- Location
- BaWü
Most genderbending stories I read have it as plot starting point so there is no earlier established characterisation.
SV has an odd problem
They didn't choose it. It's how they were born. Sexuality isn't a choice.
Well, you're not trans, so, tough. It's not a good representation. It's not a good exploration. It's shitty "hahah he's a chick now" slapstick.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yeah, it is. Bisexuality is the norm among animals, and should be the norm among humans. Mono-sexuality is an aberration. But, you know, one that culture right now supports. The ancient greeks knew the truth.
Frankly, I do believe some percentage of the population is truly monosexual... less than one in five though. Most people just claim to be monosexual because it gives them greater acceptance or whatever. I think homosexuals are more likely to be truthful about their monosexuality because homosexuality reduces acceptance... but many of them don't want to admit their bisexuality because I guess homosexuals look down on bisexuals like myself, sometimes? I've never really been part of the 'scene' just dated a few same sex people for a few years. And a few opposite sex people. I'm more attracted to personalities than bodies anyway, so whatever.
'scenes' centered around sex have always made me fairly uncomfortable. Sex is just a thing people do, and some people make a big deal about it.
Only parts of it. And parts of it are just pretty clear depictions of the fact that, no matter what happens to your body, your personality is largely unrelated.
If my down below changed tomorrow, my first worries would be getting a new drivers licence, identity, and proving that this thing happened to me in a world in which it's not really physically possible for you to go to sleep one sex then waking up another. Then a few months to adjust for differences in height and center of balance... I'm not really sure how well my spouse would take it. My spouse claims to be a mono-sexual, but only looks at porn of their non-preferred sex. So... yeah. And then it would become the new normal, that's how basically every life event works: Eventually it becomes the new status-quo. You get used to it, you adjust.
Ranma has adjusted to his curse, I see that as something a stoic such as myself should look up to: He can randomly lose several inches of height, throwing off both his balance and stride at the same time, or randomly gain them. It's a pretty rough way to live, really.
And frankly, Gender identity is just another thing people do because other people do it. It's just an illusion: Males don't have to be men, females don't have to be women. And really shouldn't be, the ideals that gender identity supports seem to be inherently destructive. Society shouldn't view men and women as irreconcilably different, we're more alike than we are unalike. Whatever rules and frameworks are used to design society should be identical for males and females, as the differences are so small.
When the technology exists to do so, I fully expect humans to be swapping out crotches whenever they want.
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Your experiences and assumptions are not representative of how people work. Stop acting like they are.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Nobody's experiences and assumptions are perfect representations. And, frankly, I'm pretty sure mine are accurate, just as you are sure yours are accurate. That's kinda how being human works, you know? We all believe that our truth is more true than anyone else's. It's not. But even knowing that, we can't help but believe it. That's the glory of being people, you know?
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Many people, even most, like to think of themselves as normal, and that is fine. It's even fairly true that when dealing with other humans they will be mostly like you.
However, that just underscores the absurdity of assuming that nearly every other person on the planet is some deluded nutter who is actually deep down just like you, but totally in denial about it. Why on earth should most people happen to fundamentally agree with you on matters of sex and gender, but be so much less insightful than you that they think they aren't? To assume they are similar to you in subjective matters yet objectively dumber, less enlightened, less aware of the truth, and more in denial is remarkably arrogant. It is foolish, near certainly untrue, and an excellent strategy for making enemies. Even supposing you are right, telling people ''lol fuck you you are wrong about any element of yourself that differs from the equivalent elements of myself" does not sound, naturally enough, like deep wisdom of a brilliant wiseman. It sounds like the bias of a closeminded asshole who thinks they are better than everyone else for no good reason.
