SV has an Imaginary Number problem

As a white dude, I am cautious about attempting to present the black experience.
I think thats the thing a lot of time. The issue isnt so much "I cant be arsed to write black characters lol" as "I dont want to do it wrong and be accused of stereotyping or racism", which when added to laziness in terms of doing research or, you know, actually talking to people, leads to all-white casts.
 
And even when we do get works by Black Creators, like Tyler Perry? Well, y'know, Boondocks sums it up pretty nicely.



tl;dr: It sucks being black, but boy it sucks even more being dark skinned
 
@Fivemarks I said I'd leave, and I apologize for going back on that, I'll just be here temporarily:

Is this entire thread just for you to complain? Like, people are giving actual commentary (now) and saying things worth engaging with. And you're just slumping around giving the same non-responses. I feel you, there's issues with black people and how they're treated in literature and fanfiction, but... what are you trying to do about it? What are you trying to suggest?

Because right now? This? This is moping. This is aimless moping while you wait for other people to solve the problem. And you can't even say "the discussion should help", because you aren't even discussing anything.

If you had some actual mission for this whole thing, I'd appreciate it (as a person who doesn't want this to be the only kind of representation my people get, because it's piss poor and disappointing) if you could actually be more assertive and productive about it.

Because this:

Nope but FOR SOME REASON, Shows and Movies and novels about Crime tend to have lots of Black people. Mostly as Criminals. Because that's what society says we can be: Athletes, and Criminals.

You've got it basically just as bad though. Maybe without the problem of "If you do appear, it'll be as an athlete or criminal or one of three Black Roles that aren't that", but you still have a problem with representation.

Skin color is only part of being a different ethnicity. If you have a black character, but he acts like he's just a generic white dude who happens to be black, That is just a *bit* frustrating.

That still doesn't excuse Science Fiction.

Eh. I get that response a lot. Another response I get alot is "I'm in Asia and black people barely exist here so why should I care?" You kinda learn to just stop caring that much.

But why mix things up in a fantasy world when you can just do Tolkein, again. But this time STEAMPUNK (Like Eberron), OR THIS TIME POST APOCALYPTIC (Dark Sun), Or this time, with Mary Sues(Faerun)

And in Sci-fi, Pfft. Who cares about minorities. We need more Grizzled White Hard Men doing Hard Things, while Asians are inscrutable and honorable and devoid of morals over there, while all of our people who we say look black are pretty much the British Monarch + Melanin.

Except, wen we do have minority writers, they're told both by their hire ups AND by their fanbases(through money or through being actually told) that no, they need to put in less minorities and more white people.

And even when we do get works by Black Creators, like Tyler Perry? Well, y'know, Boondocks sums it up pretty nicely.



tl;dr: It sucks being black, but boy it sucks even more being dark skinned


Is a list of every time you decided to confuse a complaint for an actual response that moves the conversation along.

It's not helpful. It's not quality representation. And it's not doing anything, besides probably being used as justification to continue not caring.

On behalf of the people you're trying to speak up for, it'd be great if you could speak with a bit more clarity and sense of purpose. Thank you.
 
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I'd be interested in hearing an alternative.

If you're doing "historical nation, IN SPACE!" which I think is the topic of discussion, a basic remedy isn't too hard. Pick a historical African nation, research it, and use that as a basis. Africa is the second largest continent on Earth and has been inhabited since the dawn of humanity, you have plenty of civilizations and nations to chose from. Space Roman Empire is somewhat common, but what about the Space Carthaginian Empire?

That's probably a comparatively low effort contribution to more equal representation, but it's probably better than nothing.

Obligatory disclaimers: I'm a random white engineer on the internet; my thoughts on racial issues and representation may be way the fuck off (let me know if you think they are). Also my sleep/caffeine ratio is quite sub-optimal right now, so I may not have the best word choice.
 
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I haven't read it yet. But I believe that Nalo Hopkinson's Midnight Robber is set in a sci-fi world based on Caribbean and Southeaster US Creole culture.

