Vindictus
XENO
- Location
- Texas
He wasn't referencing the original Tolkien though? Like, 'British Soccer Hooligans' for one is definitely WH40k, I can say that for sure, even if I don't recognize the other two... Maybe Warcraft for the second?
SV has an Imaginary Number problem
- Thread starter Fivemarks
- Start date
- Discussion
I don't see how 'write what you know' is that exclusive with the supernatural. Lovecraft was writing what he knew: nightmares and xenophobia. And really, part of writing what you know is not fucking it up, which isn't as much of an issue once genre tropes become generic. There's a real risk of fucking up minority representation, but if I somehow fail in my orc worldbuilding there aren't any orcs who are going to be hurt by that.
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- Location
- Cardassia Prime
Even if the black character is British and upper class?
- Location
- The Midlands.
That is a perfect summation of why I have never attempted to write a non-white POV character and probably never will, because fucking it up that badly is probably going to annoy non-white people even more than not doing it at all. And it's hard to see how someone like me, who can count on one hand the number of non-white people I've actually known well enough to call them friends, could not fuck it up.
Being British and really upper class requires you to have at least four generations of ancestors who were born in this country and very, very rich. Hereditary privilege and a rigid class system suck that way.
Ah, yes. The classic low-effort post so low effort it fails to even be a spaghetti post, it's just a noodle post.
What's your point?
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
The point is that:
1)Fivemark demands more black characters (which yes, it's an issue)
2)Fivemarks also wants them to sound/feel/etc black
but
3)There is no such thing as universally black cultural markers
An Afro-American will not sound the same as a Kenyan will not sound the same as a black South African and so on - nevermind smaller black communities. And you can totally have black characters from upper classes, after all. The issue, and the implied criticism, is that Fivemarks doesn't just want black characters, but very specific black characters.
He wants to see himself reflected in the characters he reads. This was obvious from the start. This thread has mostly been an exercise in setting out why this hasn't happened yet (it's too difficult, people are too cautious, but they wish him all the luck in his endeavor, with two or three going 'I'm doing my best!').
What it has not been, however, is a resounding refutation of his central thesis that SV does not write black characters.
The idea that you can somehow expose hypocrisy on his part by claiming that 'he doesn't want to write black people, he just wants people to write his idea of black people is fundamentally misguided for three reasons.
1. It's a dodge. There are about as many SVers writing about upper class black Brits as there are people writing upper class Polynesian brits or upper class Chinese brits - i.e. none.
2. He has gone on the record in this very thread supporting the efforts of people who also don't see much representation. What he was doing was answering a specific question regarding what he would like to see more of.
3. OK. Let's assume you're right. Let's assume he only wants too see North American black culture represented. Great. You have proven his hypocrisy. Surely you can point to all the lovely Afro futurism and Afro fantasy he's been ignoring. Just one, solitary black panther fic? No? You can't? My word. It's like this entire tangent is a personal attack and does nothing to solve the underlying issue of representation. Chinese Canadians like myself would never be assumed to want representation in the form of Inner Mongolia, or be hyprocrites for not immediately describing inner Mongolia on a list of what you would want to see, and yet Fivemarks is expected to speak for all blackness like some sort of internet interpreter for black people. It's fucking gross.
People are so incredibly touchy about this subject to a point I cannot believe. It's like we live in a world where the simple truth that SV does not write black characters must simultaneously be explained away and also denied. SV could write black characters! Take that white guy there, add some melanin and presto pepto we have succeeded at representation!
Except that doesn't really happen either for reasons we have already set out. The question is fundamentally dishonest or betrays a staggering degree of ignorance.
So yeah. If that was the point I remain deeply unimpressed.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Well, I can't speak for Gul Damar, but as for me, I do agree that this is a problem. Just as representation in general remains an issue on SV and beyond. Just as stories and quests on SV need more male homosexual representation (the Odd Problem thread from which the format for this thread was taken), it definitely also needs more black representation. @Fivemarks is absolutely right how people write the umpteenth British Empire in space, or the millionth fantasy not!Europe, but completely ignore regions beyond Europe for such matters, or how we get story after story after story with an all-white, or in case of anime inspired stuff all-Asian, cast.