This makes it a way to make enemies, get people to dig in and deny you, and seek to silence and hurt you. Even if we assume you are right about everything, this is the opposite of good strategy. It is evidently foolish, unless all you seek is gloating self gratification. In which case, well. Good for you. Learn to put up with other people being pissed off if you consider it worth it so you can gloat. Cause you can't have it both ways, where you behave without regard for being diplomatic and social and then get the benefits of talking to people in a polite, respectful manner.
However, that just underscores the absurdity of assuming that nearly every other person on the planet is some deluded nutter who is actually deep down just like you, but totally in denial about it. Why on earth should most people happen to fundamentally agree with you on matters of sex and gender, but be so much less insightful than you that they think they aren't? To assume they are similar to you in subjective matters yet objectively dumber, less enlightened, less aware of the truth, and more in denial is remarkably arrogant. It is foolish, near certainly untrue, and an excellent strategy for making enemies. Even supposing you are right, telling people ''lol fuck you you are wrong about any element of yourself that differs from the equivalent elements of myself" does not sound, naturally enough, like deep wisdom of a brilliant wiseman. It sounds like the bias of a closeminded asshole who thinks they are better than everyone else for no good reason.
This makes it a way to make enemies, get people to dig in and deny you, and seek to silence and hurt you. Even if we assume you are right about everything, this is the opposite of good strategy. It is evidently foolish, unless all you seek is gloating self gratification. In which case, well. Good for you. Learn to put up with other people being pissed off if you consider it worth it so you can gloat. Cause you can't have it both ways, where you behave without regard for being diplomatic and social and then get the benefits of talking to people in a polite, respectful manner.
mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
People Do A Gender because it matters to them. I didn't exactly transition because I thought it would be fun. You're being very dismissive of people who feel strongly about their identified gender, @Tithed_Verse.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Sorry. I'll bow out of this discussion then. It's just... my perspective and their perspective has basically nothing in common. But I do think that in real life if people were subjected to a gender bending... they'd mostly get used to it, so I feel that works that handle it well are ones where the person eventually gets used to their new body.
And I do think that "doing a gender" is pretty self destructive. The happiest people I know are the people who don't care what's tomboyish, or sissy, or whatever. And I do mean 'don't care'. Not 'rebelling against them' not 'trying to follow the rules' just 'letting their life chips fall where they lay'. Those are the happy people.
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mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
>sorry I'll bow out and stop
>lmao lemme tell you I think your identity is inherently self-destructive
would you care to pick one
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I'll bow out. Sorry. I'ma dumbass >.<
- Location
- New Delhi, India
Actually, why don't we try to promote SV amongst more groups of people?
Making it more broadly accessible and having more kinds of people on it is ultimately more of a boon than a curse, and besides that getting new perspectives on stuff would be interesting, at the very least.
Making it more broadly accessible and having more kinds of people on it is ultimately more of a boon than a curse, and besides that getting new perspectives on stuff would be interesting, at the very least.
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
One of the issues I've been trying to figure out how to even ask, much less handle, is the oddly popular plot point in fiction of a person who is, by all accounts either non-queer or generally uninterested in such (ie their sexuality is irrelevant and unmentioned in the story), who is nevertheless pretending very hard to be a member of the opposite gender for reasons that have very little to do with gender dysphoria.
This seems to happen mostly to female characters who have to pretend to be male, often (but not always) due to being in a patriarchal society. If whatever Dramatic Backstory hadn't happened, they would be happily (relatively speaking) living as a woman, but due to that Backstory, they now have to pretend to be a man, and are so much into that role that they are almost indistinguishable (both in-universe and out-of-universe) from a male character.
(I've also seen a few examples of male characters who have to pretend to be female, but those seem to be more about gender dysphoria, either explicitly or implicitly.)
The important point is not that they want to dress up as a man, but that circumstances lead to them having to take on another role that just happens to require male coding, and this is for the long-term (rather than one-off disguises).