Brown Girl in the Ring, which I have read, is basically a similarly themed urban fantasy set in a dystopian Toronto.

Also, maybe these threads should have actual titles?
 
Yeah, but like I tried to say before, a true fantasy setting shouldn't really take any ethnic cues from our world
Eeeeeeeeh....

I mean, to a point, I think I understand where you're coming from- If you're creating a whole new world, why just copy over ethnic relationships from our world when you could create new and exiting things?

The thing is, cultures are complex. Like, highly complex. Creating an entire culture with literally no inspiration from existing groups would be an amazingly difficult task, if not impossible. Using existing cultures as a basis is essentially required to get much done.

Further, while obviously a fantasy setting is not about reality directly, it is still saying something about reality- whether you like it or not, your worldview and understanding of 'how things work' will spill over into your fiction to some degree. Using existing cultures as a basis for some fantasy culture allows you to say things about the base culture, whether critical or supportive.

Ultimately, I think what would be best isn't to avoid usage of existing ethnic groups and/or cultures as a baseline- but, rather, to approach the use of existing cultures in a nuanced, critical, and open-minded way, rather than a slapdash "Instant Empire Just Add Romans" one.
 
"Instant Empire Just Add Romans" one.
What annoys me about that is that there are things about the Roman Empire at various times that are very interesting (Im mostly interested in the politics side of it tbh, but thats because Im a politics geek and any political system is interesting), but that get ignored because all people see is the overall "Empire" thing.
 
People would rather read about the Space British colonizers.

There's also a bit of a word association issue. Like, for most people, if you say "Space Empire", they will immediately picture either Space Romans or Space British, simply because to most people "Empire" means that, no matter how much you establish it being somethng else. Like, shit, the Star Wars Empire is 100% nazis, they are directly inspired by nazis, they wear naziesque uniforms, their guys are named Stormtroopers for fuck's sake, and yet still the average fanfic STILL makes them Space Britain very often. I've spent posts trying to explain to people that the Scarlet Empire in Exalted is NOT the Roman Empire and it does not work the same way.

So even if you wrote about the Space Mali Empire, if you named it "Zarghblaghble Empire", everyone is going to immediately assume that means it's like Imperial Britain or Imperial Rome (depending on which side of the pond they're on) in every single thing that is not explicitly contradicted by the text, and even then.

It's going to require a lot of fics and a lot of effort to try and dissolve the association, so we probably should start getting started! :p
 
Zulu have a particular perception in popular culture, and it's probably not one the author would want to run with. And trying to transpose their actual history on another setting would be Honorverse-level clumsy.
 
I really want to write Black Panther fanfiction.

In fact, I want to enough I've got about fifteen hundred words written right this second, and while self-indulgent, it's not completely terrible.

Elevator Pitch: Erik (as per the comics) has an unnamed son. Wakanda will not fail him as it did his father.

I want to take this as a starting point to illustrate what kind of thought needs to go into what should be a really simple idea. After all, there are hundreds of Naruto is adopted by X, or Harry Potter is adopted by Y and the focus tends to be both on the adopter and adoptee and whatever, it's a sappy, feel good fic where the strength of the fan response comes from how much you want to see Z character be happy, healthy and strong, and see the adopter mete out justice to petty crooks or the abusive home life or whatever.

For Black Panther, right away, you have to ask (and answer!) why this kid? Why not other ghetto girls and boys? And while we're at it, isn't it kind of gross to be doing this pseudo-white savior bullshit while pretending you're not white (in my case, CBC) through characters in a story? And wait, who's to say that Erik Jr. (or whatever his name is) had a terrible home life? Maybe he got adopted into money the same way that Creed's Adonis Johnson got adopted.

So, in order to write this fairly standard fanfic plot (Character A is adopted by Character B) I have to take into account the long and storied history of R2P, presentations of race, the whole white savior industrial complex, come up with a coherent plot and make it seem 'authentic' - aka, not just white people playing dress-up.

