Eh. I get that response a lot. Another response I get alot is "I'm in Asia and black people barely exist here so why should I care?" You kinda learn to just stop caring that much.
SV has an Imaginary Number problem
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Eh. I get that response a lot. Another response I get alot is "I'm in Asia and black people barely exist here so why should I care?" You kinda learn to just stop caring that much.
Pandemonious Ivy
Panties, Revolution. Big Drawers. Parachute.
Not I, said this other black man.
If you don't care, don't care quietly. The disrespect is unnecessary.
On a different note, I'm working on some more black works so hopefully they'll be out soon and scratch that itch.
He's from a immigrant family. After all Peter Grant isn't black, he's biracial : born from a white Englishman and from a black woman from Sierra Leone. He's actually behaving in the way many people born from such unions do. We tend, at least in my experience, to lean upon one side of our heritage depending on where we are : for example, I don't behave or think in the same way when I'm in France or in Ivory Coast. Beside I'm not sure about Peter but I don't think he personally ever went to Sierra Leone. So it's not surprising that he's mostly behaving like a British lad. Still there are evident cultural markers - like the way he describes his upbringing and his mother. There is many a boy with a west African mother that wax poetics on how early they learned to wash and iron their own clothes or cook for their brothers and sisters, if they had any.
I understand a character more intensely preoccupied by his African heritage, or a black or biracial character cleaving more closely to one of the many shade of what we call "black culture" in the american sense could be more interesting, but I like the fact that we have at least one exemple of the experience of the offspring of a mixed relationship, even if it's with one character that belong to a segment of that demographic that tends to blend in the population of the country they were raised in. That is also one of the part of black or "black-ish" experience that I like to see represented.
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Are you talking about fan works or science fiction as a whole?
When it comes down to it, I'd argue that in a lot of proper science fiction either the concepts take precedence and thus the backgrounds of the characters don't matter that much, or the setting itself is so far detached from our own context that the ethnicities of the characters don't make much difference. What I mean is that it doesn't much matter what colour you make your protagonist living on the planet Tharg in the year 3945 - his or her (or their) ethnicity will indubitably be Thargian, and wont (or shouldn't) bear much similarity to our own cultural markers.
Does that make sense? I'm not sure I phrased that very well.
EDIT: That said, if your setting is contemporary-ish, then I agree that you should make a bit of an effort to make it realistically diverse, yes.
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Pandemonious Ivy
Panties, Revolution. Big Drawers. Parachute.
Why are people trying to make this thread "Reasons why nobody wants to write black characters, too bad, so sad"?
I'm exuding actual disgust right now.
I'm exuding actual disgust right now.
Hyacinthium
Writing about sad cannibals as we speak.
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It's like the other thread, only there's even less activity and people to rebuke it.
Not wanting to put in effort, which ultimately is what becomes of not wanting to risk bad portrayal or research, is far from a reason to not put in something other than 'more euro or asian themed civs'.
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@Fivemarks @Pandemonious Ivy
Do you mind if I contact you as sources/for sources? I was planning on having a more diverse cast for my Yugioh GX fanfic anyway (the source material's cast is surprisingly small) and I find that it's easier to write original characters by getting perspectives other than my own.
I am new at writing and would appreciate any help you're willing to give.
Do you mind if I contact you as sources/for sources? I was planning on having a more diverse cast for my Yugioh GX fanfic anyway (the source material's cast is surprisingly small) and I find that it's easier to write original characters by getting perspectives other than my own.
I am new at writing and would appreciate any help you're willing to give.
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
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Because it's the usual Fivemarks "Why aren't people writing people exactly like me?" rant, but in thread form.
And because that's how these things always go.
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Wait, what?
Synthesis
Special Mobile Suit Troops, U.E.S.A.
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Hah, the ball is now in Synthesis' court!
The last two "SV has a problem" threads, I was part of the problem, but not this time probably!
So I'm Taiwanese (I am not, in fact, from Luxembourg, as my inside joke avatar might suggest). And admittedly, my longest story, an almost 800k-long Gundam Wing affair, features a white primarp protagonist because the focus character 1) looks Occidental within the context of the franchise (admittedly the GW setting in particular has deep roots in Europe on account of its focus on European chivalry, the Napoleonic wars, and other historical factors) and 2) his name is "Walker". Ergo, I made him white--though I have done certain things like give him a Chinese foster parent from his childhood as a compromise towards familiarity (part of that was also wanting a gratuitous cameo by actor James Hong), and I've given him a rather international upbringing like myself (Walker is, uncreatively, described as having having mostly Scottish background, but is a North American and has a grandparent from the Indian subcontinent).
