ZerbanDaGreat
Daemon Noble of D E M O G R A P H I C S
- Pronouns
- They/them
Rule 3: Please do not address others like this.
SV has an odd problem
Hyacinthium
Writing about sad cannibals as we speak.
- Location
- Bedroom
- Pronouns
- He/Him
While I understand the frustration, it's probably best not to use cursing at all considering the reminders at the bottom.
Which goes a bit double for people that are coming in and being dismissive of the problem.
Which goes a bit double for people that are coming in and being dismissive of the problem.
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thank you for remaining courteous and polite.
Yeah, i get what you want and are trying to accomplish, i just don't get how having more stories involving gay male couples will help the issue, the whole idea of "normalising" is so vague and unproven that i personally doubt that simply having more gay characters and stories will help as the people who drop stories due to them having a prominent gay couple won't simply stop doing so because there are more stories that have gay couples in them.
in the very long run i suppose i can see it helping as the people who drop those stories will stop using this site either due to disliking the majority of the content that is being put out, maturing from the media or just dying from old age, but forcing gay couples into every story just seems implausible and doing so would only drive people away which isn't something i'd support.
not only that but it still doesn't answer my question about what it would do about the actual fetishism of lesbian couples within the stories written, even if the amount of well written romance stories with homosexual couples increases to the point where they are more present that the fetishised stories, people will still both write their own fantasies and people will still prefer to read things that they like and enjoy, some people just enjoy reading power-wank stories where some overpowered dude get's a giant harem of beautiful women who are all okay fucking both him and his other mistresses.
Do it
- Location
- Hell
- Pronouns
- She/Her
ZerbanDaGreat
Daemon Noble of D E M O G R A P H I C S
- Pronouns
- They/them
Every. Single. Thing. You have said. Has been discussed.
Which you would know.
If you read.
The fucking.
Thread.
Selwyn
Tomorrow Will Come
- Location
- Mongolia
This is like society in a microcosm. It's nothing but a bunch of ignorant people running in to spout the exact same thing over and over again, when people have already discussed that point and the information is readily available. Said person will then huff angrily when people don't want to spoon feed them.
This thread is nothing more than Straight Men (tm) bait now.
This thread is nothing more than Straight Men (tm) bait now.
keios
very normal
- Location
- US
:/ But there isn't an effort to force gay relationships into every story?
Backing up, I think sometimes things have to have a wide ranging discussion, where multiple angles are raised without a necessary agenda. This thread means there's a conversation, and users who are bothered by fetishization in the F/F on this site know of a thread/subcommunity which is trying to address the issue. Ditto for users who have been harassed for writing M/M.
I think it's true that there are people who the solutions and strategies offered/implemented in this thread won't reach, but quite a few posters (here's an excellent post by Sir Bill as an example) have chimed in by talking about how normalization and discussion have changed their previous attitudes.
There's also been the hope expressed in this thread that by drawing more attention to (good) M/M and encouraging authors to write it, the site as a whole will gain not only more M/M fics proportionally, but more M/M readers bc SV become a place to find good M/M. That's on top of the attitude change from the more willing current readers evidenced from above, which would already mean more readership (and thus more incentive for authors to write M/M).
The culmination of this thread's brainstorming like 20 pages ago was a new stickied thread on top of Fanfiction Discussion for the curated LGBTQ recs and a Discord to discuss them. I think it should be fairly obvious how it's aimed at addressing some of the things I mentioned above.
edit:
I think there is often a demand for solutions or strategies to FIX EVERYTHING. But this often means you don't solve anything at all, especially with tricky cultural attitude things, because no single solution can fix it all. The issue of the people we can't reach, who really just will drop M/M because they are homophobic and refuse to change, is one that is currently unaddressed. But you never know which readers dropping M/M in stories right now are ones who flatly refuse to read any. Basically, the efforts right now are aimed at availability and spotlighting, and these are useful in their own way.
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Mechasaurian
Big Bossu
- Location
- Lost among fields of history
- Pronouns
- They/Them
My word. Reading through this thread front to back was quite the experience. I'm glad I went through with it, though.
I've seen the mere suggestion for more M/M fics and gay male protagonists be met with hostility that I simply did not expect from this site.
I've seen the rise and fall of the D E M O G R A P H I C S.