The example I'm thinking of is from FFXIV, where a (former) major antagonist, Nael van Darnus, who is usually shown only in concealing armour, is revealed to have actually been his sister, Eula Darnus, who was pretending to be Nael to avenge his death through politics. The English localization had no idea this was the case until quite late, and so referred to "Nael" with male pronouns even when "Nael" was unmasked and turned out to be a woman (some magic resurrection and monstrous reconstruction was involved, hence the confusion).
So now I have no idea how to refer to Nael (who is, in the game story, now very definitely dead). And I think this topic has some broader usage outside that one specific case, such as with characters like Charles/Charlotte Dunois from Infinite Stratos (pretending to be male for national pride and publicity), or Heath/Fie from Second Path In Life (pretending to be male to become a knight).
This seems to happen mostly to female characters who have to pretend to be male, often (but not always) due to being in a patriarchal society. If whatever Dramatic Backstory hadn't happened, they would be happily (relatively speaking) living as a woman, but due to that Backstory, they now have to pretend to be a man, and are so much into that role that they are almost indistinguishable (both in-universe and out-of-universe) from a male character.
(I've also seen a few examples of male characters who have to pretend to be female, but those seem to be more about gender dysphoria, either explicitly or implicitly.)
The important point is not that they want to dress up as a man, but that circumstances lead to them having to take on another role that just happens to require male coding, and this is for the long-term (rather than one-off disguises).
The example I'm thinking of is from FFXIV, where a (former) major antagonist, Nael van Darnus, who is usually shown only in concealing armour, is revealed to have actually been his sister, Eula Darnus, who was pretending to be Nael to avenge his death through politics. The English localization had no idea this was the case until quite late, and so referred to "Nael" with male pronouns even when "Nael" was unmasked and turned out to be a woman (some magic resurrection and monstrous reconstruction was involved, hence the confusion).
So now I have no idea how to refer to Nael (who is, in the game story, now very definitely dead). And I think this topic has some broader usage outside that one specific case, such as with characters like Charles/Charlotte Dunois from Infinite Stratos (pretending to be male for national pride and publicity), or Heath/Fie from Second Path In Life (pretending to be male to become a knight).
Okay. Let's say someone stabs you in the leg. You're in pain, and bleeding. How would you feel if someone else told you, while you are slowly bleeding to death, that it's fine, everyone they know who ever got a leg injury got used to it, you'll get used to it too, I know a guy who broke his leg and he's fine now.
Because that's you right now. You're the person talking about things they don't grasp to people actually dealing with a real problem that you can't seem to distinguish from being a problem.
No, that's a much better way to put it. "All the people I know don't have problems. Why do you choose to have a problem?"
We didn't choose to feel like this, and if we could stop, we would. Stop acting like we just need to get over the way our brains work.
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Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Staff Notice - I don't like people saying they'll leave and then not leaving.
That's a pretty bad example. You're basically describing my childhood there. That's what I grew up with my father doing, you know, so... eh. I'd feel like I was at home. It weirds me out when people get concerned about my physical health just because I have a nosebleed, or I keep clutching at my head during a migraine. It's like "I can still work, really, I don't need medical treatment. Yes, I know my eyes aren't focusing, it'll pass, it's just a migraine, let me work". Frankly, I turned out pretty well for it. I don't work when I'm gonna throw up, though. Rather not get vomit on my keyboard. It's a bitch to clean out.
I've walked on a broken foot (and failed to notice my foot was broken, this was recent), and had swimming lessons, in a chlorinated pool, with gashes all the way up the sides of my fingers (childhood). I've walked on broken glass, fucked up my feet, and not noticed(Childhood). I lived through whooping cough (highschool). About the worst physical pain I had was my ear infection, which did have me literally rolling on the floor for an hour, but then it stopped hurting, and I stopped hearing out of that ear, and I got up and felt better. For the most part, physical pain is transitory, and fairly easy to ignore. I don't really get what fuss about physical pain is either.