But I'm not without my own flaws. My longstanding Outlaw Star story, which I actually finished to positive reception, has an Indian protagonist by the name of Chandrasekhar, but aside from some aspects of his childhood and his upbringing, there's very little that makes him "Indian" (among other things, he's not a practicing Hindu either). His half-Indian, half-Vietnamese son is even "less Indian" than he is. In Soldier of OZ: Walker's Account, the Occidental Walker is heavily surrounded by Asian characters, particularly Chinese and Japanese (a nod to the original franchise), but I've never been completely satisfied with one of the earliest characters, Flight Officer A. K. ("Ajay") Mazuri, a Kenyan MS pilot. As with Chandrasekhar, aside from his background, some glimpses into his childhood, and a few things that pushed him into his military career, there probably isn't much else to establish him as "African" (it probably doesn't help that, in a way, he is the token black flight member, alongside two white men and a Okinawan woman). He speaks English, along with the rest of the cast. At least he's not alone among black characters--despite the heavy central and southern European lean, the OZ military forces in Walker's Account do some off as pretty multinational, and Walker's immediately superior, Lieutenant Colonel North, as a not-so-subtle nod to late 1990s/early 2000s Don Cheadle.
In a more distant approach to the same issue, my original stories based on a post-Cold War science-fiction/adventure setting tend to focus around Eurasian characters, particularly one by the name of Major Konstantin Novikov. At least in that setting, I've put a heavy emphasis on looking at non-Slavic people in the USSR, particularly Asians, and even with his very generically Russian name, Novikov himself is an ethnic Kazakh (though considering he is sometimes mistaken as Chinese, perhaps that's just a reflection of what I'm comfortable with). Novikov spends some amount of time reflecting on whom he is even before dire circumstances see him leave Earth (it makes sense, sort of)--born outside Almatey, but educated in a Suvorov School in Moscow, a full-blooded Kazakh but probably a very Russianized one at that. I've had that approach since the start, and the characters, Slavic, Turkic, Asian or otherwise, probably spend an undue amount of time reflecting on the fact--there's at last one scene written down where a room of officers are discussing the finer points of Soviet nationality policy and one character asks, "Okay, all the Russians raise their hands." A clear minority of officers raise their hands, including one Korean (to some surprise) who also drags up the hand of a reluctant Kuban cossack officer, causing some snickering. That's reflecting a demographic pattern where the USSR's population is growing more and more Asian in the face of gradually declining birthrates among the traditinoally Slav and European nationalities, and that reflected in the changing face of the armed forces as a result (I could call this "Ask me why I hate the movie Air Force One!"). Several years later, when Novikov returns to Earth from self-imposed exile (it's a long story, or it would be if I wasn't lazy) he visits the newly completed Jewish Museum and Tolerance Center in Moscow (based on the real museum that exists today) and is dismayed to see a former comrade and dear friend of his who was assassinated by anti-government conspirators memorialized there because, in his own words, "Why though? Frankly, he was a terrible Jew..." (he was unobservant, only partially of Ashkenazi Jewish background) since he was related to the leaders of the Jewish Autonomous Oblast.
In some ways, my stories so far have been an opportunity to experiment with racial and ethnic backgrounds--though I suppose it's not surprising that my experiments tend to lean in the direction of my own ethnic background (Taiwanese characters pop up, albeit always in very minor capacities--it would only make sense for there to be more Japanese, Chinese, Korean and Indian characters).
The last two "SV has a problem" threads, I was part of the problem, but not this time probably!
So I'm Taiwanese (I am not, in fact, from Luxembourg, as my inside joke avatar might suggest). And admittedly, my longest story, an almost 800k-long Gundam Wing affair, features a white primarp protagonist because the focus character 1) looks Occidental within the context of the franchise (admittedly the GW setting in particular has deep roots in Europe on account of its focus on European chivalry, the Napoleonic wars, and other historical factors) and 2) his name is "Walker". Ergo, I made him white--though I have done certain things like give him a Chinese foster parent from his childhood as a compromise towards familiarity (part of that was also wanting a gratuitous cameo by actor James Hong), and I've given him a rather international upbringing like myself (Walker is, uncreatively, described as having having mostly Scottish background, but is a North American and has a grandparent from the Indian subcontinent).
But I'm not without my own flaws. My longstanding Outlaw Star story, which I actually finished to positive reception, has an Indian protagonist by the name of Chandrasekhar, but aside from some aspects of his childhood and his upbringing, there's very little that makes him "Indian" (among other things, he's not a practicing Hindu either). His half-Indian, half-Vietnamese son is even "less Indian" than he is. In Soldier of OZ: Walker's Account, the Occidental Walker is heavily surrounded by Asian characters, particularly Chinese and Japanese (a nod to the original franchise), but I've never been completely satisfied with one of the earliest characters, Flight Officer A. K. ("Ajay") Mazuri, a Kenyan MS pilot. As with Chandrasekhar, aside from his background, some glimpses into his childhood, and a few things that pushed him into his military career, there probably isn't much else to establish him as "African" (it probably doesn't help that, in a way, he is the token black flight member, alongside two white men and a Okinawan woman). He speaks English, along with the rest of the cast. At least he's not alone among black characters--despite the heavy central and southern European lean, the OZ military forces in Walker's Account do some off as pretty multinational, and Walker's immediately superior, Lieutenant Colonel North, as a not-so-subtle nod to late 1990s/early 2000s Don Cheadle.