I've seen people be shitty about this to the face of people such as Zerban and Tenfold, writers who I respect quite a bit (even if I doubt they know I exist), and many other queer people looking for someplace to feel welcome on the internet.
I've seen the sheer incandescent glory that is the P I N K F L A M I N G O E S post (if only because someone kindly messaged it to me). "GOD KNOWS WHAT REVLID DID" has finally been dethroned. Best comedy 2018, everyone else should just give up.
And, hearteningly, I've seen the people of Sufficient Velocity step up again and again to say "this is not okay, this needs to be changed, we can and will find some way to move against the current." No matter how many fools came your way, you lot did not suffer them gladly. Thank you for reminding me as to (one of the main reasons) I frequent SV.
As for me? Well...
I'm far more of a reader than I am a writer. So I'll read. I'll step outside of my comfort zone - one I was not fully aware I had - and read something with...let's go with a gay male protagonist. That should be interesting. I'll read, I'll provide a bit of traffic, I'll leave likes on stuff I like, and I might leave a comment or five.
I'm off to the Pink Flamingo Cabal thread. Best of luck to you all.
I've seen the mere suggestion for more M/M fics and gay male protagonists be met with hostility that I simply did not expect from this site.
I've seen the rise and fall of the D E M O G R A P H I C S.
I've seen people be shitty about this to the face of people such as Zerban and Tenfold, writers who I respect quite a bit (even if I doubt they know I exist), and many other queer people looking for someplace to feel welcome on the internet.
I've seen the sheer incandescent glory that is the P I N K F L A M I N G O E S post (if only because someone kindly messaged it to me). "GOD KNOWS WHAT REVLID DID" has finally been dethroned. Best comedy 2018, everyone else should just give up.
And, hearteningly, I've seen the people of Sufficient Velocity step up again and again to say "this is not okay, this needs to be changed, we can and will find some way to move against the current." No matter how many fools came your way, you lot did not suffer them gladly. Thank you for reminding me as to (one of the main reasons) I frequent SV.
As for me? Well...
I'm far more of a reader than I am a writer. So I'll read. I'll step outside of my comfort zone - one I was not fully aware I had - and read something with...let's go with a gay male protagonist. That should be interesting. I'll read, I'll provide a bit of traffic, I'll leave likes on stuff I like, and I might leave a comment or five.
I'm off to the Pink Flamingo Cabal thread. Best of luck to you all.
- Location
- Austria
tbch dragons are clearly a metaphor for robber barons - hoarding the wealth without ever using it just because they can and murdering everyone who tries to take away anything to actually use it for something more productive than lounging on the pile of gold - so, well.
We must eat the dragons.
All these posts will be lost in time, like flamingos in the rain.
Time to shitpost.
- Location
- Somewhere
I liked Council of Wyrms, where the hoard actually meant something. That was their XP. If they got robbed and didn't replace it within a certain time limit, they actually got weaker, conversely, a cunning dragon who found ways to get rich quicker could skyrocket to Great Wyrm power levels much faster than normal. Plus that setting was fairly unique in that estate management and feudal politics were actually a major part of the game. And of course, you got to play as dragons.tbch dragons are clearly a metaphor for robber barons - hoarding the wealth without ever using it just because they can and murdering everyone who tries to take away anything to actually use it for something more productive than lounging on the pile of gold - so, well.
We must eat the dragons.
All these posts will be lost in time, like flamingos in the rain.
Time to shitpost.
Selwyn
Tomorrow Will Come
- Location
- Mongolia
Great Greedy Guts
Ceterum censeo Vigilam esse delendam.
For all that I was joking, I would like to think that at least threadmarking the first post (and thus having the little arrow pointing out new threadmarks, and a larger indicator of those threadmarks existing) could potentially help.
I'm not sure I can actually think it'll work, but I'd really, really like to.
Anon̦̦
[Verified Girl]
- Location
- '̸̛͘͢;̶̧̕'̴̨͝͠;̢͡-̶͘-̴̀͟͟'́͘͟͟͜;̨̀/̷̧͏̴̢'̴̢̕;̸̛͟͢
Eh, I don't even want to rant about everything else. But let me give you a quick reply about this.