I do understand emotional pain, especially the pain of ostracism and the urge to fit in, that's about the only thing that can actually, really, hurt. But you're happier if you just do you, and don't try to label anything you're doing. Applying labels to yourself is self-harm, and applying them to others is disingenuous.
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- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Physical pain is a blunt signal things are bad. Walking on a broken foot is likely to further damage. Taking care of yourself generally leads to you being more functional and less damaged. Like, you being alive doesn't prove these things aren't making things worse for you.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The thing is that that might apply to you. And that's great. But we're not you. Maybe for you, the idea of "labeling anything you're doing" is harmful. Maybe for you the whole idea of "doing a gender" is something that seems silly or self-destructive (which outright hurts but I'm setting that aside). But keep in mind that the rest of us are also human beings who have different senses of self and have different brains thus handle these things really differently. For you it might be easy to say "well, just stop?" But we can't. It's part of who we are, it's part of how our brains function, and we can't just set that aside, and that's something that you don't seem to get since your solution is just "Don't make it a big deal?" Like for us it's just some option that we're not taking out of blind obstinacy, instead of it being something that is simply not an option for us.
We. Are. Not. You. Stop it. Stop it stop it stop it. Stop telling people to stop being who they are because being you is better. STOP. IT. Never do it again. The literal only possible result of what you are doing is to hurt and anger people. You are not helping. You are hurting. Stop it.
Shwaggy
Weapon of Math Instruction
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- he/him/his
So I mainly wanted to post just to show that a rando can in fact wander in here and read the thread before saying anything! (also because that took way too long to slog through to just leave). So, thanks for putting this out there to discuss! I even learned an aspect of subconscious thought I hadn't considered (the "purity of lesbian love" as a kind of infantilization bit, I'll be thinking on that.)
Also thanks for putting together the rec thread, I'd never have found Always Human without it, and that would have been a crying shame.
Anyway, I don't have any wise words or interesting solutions that y'all haven't already talked about, so just...thanks.
Also thanks for putting together the rec thread, I'd never have found Always Human without it, and that would have been a crying shame.
Anyway, I don't have any wise words or interesting solutions that y'all haven't already talked about, so just...thanks.
Vyslanté
The self is a prison
- Location
- European Union
The only self-harm involved in your post is your downright destructive tendency to ignore pain.
Private Lee O'Malley
Easygoing Egoist
- Location
- Gensokyo
Tithed Verse said they were gonna bow out, let's leave 'em alone now eh?
Alert: Alert
- Pronouns
- He/Him
alert
@Tithed_Verse has been threadbanned. I have little patience for people who say they're leaving a discussion, only to go 'and another thing!' moments later.
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Ritterin Sophia
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- A den of iniquity.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There's actually some confusion, debate, and research into how transitioning can affect sexual orientation in the trans community.
Confusion around changing sexual orientation for trans people
Transgender Transitioning and Change of Self-Reported Sexual Orientation
The most compelling reason I've heard is they were repressing their attraction and transitioning to living as the gender they identify as allows them to open up to the possibility of being attracted to the opposite gender since it's more socially acceptable to be attracted to them. Though, I'll admit that's because anecdotally this has been the case for me, I've always been bisexual but the only men I've been attracted to haveexclusively been more femme and androgynous men, but since beginning the process of transitioning I've found myself being more openly sexually attracted to more masculine men than before*. So hypothetically someone who was repressing a same sex attraction (or opposite in the case of transfolk who don't recognize it) really hard who was suddenly genderflipped might be more open to allowing themselves to express that attraction since it's more socially acceptable. But please don't take this as authoritative, because, like I said, it's still a pretty big mystery in the trans community and the sociological circles that study that kind of thing.
*Still dig other girls more, though.
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- Location
- Los Angles
Note: accidentally deleted my post.
As a male writer, I would like to know the best way to write gay or lesbian characters.