And that last point is what a lot of people are scared of. Sure, it's easy to tell people 'just make X character black or brown.' But, to take a rather common metaphor, there's a difference between white toast and brown bread.

To talk about dialogue alone without involving any other cultural trappings (music, clothes, what have you): can you code switch? Can you make two people in a room who don't have to perform in front of a white audience sound natural? NPR has a podcast called codeswitch, there are TED talks on the subject, and, truth be told, if you're not black, you are intimately aware that you have to rely on stereotypes. 'Black people talk like X'.

This ends up with a bit of a problem with self-selection from those who aren't black because either you are getting:

A) People who know enough not to dare to try until they do the research (they probably don't know how to do the research)
B) People who know enough and don't care
C) People who know enough to hire a black person for part of the writing task

C is useless: Here on SV, we can't just throw money at our problems until someone else addresses them.

Those who fall into category B tend to be assholes and so you get your athlete/criminal/etc. boxes for black people to fit into because that's how their minds work when it comes to black people. But why do the people who fit in A dare not try, even after they've done the research? Let me quote Donald Glover: "I'm black, making a very black show, and they're telling me I can't use the N-word! Only in a world run by white people would that happen."

If you care, it is intimidating as fuck to write about black people. How far do you go in the name of an authenticity you yourself know mostly through TV shows and literature (which are probably racist anyway?)? Does the fact that I'm making a reference to Creed in my fic via Erik having written a cheesecake rap that's briefly referenced humanize him a little, or does it sound unbelievably stupid? (Probably both) Does the fact that T'Challa cannot recognize what a match is in the same way the average person not recognize what a flint looks like make Wakanda seem more like a supertech marvel or does it make T'Challa look like a clown - which is its own stereotype of black person? (Probably the latter)

Writing white people is easy because stories of white people have made deep, easy grooves for you to slot yourself into. They are the universal human being, they are the generic whitebread, they are the common denominator.

These are the lies we tell ourselves.

The common denominator isn't common at all, it just pretends it is by virtue of being able to impose its common sense on the world and for the rest of the world to have to take it. I live in Shanghai where everyone lives in an apartment that's at least five floors tall and yet if you ask small children to draw a picture of their home, odds are, a hefty proportion (though not all) will still draw a generic two window, one door house. Some might even include a chimney.

All without having ever seen a real house or a real chimney.

That is power.

And power tends not to be very understanding. Why should it? It doesn't have to understand anything. Understanding is for the weak which have to navigate the corridors that power creates.

In our neck of the woods where fiction tends to be fantasy and science-fiction minorities get written out in favor of fantasy races and while you might look at it and say 'weeeeak', take a second look. Legend of Korra Season 1 with its non-benders, RWBY with its faunus, vampires in urban fantasy somehow representing racism minorities feel despite the fact they are super strong, super fast, cannot stand exposure to the light and literally drink blood... as a someone once pointed out, they far better represent those in power than those who are oppressed.

These are professional writers (well, RWBY it's debatable) being completely shit at writing fictional minorities that they invented.

Even Terry Pratchett is guilty of this. I swear by him. I quote him often. I think about his writing all the time. I have read basically every book he has ever written and will re-read them at the drop of a hat.

And yet, I cannot get past the first few chapters of Interesting Times where Rincewind travels to 'fantasy China.' To me it's completely stupid, starting with the 'smart' Chinese character greatly admiring the English writing system for having a letters represent sounds (because that's exactly how English works what with bough, cough, dough all rhyming, right?) as opposed to the dumb way Chinese people write things and while I'm sure it has its redeeming points, to me, basically everything in it is awful and made worse by how much I love Terry Pratchett. Now, he's probably poking fun at how fantasy China is generally portrayed, but as someone of Chinese descent, I found it appalling. To his credit, he didn't make these fantasy Chinese people elves or something, but, nevertheless, his parody of what was already an extremely racist portrayal of Chinese people somehow not racist.

