Hence, if I'm reading about a female, I don't want to read about her developing romantic feelings for another guy. I just can't relate, because I'm straight, so I don't enjoy it. Hence, I reckon why f/f is so popular.

Think about what you're saying and legitimately turn over how much self-denial has to go into this thought process. I'll help.

1. Does this only pertain to romance?

You can't relate to being a man who's in love with someone else? Or you can only relate to people who are attracted to human women? So does this mean that any character in a story who isn't attracted to human women means you can't read it because you can't relate? Or is it only, somehow, for the pov character?

If it's just the PoV character, what happens if there's multiple? Is there a ratio you have to work out for it to be acceptable? 2 straight to 1 gay? 3 straight to 1 gay? What happens if one of the PoV characters is bisexual? Do they count as half-a-gay, a full gay, or 'nominally straight'? And if they count as 'nominally straight' does it only last as long as they are [Something romantic] with a woman?

For that matter, what about stories with straight PoV characters who are women? Do you relate to that? Learning about women and their struggles and their thoughts and- if it's good- their hatred for being objectified into pieces of meat? Or do you somehow bypass it because "I'm attracted to women, here's a women, all is good"?

What happens when aliens or otherwise non-human PoV characters exist? If you read Worm, there was an interlude (ignore the ones with the non-het humans, roll with me on this, in case you didn't finish as a result) with a non-human PoV who had no identifiable sexual attraction/compulsion whatsoever. Would you be able to relate to this? Would it be because "they're man in appearance, I'm man, it works" (no sarcasm, v srs)? Or if you couldn't, what would be the reason? Would it be because they're not sexually attracted to anything? Because they identify as 'they' instead of anything else? Because they look like Jesus but only if he was white-gold and we all know that Jesus was black, Ronald Reagan was the devil, and 9/11 was an inside job?

Hmm. What happens if your f/f slips up and turns into f/m? Or, for instance, f.? How do ace, trans, bi, or any other figure I might've forgotten to mention factor into this?

How extensive is this list of "things I only read if I relate to someone wanting to sex women, like me" of yours?

2. Does this only pertain to sexuality?

If the characters are- I'm gonna give a guess at some things here, correct me if I'm wrong- black, Irish, and living in Oakland, would you be unable to relate and therefore unable to read it? Let's pull back, if they were just living in [Not where you live] would you be able to relate and thus read the story? If they were from [Not where you're from] would you be able to relate and thus read the story? If they were [Not your race] would you face the same issues?

Is the only thing that prevents you from relating to a story whether or not you and the PoV character want to have sex with the same characters? Even if they're fictional characters that exist purely on a piece of paper or a computer? I'm a black man from Texas in Portland writing this, would you be able to read this and relate, even though you aren't that specific collection of things? And if you can, anyway, then what makes love and displays of affection any different?

If you've looked at all of these questions and come to the same conclusion I have, then you'd realize that it's pretty silly to base whether or not you enjoy a story on whether or not you and the MC are attracted to the same people, when most of the times, you'll be reading about people who are completely different from you in almost every other way. It might take practice, but I think it'd be worthwhile in the end. You might find some m/m stories that you really enjoy that you wouldn't have otherwise.
 
Think about what you're saying and legitimately turn over how much self-denial has to go into this thought process. I'll help.

1. Does this only pertain to romance?

You can't relate to being a man who's in love with someone else? Or you can only relate to people who are attracted to human women? So does this mean that any character in a story who isn't attracted to human women means you can't read it because you can't relate? Or is it only, somehow, for the pov character?

If it's just the PoV character, what happens if there's multiple? Is there a ratio you have to work out for it to be acceptable? 2 straight to 1 gay? 3 straight to 1 gay? What happens if one of the PoV characters is bisexual? Do they count as half-a-gay, a full gay, or 'nominally straight'? And if they count as 'nominally straight' does it only last as long as they are [Something romantic] with a woman?

For that matter, what about stories with straight PoV characters who are women? Do you relate to that? Learning about women and their struggles and their thoughts and- if it's good- their hatred for being objectified into pieces of meat? Or do you somehow bypass it because "I'm attracted to women, here's a women, all is good"?