So, personally, I don't mean to dodge. I recognize there is a problem, and I also recognize I'm part of it. Certainly, my last three stories all had no black characters. It's just that this argument "they aren't coded properly" is very much unhelpful. Yes, we don't get black characters in stories or black societies in worldbuilding anyway. But demanding, well, purity tests for them will only deter people from writing those even more.
It is not so much that he is expected to speak for all people, it's that he has basically claimed this role for him. Just look at the opening post, where he does in fact constantly speak of black people, period.
And it does make a large difference if you speak about black people, period, or Afro-Americans. Demanding that black people should be included as characters in works is reasonable. Demanding that Afro-Americans in specific, with Afro-American cultural markers, should be included is not in fact universally reasonable. As somebody living 6,000km away from the USA, why should I include specifically Afro-Americans? Why should I bend over my setting just so Afro-Americans/an Afro-American equivalent appears? That not all characters be lily white is a reasonable demand, but I'd be more likely to have African (or in fantasy, not!African) characters appear than Afro-Americans.
So the demand for specifically Afro-American cultural markers is unreasonable. In fact, I'd say this whole debate reeks of Americanocentrism. SV is not just the USA. But what's more important is: By claiming to speak for all blacks, by claiming to speak about black representation in general, Fivemarks makes his demands seem weightier than they actually are. That's the problem.
Is that really an issue ? I mean, I don't think it's very strange for a black american to focus on the experience of African-American while he pushes for more black representation in media in general.
Certainly, his arguments are rooted in his personal experiences, but that's hardly something unusual. If he was somewhat overzealous and made some swiping generalization, we certainly can forgive him for that considering we've more than likely all done it sometime and a moment of thought is plenty enough to separate what stems from his desire for African-American representation and what speaks, more globally, for black representation in general.
Ultimately there is different layers of representation, from the superficial but still welcomed, appearance of black or brown characters in a fictional work, to the specific portrayal of fantasy or sci-fi inspired versions of particular groups of people from African descent, and no author need to (or can for that matter) covers the whole gamut. That's not really the point of the debate. It's crux is that, on SV, none of those layers, from the superficial dark-skinned character almost identical to the usual quest or fanfic protagonist, to the as of yet virtual African inspired character, are represented. Well, not having checked the whole site I can't say that with full confidence. Let's rather say that, without a full dive into SV's Quest and Creative Writing sections, I would be incapable to point to one story fitting the bill in that matter.
Certainly, his arguments are rooted in his personal experiences, but that's hardly something unusual. If he was somewhat overzealous and made some swiping generalization, we certainly can forgive him for that considering we've more than likely all done it sometime and a moment of thought is plenty enough to separate what stems from his desire for African-American representation and what speaks, more globally, for black representation in general.
Ultimately there is different layers of representation, from the superficial but still welcomed, appearance of black or brown characters in a fictional work, to the specific portrayal of fantasy or sci-fi inspired versions of particular groups of people from African descent, and no author need to (or can for that matter) covers the whole gamut. That's not really the point of the debate. It's crux is that, on SV, none of those layers, from the superficial dark-skinned character almost identical to the usual quest or fanfic protagonist, to the as of yet virtual African inspired character, are represented. Well, not having checked the whole site I can't say that with full confidence. Let's rather say that, without a full dive into SV's Quest and Creative Writing sections, I would be incapable to point to one story fitting the bill in that matter.
Pandemonious Ivy
Panties, Revolution. Big Drawers. Parachute.
You know the most disrespectful part about all of this?
There's nobody to fight you.
There's a ridiculously sparse amount of black Americans, let alone black X, forum goers. And most might not have anything to say even if they do see this thread. It's not promised that they would see it in the first place.
"You specifically saying you want to see more people like you with similar experiences as you is unreasonable. Why not just people with your skin color in general, that way you don't make people want to write about y'all less." You're disrespectful. Like, there's no getting around that.
Like. If a bi or ace person wanted representation for themselves in particular, going along and telling them that they're asking for too much, they should be glad with gay representation, is disrespectful.