As a male writer, I would like to know the best way to write gay or lesbian characters.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
A good first step is to think of us as people. Not kidding. Don't demean us or put us on a pedestal, just treat us as a person. And then build from there- if they are a person, how would they react to this situation? What would they feel? How could a potential relationship work? All that good stuff. This is all important because it builds a foundation.
Of course, one shouldn't treat them identical to a heterosexual couple either; that has its own problems. Try to think about how the relationship might be different; how might these characters vary because of the differences in your relationship? Craft your characters and ask yourself how they would function in such a relationship? How would it work?
It's also definitely worth exploring queer culture, because your gay, lesbian, pan, etc. character is most likely to be. If you want that heavy ring of authenticity, it's really good to incorporate elements from there into your character that seem to fit, and overall do your best to make it feel natural. Which can of course be rather problematic if done wrong, so the most important step...
if you have a lesbian or gay or pan or etc friend or somebody that would be wiliing to look voer your work- ask them to! Be humble and willing to accept their criticism, if they have any, and if you have any questions relevant to the story feel free to ask! This person is going to be incredibly useful to you because they provide the key perspective that you lack, and overall make it so that your story most likely doesn't have heavily probematic connotations, but is instead at least somewhat accurate and overall satisfying. It'd be even better if you can get more than one non-straight person to run it by, but one is good enough.
- Location
- Nowhere
- Pronouns
- She/her
There's actually some confusion, debate, and research into how transitioning can affect sexual orientation in the trans community.
Confusion around changing sexual orientation for trans people
Transgender Transitioning and Change of Self-Reported Sexual Orientation
The most compelling reason I've heard is they were repressing their attraction and transitioning to living as the gender they identify as allows them to open up to the possibility of being attracted to the opposite gender since it's more socially acceptable to be attracted to them. Though, I'll admit that's because anecdotally this has been the case for me, I've always been bisexual but the only men I've been attracted to haveexclusively been more femme and androgynous men, but since beginning the process of transitioning I've found myself being more openly sexually attracted to more masculine men than before*. So hypothetically someone who was repressing a same sex attraction (or opposite in the case of transfolk who don't recognize it) really hard who was suddenly genderflipped might be more open to allowing themselves to express that attraction since it's more socially acceptable. But please don't take this as authoritative, because, like I said, it's still a pretty big mystery in the trans community and the sociological circles that study that kind of thing.
*Still dig other girls more, though.
While your point has merit, I don't think you should discount the way body envy and body dysphoria can influence sexual attraction. Prior to transition hating your body and its sexual characteristics could make it harder for you to realize attraction to the same gender. Since the traditionally attractive elements would likely match up with your own dysphoria and society's assumption that everyone's straight, it could be easy to miss that your attracted to someone. Further more body envy can be mistaken for attraction as well, creating a situation where as you transition and your dysphoria lessens you end up realizing your actual attraction.
Source: I'm really Trans and really Gay, but it took me a long time to seperate out the attraction from the body envy.
There's already been a really good response to this, so I'll try to avoid repeating what they already said.
In nine out of ten situations your queer character is going to act exactly the same as a straight character. We're people first and foremost. Make sure your character has a personality and interests beyond being queer. When your write a character like that it comes off as being representative for brownie points rather than actually trying to write a queer character.
Try to read up on harmful tropes that are done with queer characters so you don't repeat them. Especially since some of them only seem harmful when taking a look at the bigger picture.
Another big thing to avoid is oversexualizing queer relationships. This either comes off as you trying to show how your such a great ally, or it comes off as a creepy fetish. but don't go super far in the other direction and try to overly minimize the relationship either. Like most things try to find a happy middle, only the far extremes are really bad.
If your trying to write about a part of the queer experience that you don't feel qualified to write about, do research. Read blogs, personal stories, and if at all possible try talking to someone whose experienced what you want to write about. Try to find another writer who can either help you or read over your attempt. If after all that you still don't feel comfortable broaching a topic, then don't. No ones going to blame you.
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