What happens when aliens or otherwise non-human PoV characters exist? If you read Worm, there was an interlude (ignore the ones with the non-het humans, roll with me on this, in case you didn't finish as a result) with a non-human PoV who had no identifiable sexual attraction/compulsion whatsoever. Would you be able to relate to this? Would it be because "they're man in appearance, I'm man, it works" (no sarcasm, v srs)? Or if you couldn't, what would be the reason? Would it be because they're not sexually attracted to anything? Because they identify as 'they' instead of anything else? Because they look like Jesus but only if he was white-gold and we all know that Jesus was black, Ronald Reagan was the devil, and 9/11 was an inside job?

Hmm. What happens if your f/f slips up and turns into f/m? Or, for instance, f.? How do ace, trans, bi, or any other figure I might've forgotten to mention factor into this?

How extensive is this list of "things I only read if I relate to someone wanting to sex women, like me" of yours?

2. Does this only pertain to sexuality?

If the characters are- I'm gonna give a guess at some things here, correct me if I'm wrong- black, Irish, and living in Oakland, would you be unable to relate and therefore unable to read it? Let's pull back, if they were just living in [Not where you live] would you be able to relate and thus read the story? If they were from [Not where you're from] would you be able to relate and thus read the story? If they were [Not your race] would you face the same issues?

Is the only thing that prevents you from relating to a story whether or not you and the PoV character want to have sex with the same characters? Even if they're fictional characters that exist purely on a piece of paper or a computer? I'm a black man from Texas in Portland writing this, would you be able to read this and relate, even though you aren't that specific collection of things? And if you can, anyway, then what makes love and displays of affection any different?

If you've looked at all of these questions and come to the same conclusion I have, then you'd realize that it's pretty silly to base whether or not you enjoy a story on whether or not you and the MC are attracted to the same people, when most of the times, you'll be reading about people who are completely different from you in almost every other way. It might take practice, but I think it'd be worthwhile in the end. You might find some m/m stories that you really enjoy that you wouldn't have otherwise.

I did say I am making my exit, so I would appreciate not being pinged.

No, I don't care you have a problem with it.
 
I did say I am making my exit, so I would appreciate not being pinged.

No, I don't care you have a problem with it.

In my defense, person-who-I-quoted-but-did-not-ping, I was waiting on my post to get approved by the mods so any potential saltiness (witness) wouldn't result in moderator action being taken.

I'm glad that you chose to let me know that you actually did care about healthy discourse and personal growth, though.
 
D&D and the half-Dragon template being applicable to any corporeal non-undead or non-construct tells me that this is indeed the case.


[/QUOTE]

like I said in one of the fiction threads, a dragon harem would be fun. a big, red dragon ending up with all the guys since they seem to be the type for it. mainly sort of funny, not-serious or held-down by the lore of any one series.

You can have a funny take on the harem protagonist characters:

Another red dragon
a very smart wyvern who keeps poisoning others on accident (or because he is tired of all the "true-dragons" talking down to him.
a blue dragon trying to keep order in the chaotic palace.
whatever else works also.
 
I mean

I've long wanted to play a game about being a dragon, building up your hoard, expanding and fortifying your lair into a great draconic castle. Like Stronghold, but for a dragon lair. If such a game includes a harem of draconic boytoys, well, so much the better.
 
[QUOTE="Zavvnao, post: 10608345, member: 7038"

like I said in one of the fiction threads, a dragon harem would be fun. a big, red dragon ending up with all the guys since they seem to be the type for it. mainly sort of funny, not-serious or held-down by the lore of any one series.

You can have a funny take on the harem protagonist characters:

Another red dragon
a very smart wyvern who keeps poisoning others on accident (or because he is tired of all the "true-dragons" talking down to him.
a blue dragon trying to keep order in the chaotic palace.
whatever else works also.[/QUOTE]
Would definitely read this.

Reminds me that Forgotten Realms has a Blue Dragon sorcerer (as in dragon with levels in sorcerer) who essentially has a bard fetish. Doesn't seem to care what species the bard is.
 
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I mean

I've long wanted to play a game about being a dragon, building up your hoard, expanding and fortifying your lair into a great draconic castle. Like Stronghold, but for a dragon lair. If such a game includes a harem of draconic boytoys, well, so much the better.

...quit looking at my notes!

...
...
*adds draconic boytoys*
 
Now I'm wanting to dig out my copy of Council of Wyrms. The only D&D setting where they EXPECT you to play as dragons. Edit: interestingly, per 2e Draconomicon, with red dragons, females are the ones who do the courting, and the guys love being fought over.
 
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Now I'm wanting to dig out my copy of Council of Wyrms. The only D&D setting where they EXPECT you to play as dragons. Edit: interestingly, per 2e Draconomicon, with red dragons, females are the ones who do the courting, and the guys love being fought over.
its the same in 3e, males generally stake out a territory and females fight over adjacent or overlapping territory. A gay red harem would not be out of place.
 