And there's nobody to fight back against these erasure attempts. It's just Fivemarks, who I don't have faith in to handle this on their own, and me, who didn't want to be in this thread to begin with due to the amount of assholishness against the audacity of those darned black people to want more representation. Like, this whole thing is actually disgusting. If SV had an amount of black SVers see this proportionate to the LGBT+ SVers in the Odd Thread, maybe it'd be more clear then. Maybe having a veritable flood of people tell you that you're doing way way more harm than good, talking about them like you are, would do something for you. Maybe then having some fucking empathy would occur.
But it won't. I just couldn't let this pass completely unchallenged. I want you to know what you are, in front of everyone else who might/will agree with you, so there's no confusion here. You and everyone who's backing you up with this line of logic are not only wrong, but you're being actively disgusting and harmful.
Nobody wants you to write a damn thing for black people if that's how you feel, I promise. We don't need you.
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
No, such a demand wouldn't be unreasonable. But you know what would be unreasonable? If they specifically demanded representation of American, or of French, or of British bi- or asexuals. That is the analogy here.
Again, in your whole post, you speak of "black people", and yet, once again, what you mean is Afro-Americans.
And that's just such an unbelievable Americanocentrism. Apparently, the issues with race in the USA are so paramount, so important because they are American issues, that even people thousands of miles away from the USA have to bow to them, and have to code their black characters as Afro-Americans. And of course, the issue with black representation is solely one of Afro-American representation, because only American issues matter. Are you even listening to yourself?
Once again, SV is not just the friggen USA. Fivemarks is US-American, of course, but he spoke about "black people" in general, and so do you. This of course makes the issue far weightier, because exclusion of an entire race is indeed something bad - but just black people, or any demographic, of a very specific country not appearing, or members of that demographic not behaving like the members of that demographic of that very specific country, those are not valid complaints. It would be a valid complaint about the works made in that country, but again, you and Fivemarks have written pretty universally, as if SV were only the USA. As it is - this is like complaining about the lack of specifically Brits of Indian descant in American works.
The irony here is so thick you can cut it with a knife: You complain so much, and not without justification, that people always only write about their own group of people, that they can't see beyond their own subgroup, and yet here you are, viewing everything through the lense of specifically the US-American issues with racism.
Here's the thing: The definitional difference between "white person" and "black person" is in fact just the skin. Anything else is culture and, yes, personal experience - but those things do in fact differ wildly among black people. And there is no reason why it should specifically be Afro-Americans who are to be the norm for black characters. SV is not the USA.
You know what's disgusting? Your Americanocentrism.
/E: Like, if the thread had been worded as lack of Afro-American representation in US-American works, then I would certainly have agreed. But it just isn't. And claiming to speak for black representation, period, but then specifically demanding Afro-American representation, apparently world wide, that's just... gah.
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Spartakrod
Judeo-Spartacist Bolshevik-Kabbalist
- Location
- Sanctum Arcanorum
- Pronouns
- Fae/Faer/Faers/Faerself
So besides writing mediocre fanfiction I can't finish, quests for a passe fandom, and mismanaging role plays I do a lot of character and setting design work for someone I've informally partnered with. It wasn't until during one of our character jams when he asked me why nearly every character I gave him was white; and none of the characters he was expecting to write for the project were biracial like he was that I stopped and thought about it. The insidious implicit assumption that humanity (and pseudo-humanity) are all of the ethnicities you're familiar with and have been familiarized with by the media tends to be unconscious. And then a distressing number of people when confronted by this, decide to double down and attack those who point this out so they don't have to change their work or because they feel that pointing this out threatens their position of privilege. Others offer other excuses that I feel ultimately boil down to a sort of creative laziness and unwillingness to tackle something unfamiliar out of some kind of fear; whether of the effort or of doing it wrong depends on the person.