LOTR mythology is very clear. Elves are Tolkien's exalted christiandom to the extreme. They literally vanish if they have sex outside marriage (which by Tolkien own words mean the union of two people to have babies), and as seen with Arwen and the other 3 elves that we know of, an elf that tries to have any other kind of romance outside elvenkind
Which I really doubt is something she would do just for her bestie. Though you can also retcon her out, then Aragorn needs to do his duty as a king... So you also need to deal with his feelings regarding adultery since he was raised by elves. You can make them gay, yes. But you can't ignore everything else about the setting.
Curious fact, elves can marry whenever they want and without witnesses. They kind of just do the thing and get married. But they are strictly monogamous (as said above, they vanish otherwise)
If you want to make some Legolas smut, go ahead. But if you try to make a real story while trying to care about the source there are many points that shouldn't be ignored. Like the simple fact that he either gives his immortality or just haves a completely platonic relationship.
So yeah, Elves do give many shits. But none of them are about gay elfs, you can bet all of them would mourn and support a gay elf existence since he wouldn't be able to find real happiness in marriage or a partner within their own.
We are talking about literary characters, not people.
So yeah, if you take, let's say: Jiraiya and suddenly make him gay, you can't completely ignore his background as a serial womanizer and self-acclaimed super pervert. You can just say, I dunno that he was afraid of his own sexuality. But you need to deal with that and not ignore it.
And absolutely, definitely, not just make a character gay out of nowhere in the middle of a fic, which was what I said.
You either put some foreshadowing, or just goddam say it since the beggining at the very least. Because when you find a good fanfic and then 8 chapters in the character, absolutely out of nowhere, becomes gay and starts pinning for the dark edgy antagonist boi almost to the point of genre shift, you definitely need a reason for it. And that is one of the biggest faults of gay stories I find.
And this is not only for m/m, but also f/f, and heck, just characters in name only. You need to write against the Willing Suspension of Disbelief from the readers.
And that is called literary consistence. When you are reading fanfiction, you have the notion that any fictional concepts, characters, or settings borrowed from other works should behave as they do in those works.
If they don't, you need at least a reason (which is the basis of most fanfics "let's change this for this because of this"), or to tag it at the very least AU and explain that.
@no.
A few suggestions to help the @Mechasaurians as they discover this thread:
1. Threadmark the first post. I didn't even think to check that this thread had threadmarks until I noticed someone mention it.
2. Include a threadmarked post (or edit the first post) to includes a link to the new thread.
3. Maybe threadmark a few of the particularly informative posts?
I mean, this won't prevent those who would just jump to the end and start reprising old arguments or whining about how M/M is icky from doing so.
What it will do is let more open minded people who see the OP and think "this is a minefield" get to the relevant bits sooner.
Huh, pays to notice the "there have been new posts while you were working on this" feature sometimes.
I definitely think having the first post threadmarked would increase awareness, and hope that it will offer people who would otherwise be reluctant to enter the thread based on the likely reaction of the internet to the subject matter an easier way in.
A few suggestions to help the @Mechasaurians as they discover this thread:
1. Threadmark the first post. I didn't even think to check that this thread had threadmarks until I noticed someone mention it.
2. Include a threadmarked post (or edit the first post) to includes a link to the new thread.
3. Maybe threadmark a few of the particularly informative posts?
I mean, this won't prevent those who would just jump to the end and start reprising old arguments or whining about how M/M is icky from doing so.
What it will do is let more open minded people who see the OP and think "this is a minefield" get to the relevant bits sooner.
Huh, pays to notice the "there have been new posts while you were working on this" feature sometimes.
I definitely think having the first post threadmarked would increase awareness, and hope that it will offer people who would otherwise be reluctant to enter the thread based on the likely reaction of the internet to the subject matter an easier way in.
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greatoz
Debonair Djinni
- Location
- The Other Place
I...hold on, are you saying that elves can marry whoever they want...but a gay elf wouldn't be able to find happiness in marriage? Do elves also disappear if more than one of them has the same sexuality?
- Location
- HELL
- Pronouns
- They/It
This says you have no idea how storytelling works. Nobody cares about the obscure lore intricacies of whatever story, as long as the story you ultimately tell is good.
Canon compliance is fine as long as you keep the themes intact, but going to insane lengths to keep yourself 200% canon is not only counterproductive to telling an interesting, transformative fanfiction, it's also just a waste of effort.
That's not even taking into account that sometimes a writer can just fuck up.
That happens pretty frequently. Writers are people. They fuck up. They have bad elements.