Would definitely read this.

I mean

I've long wanted to play a game about being a dragon, building up your hoard, expanding and fortifying your lair into a great draconic castle. Like Stronghold, but for a dragon lair. If such a game includes a harem of draconic boytoys, well, so much the better.

Fantasy - King. Stories of real dragons.
this is all on the spot. At just a prologue for now.
warning: only 10% dnd.

Now I'm wanting to dig out my copy of Council of Wyrms. The only D&D setting where they EXPECT you to play as dragons. Edit: interestingly, per 2e Draconomicon, with red dragons, females are the ones who do the courting, and the guys love being fought over.
its the same in 3e, males generally stake out a territory and females fight over adjacent or overlapping territory. A gay red harem would not be out of place.
I have had an interest in that set.
 
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The use of the Inferno in the romantic movement is politics. The fact that The Divine comedy is part of high school curriculum is heavily politics. If the Divine Comedy is shunned or part of the intellectual canon of works is politics. You aren't making a strong case for the apolitical nature of the Divine Comedy for the past 500 or so years. I mean we are talking about a case where the author is literally dead here so there is no one true reading of the work for anyone no matter what their opinion on 'death of the author' is.

To sum up my point, Dante is mega-ultra dead so no one gets to complain if you make a fanfic where Dante kisses everyone and if Dante doesn't like those politics he can rise from his grave and fight me personally. :V
I mena, you are right that the Comedy isn't an apolitical work, but that's tangential at best to the point I was trying to make.
Maybe I should made the point a bit clearer: If you want to use a work to discuss modern politics it's totally a thing you can do. You should, however, take in account that what the authour wrote is shaped by his own socioeconomical situation and cultural baggage, and those go on to shape his political views.
Tl;Dr: historical context matters a lot in writing. Don't ignore it.
 
D&D and the half-Dragon template being applicable to any corporeal non-undead or non-construct tells me that this is indeed the case.
Let me note that the Monster Manual creature types include Ooze, Plant, and Elemental. By RAW, a dragon could fuck a slime, Audrey II, or an ambulatory rock and produce offspring.

So if you wanted an m/m romance that produces kids for whatever reason, a dragon could probably make that happen for you.
 
What.

Do you think.

The past.

Fifty.

Pages.

Of this thread.

Have been.

About.

I shall go into this thread, said the brave explorer, and ask what should be done! Nevermind that there have been 50 pages of discussion, never mind that if I READ THE THREAD I would know that this is something that has been brought up and discussed in depth, I must bring it up for those foolish Gays could never think of such a matter!
While I haven't gone through all 50 pages, I've checked some, and I haven't seen any discussion the goal to be achieved, just the motivation and the process. The "why" and "how", but not the "what". That's what my question is about, what is the goal here within the context of what you consider a problem. While, yes, I personally don't believe this phenomenon to be a problem, that's completely irrelevant. You clearly consider it a problem, and something to be solved, my opinions don't factor into it. What I did want to know is what would be your end goal, what an ideal solution would accomplish.

For a succinct response, I'd say the ultimate goal would be to normalize male gay characters. Not M/M romance fics, not 'slashfics,' just get people used to there being gay characters. The idea is that when a side or more main character is revealed to be gay, it shouldn't be much more surprising than if they were straight. We want people to stop dropping shit just because there's a gay couple that aren't lesbians.

QQ people, this is what we actually want. Not to force people to read m/m centric fics. Not to desensitive yourself to gay dudes fucking. We just want to make male gays not a big deal when they come up.

EDIT: also, if you read the thread, you would know.
And thank you for an answer. A bit far reached but I did ask what's ultimately the goal after all. So essentially a change in the culture of most current readers that they become less averse to gay characters and treat them as they'd treat straight characters? Ok. Yeah, that's all I wanted to know, thanks.
 
While I haven't gone through all 50 pages, I've checked some, and I haven't seen any discussion the goal to be achieved, just the motivation and the process. The "why" and "how", but not the "what". That's what my question is about, what is the goal here within the context of what you consider a problem.

I was uncivil and I apologize. This post will be more polite.