So I went over with the design docs with my partner and outright trashed a lot of concepts we felt were uninteresting, weren't heavily fleshed out, and went about replacing or repurposing them; replacing them with minority characters. The number of "spaces" you can open up for minorities by looking over your character concepts and looking at concepts that aren't really fleshed out and then going over them with a fresh mindset and then building that concept in a different direction was actually pretty surprising. I went from an entirely white main cast to about 40% white after doing this with all the less developed concepts during the review of the main character documents. Even most of the remaining white cast was changed as the writer felt that having the ethnicities who were at the top of the white pile (Anglo-Saxons, French, and Germans) for the longest time as the main cast clashed with the theme. So all but one remaining member of the white cast was recasted into heavily diasporic ethnic groups like Jews, Italians, and the Irish.
The main take from this is that during the design process you can always have a look over your character design docs and then see what really needs to be the way it is. Less fleshed out concept docs are in particular; fairly easy to alter into something more representative. In that foetal state of a design, you can absolutely change the coding inobtrusively and in my opinion; do a lot to make the cast better. Take this guy for example; when I started all I had on his document was that he was French coded, he was the most hard sciences oriented of the main cast, and used both a smaller regular suit and a hulkbuster style suit which I had detailed. When I was asked to review the cast, I sat down with the concept and Charles became Dwayne and French became Congolese coded and while I was sitting with the design doc, what had once been a very barebones doc that mostly gave very basic notes on personality and a description of their appearance grew into something I'd feel would be a decent "series bible entry" on the character. Having that time to sit down and rethink the character in my opinion, made him a lot more interesting.
Just...have a look at any character concepts you have lying around that aren't finished; because if your work isn't ready you definitely have some unfinished character concepts; and then see where you can take them as you take that skeletal concept and add meat and skin. You can also do this to make a cast more representative of women and GRSMs.
So I went over with the design docs with my partner and outright trashed a lot of concepts we felt were uninteresting, weren't heavily fleshed out, and went about replacing or repurposing them; replacing them with minority characters. The number of "spaces" you can open up for minorities by looking over your character concepts and looking at concepts that aren't really fleshed out and then going over them with a fresh mindset and then building that concept in a different direction was actually pretty surprising. I went from an entirely white main cast to about 40% white after doing this with all the less developed concepts during the review of the main character documents. Even most of the remaining white cast was changed as the writer felt that having the ethnicities who were at the top of the white pile (Anglo-Saxons, French, and Germans) for the longest time as the main cast clashed with the theme. So all but one remaining member of the white cast was recasted into heavily diasporic ethnic groups like Jews, Italians, and the Irish.
The main take from this is that during the design process you can always have a look over your character design docs and then see what really needs to be the way it is. Less fleshed out concept docs are in particular; fairly easy to alter into something more representative. In that foetal state of a design, you can absolutely change the coding inobtrusively and in my opinion; do a lot to make the cast better. Take this guy for example; when I started all I had on his document was that he was French coded, he was the most hard sciences oriented of the main cast, and used both a smaller regular suit and a hulkbuster style suit which I had detailed. When I was asked to review the cast, I sat down with the concept and Charles became Dwayne and French became Congolese coded and while I was sitting with the design doc, what had once been a very barebones doc that mostly gave very basic notes on personality and a description of their appearance grew into something I'd feel would be a decent "series bible entry" on the character. Having that time to sit down and rethink the character in my opinion, made him a lot more interesting.
Just...have a look at any character concepts you have lying around that aren't finished; because if your work isn't ready you definitely have some unfinished character concepts; and then see where you can take them as you take that skeletal concept and add meat and skin. You can also do this to make a cast more representative of women and GRSMs.
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Pandemonious Ivy
Panties, Revolution. Big Drawers. Parachute.
First of all, don't tell me what to call myself. I know what the fuck I meant.
Oh damn. How unbelievable that a black man in America (I'm assuming you didn't see my previous post) would want to read about a black person in America. No, I did not mean "Afro-American", I meant black American. Just so we're clear.
I mean, I'm not the one showing up in a black representation thread- where there's no variation of black representation being shown, not even just black Americans- and telling the people with the problem to suck it up because they're being unreasonable. Are you listening to yourself?
Huh.
It's almost like you didn't read and just wanted to bitch about the audacity to want representation. Huh.