There is nothing wrong with cutting out stupid plot points and playing with certain elements of stories. There's nothing wrong with changing a character's skin color or sexuality or changing how a society works if that society implies some horrible, horrible shit.
And I can guarantee that 99% of readers don't care. They just want to read a good story starring their favorite characters.
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no.
Pink Flamingo Cabal Grand Vizier
- Location
- Pennsylvania
The link to the curated thread is already threadmarked. I will threadmark the first post as well.
Selwyn
Tomorrow Will Come
- Location
- Mongolia
Gay elf marries another gay elf. Arwen doesn't fuck Aragorn.
Wow. Amaze.
Tolkien's idea of marriage can go choke. We can even do better and just give the middle finger to this dumbass idea so it never exists.
Jiraiya is pan now, he is a people-izer. Easy.
Look, I get your point. Being gay isn't something you just do willfully and cackle around with - it should affect a character. It should be done respectfully and thoughtfully, especially if you're an author who should know better. But also... sometimes you can just make a character be gay and that's that. You can just abandon the stations of canon and rewrite it, new and improved.
But you come off so condescending that your points are weakened by your tone.
- Location
- Land of the Midday Sun
And yet we have Legolas and Gimli that, after Aragorn's death, went, built a boat together and together sailed to the Undying Lands. Tell me straight that there's no kind of relationship between the two, I dare you.
- Location
- Somewhere
Don't think Tolkien mentioned homosexuality at all. He just made the elves completely monogamous. Which doesn't preclude them being gay, just means that they still have only one partner. They were also more meant to be lesser angels more than "exalted christians", with the "lose their immortality for mating outside the species" looking to me like an enochian reference to the Nephilim and the angels who were punished for sleeping with human women.
Okay, here's what things look like to me.
1. You have opinions about what makes a good fic. One of your criteria is that changes, to characters or setting or whatever, are handled in such a way that the end result is a cohesive story.
2. You have encountered fics that handled changing a character's orientation poorly, and have noted that for some characters changing their orientation can create plotholes/clash with the setting if other changes are not made.
2.1. Sometimes people create parings which just seem to make no god damn sense even if the characters involved had compatible orientations.
2.2. Sometimes every other fic of a setting or story you like is one of these nonsensical pairings.
2.3. Sometimes you see "Kaladin/Renarin" and you just know that every single goddamn one of those pieces of shit is going to be a pile of hurt/comfort woobie bullshit that utterly mangles every character involved. I mean seriously, what the fuck?
2.4. Erhm... back on track:
3. You tried to express that opinion in this thread. It didn't go well.
4. Now people are feeling defensive and talking past each other.
Assuming that is right, I'd suggest:
1. Just step back for a moment.
2. Remember that the criteria you have for what makes a good fic are not held by everyone.
3. That's okay, and it isn't what this thread is about.
4. Remember that if you see a fic on these boards that you like but which contains elements you think are being handled poorly, you're in an environment where you can offer constructive criticism pretty easily.
5. Remember that Kaladin/Renarin shippers are just the victims of the Mi-Go having trouble reaclimating to having a body again, and thus deserve our sympathy and understanding.
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Ritterin Sophia
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- A den of iniquity.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Tolkien doesn't have a monopoly on elves, it may be a huge inspiration of the high fantasy genre and especially on D&D but we've moved on in the past over a half century. FFS the most popular tabletop setting, Pathfinder's Golarian, has elves that use fucking stargates and rapid adaptive evolution. Like no one cares about being 100% faithful to Tolkien, even the media produced based on Tolkien's work is made better ignoring it as evident by Shadow of Mordor shitting all over the canon and being the most successful LOTR game. Stop looking for reasons why authors can't do a thing if it's enjoyable.
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- Location
- Somewhere
That's more because LOTR doesn't make for a good game because of how little actual "action" takes place compared to talking than an endorsement of the piece of shit game.
If you want elves though, you might try FR ones, as they were apparently pretty open sexually. To the extent that switching biological sex for a party was considered "normal" for wealthy young nobles, and they considered humans to be too uptight about gender roles. (See Elminster, Making of a Mage). That setting even has canonically homophobic villains in the Red Wizards of Thay.
- Location
- East of the Sun and West of the Moon
It is frankly weirder that some of them can breed outside the animal kingdom without shapeshifting.