Basically, this imaginary problem is hard as balls to solve because people who don't write what they know, don't know what tf they're writing about.
 
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I really want to write Black Panther fanfiction.

In fact, I want to enough I've got about fifteen hundred words written right this second, and while self-indulgent, it's not completely terrible.

Elevator Pitch: Erik (as per the comics) has an unnamed son. Wakanda will not fail him as it did his father.
I will read it if you post it. Even if you don't will you PM me it?
 
The thing is, cultures are complex. Like, highly complex. Creating an entire culture with literally no inspiration from existing groups would be an amazingly difficult task, if not impossible. Using existing cultures as a basis is essentially required to get much done.
I think to me this is the real issue I have when writing: not with the underrepresentation of any particular culture (ethnic, religious, or otherwise) but with the overrepresentation of the cultures I already know, which implicitly forms a worldview based around those elements.

That can be tricky, though, because readers will inevitably interpret any elements you include through their own lens. It can feel awkward to include 'new' elements (and sometimes even modern ethnic elements), because you don't precisely know how people will interpret them.
 
Even Terry Pratchett is guilty of this. I swear by him. I quote him often. I think about his writing all the time. I have read basically every book he has ever written and will re-read them at the drop of a hat.

And yet, I cannot get past the first few chapters of Interesting Times where Rincewind travels to 'fantasy China.' To me it's completely stupid, starting with the 'smart' Chinese character greatly admiring the English writing system for having a letters represent sounds (because that's exactly how English works what with bough, cough, dough all rhyming, right?) as opposed to the dumb way Chinese people write things and while I'm sure it has its redeeming points, to me, basically everything in it is awful and made worse by how much I love Terry Pratchett. Now, he's probably poking fun at how fantasy China is generally portrayed, but as someone of Chinese descent, I found it appalling. To his credit, he didn't make these fantasy Chinese people elves or something, but, nevertheless, his parody of what was already an extremely racist portrayal of Chinese people somehow not racist.

Basically, this imaginary problem is hard as balls to solve because people who don't write what they know, don't know what tf they're writing about.

Sadly, I don't think a lot of this was a parody. There were parts that clearly were (ninjas, honor). But the portions on "OMG Ankh-Morpork gets things done rather than do tests" appears way too often and way too much of the focus for Pratchett not to think he had an actual point outside of parody. It's honestly one of the books I'm most uncomfortable with because I think it shows a lot of unexamined racism that he didn't realize he has.
 
Writing white people is easy because stories of white people have made deep, easy grooves for you to slot yourself into. They are the universal human being, they are the generic whitebread, they are the common denominator.

Which 'white' people? Irish? Norwegians? Bulgarians? Russians? Italians? Iranians (technically)? I imagine that if you tried to write a Portuguese character and gave him a Swedish voice and cultural background you'd probably not write a very convincing character. In short, I think this part of your argument is somewhat off base.
 
Sadly, I don't think a lot of this was a parody. There were parts that clearly were (ninjas, honor). But the portions on "OMG Ankh-Morpork gets things done rather than do tests" appears way too often and way too much of the focus for Pratchett not to think he had an actual point outside of parody. It's honestly one of the books I'm most uncomfortable with because I think it shows a lot of unexamined racism that he didn't realize he has.

I mean, the pastiche of Greece is all philosophers shooting arrows at tortoises and running around naked. People from Ankh-Morpork probably don't do that either.
 
Which 'white' people? Irish? Norwegians? Bulgarians? Russians? Italians? Iranians (technically)? I imagine that if you tried to write a Portuguese character and gave him a Swedish voice and cultural background you'd probably not write a very convincing character. In short, I think this part of your argument is somewhat off base.

I am trying to be charitable, but, before I explain, you did notice that I literally wrote that that the idea is a lie a line after, right? Like you didn't miss it on your way through the thing?
 
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