Who is "you" in this context? Listen to how fucking ridiculous you sound. Like, the black American experience automatically needs to be through the lens of American racism? Get the fuck out. You can write a black American character with black American coding and not need to include a lick of racism in there to sell it. What even is your point? You sound like a "All Lives Matter" protester, showing up to shit on those two black people who wanted proper representation for themselves, because they aren't asking for ALL black representation. I promise, nobody wants you stanning for them. You're good. You can put down your "Nominal Ally" flag.
Ah yes, @Fivemarks we can't be both black and American. We should never ask for stories about people who are both. We must only ask about people who are black and elsewhere, so that people who are going to cry about not wanting to write racism, don't have to worry about it. Because black people elsewhere never have to deal with it, that's the lie they tell themselves so they can sleep at night.
This entire 'rebuttal' was a joke. Whoever it is you're pretending to defend, they neither need nor want you, you can stop.
Pandemonious Ivy
Panties, Revolution. Big Drawers. Parachute.
In all honesty, some of these folks wouldn't have shit you'd want to read anyway. Probably with black-skinned characters who call themselves "Afro-American" or some other weird aberration that doesn't exist in real life.
Vyslanté
The self is a prison
- Location
- European Union
...sorry?
Pandemonious Ivy
Panties, Revolution. Big Drawers. Parachute.
Black people- in this case, Black Americans- don't call themselves Afro-American. That's not a thing. It doesn't exist. People might call us that, from the outside, but it's not a thing that is used as an identifier.
Spartakrod
Judeo-Spartacist Bolshevik-Kabbalist
- Location
- Sanctum Arcanorum
- Pronouns
- Fae/Faer/Faers/Faerself
America uses "African", the use of "Afro" as an ethnic prefix is something done outside of the US for non-American African diasporas, especially in the Caribbean. Also no one in America is going to identify themselves as Afro-American in casual conversation/the usual one liners in fiction. Not even really for a joke. And if it were used in a joke in a story I can't imagine it being funny outside of a "so lame it qualifies as anti-humour" joke.
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Oh how gracious of you. Unfortunately, this isn't really how this works. And I don't give a damn about being an "ally" or not. This isn't about pleasing you.
Now, I don't want to descend into spaghetti posting, so I'll try to answer in summary... for what it's worth, given those piss-poor comments.
Yes, of course it is reasonable that an US-American black person would want to read about US-American black people. But whatever you call that demographic - those aren't the only black people around, and SV is in fact not just about the USA. Having such a preference is reasonable. Talking about black people in general (and the opening post had in fact no specifiers), on an international board with members from across the globe, and then meaning American black people, though, that isn't reasonable. At all!
I mean, let's recap how we got here, yes? First, Fivemarks complained about a lacking representation of black people. Fair enough. Then he complained about black characters who do exist not acting black enough... and since there is no such thing as a universal black culture, he apparently meant they aren't acting like black Americans, don't have black American cultural markers. But that is a completely different issue then. SV is not just the USA, and black people are not just American black people.
But, if you do mean specifically American black people, then here's your answer to the thread question then: Because not everyone here is American, and why should not-Americans write specifically about black Americans? That is as ridiculous as asking why Americans aren't including representation for French people of Arab descent, or even demanding they do.
And I don't think that pointing that out in this thread is any sort of great crime. What did you expect? Everyone just saying yes and amen on every little detail that's brought up? Just absurd.
Yeah well, excuse me for not knowing the exact terminological intricacies of race relations in a country on the other side of the damn Atlantic. It's almost like that the world doesn't consist of just the USA is my point!
Spartakrod
Judeo-Spartacist Bolshevik-Kabbalist
- Location
- Sanctum Arcanorum
- Pronouns
- Fae/Faer/Faers/Faerself
On the note of the entire world not being America, Jim Sterling once said (and I'll paraphrase here) this regarding games that were popular in Japan but deeply rankled with American sensibilities because of their very sexual content. If the game is never released out of Japan; sure it can stick to doing things that Japan finds acceptable but wouldn't fly elsewhere. If it's to release in America or elsewhere, it should keep in mind that those places have different views on the matter.