On some level when you enter a 50 page thread, you have to pay a tax, as it were. And that tax is your time in order to get acquianted with the material already written so that you can engage in the topic in a constructive manner. Especially when the topic is as nuanced and complex as this one. Out of respect for the users that have been engaging in this debate most of or even the entire time, it's only fair for you to acquiant yourself with the material in order to not make similar arguments or miss things that have been posted. They had to commit the time to get through 50 pages of this stuff, why shouldn't you? Instead of skimming select parts (Note that the person choosing to engage with you also says that you should have read the thread first, since your answer is there), you should have been reading the whole thread diligently, in case your question was answered. As it was.
 
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Let me note that the Monster Manual creature types include Ooze, Plant, and Elemental. By RAW, a dragon could fuck a slime, Audrey II, or an ambulatory rock and produce offspring.

So if you wanted an m/m romance that produces kids for whatever reason, a dragon could probably make that happen for you.
Some dragons are also shapeshifters. I'll let that sink in for a bit.
 
What I'm seeing is that someone should make something about a big pansexual 'you name it I'll be it' dragon that rules a kingdom.

Ooze bf when

Also, Internet, stop telling me I double posted when I didn't. Thanks.
 
Maybe we need to treat this like a story or quest? Threadmark the first post, that post, a few of the better explanation posts, and at least two of the "why haven't you read the thread yet?" posts.

Surely this will solve the problem forevermore.

This isn't actually a bad suggestion (although you are right that it won't prevent people showing up to bomb the end). The threadmarked post could use a little support.

Like I just want to point out that all you het dudes who are totally het and have gay fantasies when you think of two guys kissing but you're totally straight are making this into a way bigger deal than it has to be, like if you'd just read the thread all you'd see is a couple more m/m pairings, but now you've created the SV equivalent of what happened with Anita Sarkeesian. You're bringing more attention to this thread by inflating the post count and ensuring more substantive effort is made to address the issue than would have happened if you just clammed up and stopped being terrible for one sec to appreciate a tasteful m/m relatioship or just look past it to enjoy the rest of the work, but here we are again with the Streisand Effect. In effect thank you for being so awful about this that your position becomes self-defeating.

You get an Insightful but if Funny wasn't disabled you'd be getting that, because irony is delicious.
 
What I'm seeing is that someone should make something about a big pansexual 'you name it I'll be it' dragon that rules a kingdom.

Ooze bf when

Also, Internet, stop telling me I double posted when I didn't. Thanks.
Haven't actually seen those, but there is a canon Black Dragon who has produced half dragon crocodiles and dinosaurs, an entire clan of half blue dragon hobgoblins, at least one half dragon balor. (For added fun, only male dragons can reproduce outside the species without direct divine intervention (this occured a couple times in Dragonlance), or the partner being an outsider who can also breed with anything like a demon)
 
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maybe i'm confused about the issue, but how would writing more MxM slash fic change the fetishisation of lesbian the stories in any way? i mean just because there's more MxM smut and romance on the site doesn't directly correlate with more people reading said slash fics as for many it's a big turn off (not in the sexual context) to the stories and even if more people did read male on male slash fics why would that change the existing fan base for fetishised lesbian slash fics?
 
maybe i'm confused about the issue, but how would writing more MxM slash fic change the fetishisation of lesbian the stories in any way? i mean just because there's more MxM smut and romance on the site doesn't directly correlate with more people reading said slash fics as for many it's a big turn off (not in the sexual context) to the stories and even if more people did read male on male slash fics why would that change the existing fan base for fetishised lesbian slash fics?
Is this real? Is this like, a real post? Click on page 51, and scroll to my last post, then promptly slap yourself for not reading a fucking thread and commenting anyways.
 
maybe i'm confused about the issue, but how would writing more MxM slash fic change the fetishisation of lesbian the stories in any way? i mean just because there's more MxM smut and romance on the site doesn't directly correlate with more people reading said slash fics as for many it's a big turn off (not in the sexual context) to the stories and even if more people did read male on male slash fics why would that change the existing fan base for fetishised lesbian slash fics?
I'm shit at words so I'll just quote this to explain:
For a succinct response, I'd say the ultimate goal would be to normalize male gay characters. Not M/M romance fics, not 'slashfics,' just get people used to there being gay characters. The idea is that when a side or more main character is revealed to be gay, it shouldn't be much more surprising than if they were straight. We want people to stop dropping shit just because there's a gay couple that aren't lesbians.

QQ people, this is what we actually want. Not to force people to read m/m centric fics. Not to desensitive yourself to gay dudes fucking. We just want to make male gays not a big deal when they come up.

EDIT: also, if you read the thread, you would know.
 
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