By releasing your work in America you should keep American sensibilities at least somewhat in mind; and as the ideal story is supposed to be timeless and nationless; it should be able to appeal to African Americans as well as people living here in the continent itself. It's not an either or question. And Africans have gotten and continue to get a deeply raw deal no matter where they are on the planet; whether in Africa proper or the diaspora in the New world and Europe.
By releasing your work in America you should keep American sensibilities at least somewhat in mind; and as the ideal story is supposed to be timeless and nationless; it should be able to appeal to African Americans as well as people living here in the continent itself. It's not an either or question. And Africans have gotten and continue to get a deeply raw deal no matter where they are on the planet; whether in Africa proper or the diaspora in the New world and Europe.
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Pandemonious Ivy
Panties, Revolution. Big Drawers. Parachute.
Or? Maybe it's like you shouldn't open your mouth to bitch on things you know nothing about!
Here, I'm gonna ignore this jab and try to de-escalate to respond to this genuinely.
Saying "It's confusing when you don't specify what country your perspective is coming from, on a board full of international posters" is a perfectly valid complaint. Yet, that's not what you're doing. You're being abrasive, disrespectful, and minimizing the black American perspective by saying that asking for it to get more representation is "unhelpful" and "unreasonable". There's no way that entering the thread with that sort of approach was going to end positively or productively.
I'm going to give benefit of the doubt and assume that it wasn't intentionally meant to be offensive and that because you didn't realize that people are responding to how you're saying things more than the "this is confusing" core of your words, things spiraled until they became an unnecessary shitshow.
So, with that benefit of the doubt, let's try again:
Yes, it is a valid complaint that "Hey, not all of us are from the US, can you be more specific in the OP next time?" would be perfectly helpful and necessary. I agree. You're correct.
That aside, everything else you said was actively disrespectful and minimizing and no amount of a "valid point" would prevent that from being addressed as being problematic.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
That does make sense for sensibilities, but with representation it's a bit more complicated. You can't really represent more specific demographic groups than you have characters, after all. Now, a story set in the USA absolutely should have black Americans as characters, but not every story is.
Right. Let's try deescalation, thus I'll ignore your initial jab. The thing is - I can't speak for you, but as for Fivemarks, I think he did mean to talk about representation of black people in general, not just black Americans. Hence his comments about Order of the Stick, Faerun or hypothetical not!Zulu empires and all that. And hey, regarding that, I'm even 100% in agreement with him. So no, this wasn't just "confusion". At least with Fivemarks, I really do get the impression he talks about black people in general the one post, and then black Americans specifically the next post, without really distinguishing between those two definitions.
And that is a problem beyond just confusion, because that basically means (implicitly, not deliberately) demanding all black representation should be American Black representation.
But hey, it's his thread, so I guess we could just ask him:
@Fivemarks , if you say black representation, what exactly do you mean? Black people in general, or black Americans?
Pandemonious Ivy
Panties, Revolution. Big Drawers. Parachute.
Part of it could've been a genuine belief that black people from other cultures would show up and give their input and perspectives. Which would've completely changed how the thread went, for the better, but it was just him and me.
But yes, the unsure nature of what is the aim and what it became is something that can be worked on, for future readers who aren't in America.
Spartakrod
Judeo-Spartacist Bolshevik-Kabbalist
- Location
- Sanctum Arcanorum
- Pronouns
- Fae/Faer/Faers/Faerself
I'm probably the only person actually in Africa here. But I'm neither black nor Afrikaans and will be leaving in two months. Still, I think I can give some insight into the differences in perspective among the black majority here and the African-American population tomorrow after I finish some of my other writings and have some sleep.
ColdGoldLazarus
Contrary Quester, Spreadsheet Queen, Pink Flamingo
- Location
- Challenger Deep
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The cast of my quest mostly consists of white Alternate-Universe Ukrainians, but there's also a handful of significant characters who are Alternate-Universe Turkish. I don't know that it counts for much, and I worry about the effectiveness of their portrayal, but hopefully it's at least something. I still have a hard time with not just making everyone white by default, but I'm trying to improve on that.