In a more distant approach to the same issue, my original stories based on a post-Cold War science-fiction/adventure setting tend to focus around Eurasian characters, particularly one by the name of Major Konstantin Novikov. At least in that setting, I've put a heavy emphasis on looking at non-Slavic people in the USSR, particularly Asians, and even with his very generically Russian name, Novikov himself is an ethnic Kazakh (though considering he is sometimes mistaken as Chinese, perhaps that's just a reflection of what I'm comfortable with). Novikov spends some amount of time reflecting on whom he is even before dire circumstances see him leave Earth (it makes sense, sort of)--born outside Almatey, but educated in a Suvorov School in Moscow, a full-blooded Kazakh but probably a very Russianized one at that. I've had that approach since the start, and the characters, Slavic, Turkic, Asian or otherwise, probably spend an undue amount of time reflecting on the fact--there's at last one scene written down where a room of officers are discussing the finer points of Soviet nationality policy and one character asks, "Okay, all the Russians raise their hands." A clear minority of officers raise their hands, including one Korean (to some surprise) who also drags up the hand of a reluctant Kuban cossack officer, causing some snickering. That's reflecting a demographic pattern where the USSR's population is growing more and more Asian in the face of gradually declining birthrates among the traditinoally Slav and European nationalities, and that reflected in the changing face of the armed forces as a result (I could call this "Ask me why I hate the movie Air Force One!"). Several years later, when Novikov returns to Earth from self-imposed exile (it's a long story, or it would be if I wasn't lazy) he visits the newly completed Jewish Museum and Tolerance Center in Moscow (based on the real museum that exists today) and is dismayed to see a former comrade and dear friend of his who was assassinated by anti-government conspirators memorialized there because, in his own words, "Why though? Frankly, he was a terrible Jew..." (he was unobservant, only partially of Ashkenazi Jewish background) since he was related to the leaders of the Jewish Autonomous Oblast.
In some ways, my stories so far have been an opportunity to experiment with racial and ethnic backgrounds--though I suppose it's not surprising that my experiments tend to lean in the direction of my own ethnic background (Taiwanese characters pop up, albeit always in very minor capacities--it would only make sense for there to be more Japanese, Chinese, Korean and Indian characters).
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I felt it was important for my perspective to be represented so that the scope of the problem could be properly understood.
Seems like the perfect reason to me. Unless my story is about race, I'm inclined to largely ignore race. From my position it's just one of those things, like the ins and outs of the monetary system, that I don't have to put any attention on. Again, I recognize this probably makes me part of the problem. But I don't see an easy fix, and I like writing because it's easy.
Pandemonious Ivy
Panties, Revolution. Big Drawers. Parachute.
I'm fine with that. Although the best I could do for you would be to suggest great black actors to observe and put together a 'portfolio' of sorts.
Luke Cage, Dear White People, and... basically any film that Michael B Jordan is in (or just MBJ outside of films) would all be good for finding quality, inoffensive, and diverse portrayals of black people as an actual people with culture and personality.
Um. Hi, I'm not Fivemarks, I have a problem with white being the default. That it came from someone you have problems with is no excuse to dismiss a particularly valid argument. Especially one this sensitive.
I felt your perspective was unnecessary and disrespectful.
Yes, black people know that a lot of people don't really give a shit about them getting quality representation. For one reason or another. We know. We know. We fucking know. You stumbling in here to say "Yeah well, I don't care, too lazy, lul" is insulting. I promise you? Nobody cares. Be a solution, not a problem.
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Thanks. It's more that I want someone to bounce ideas off of, I don't think I'll have too much trouble.
Thanks for the suggestions, I watched Luke Cage, Black Panther, Get Out, read Octavia Butler's books, and am currently reading The Wretched if the Earth, but any other suggestions would be great. I'd love to see more of those on this site.
Pandemonious Ivy
Panties, Revolution. Big Drawers. Parachute.
I want to take a step back to re-address this in a different light.
Hi, I'm Panda/Pan/Ivy/Rick Ross/whatever. I'm a black American man and I've lived a black American man life.
I've had so little interaction with @Fivemarks in the years I've been on this forum that I didn't even know they existed, in all honesty. So when I say I took this thread and the issues brought up within it at face value, I mean it.
Having someone else willing to speak up on black racial issues and go so far as to make a thread about it? That means something to me. I appreciate it. I love it. So when others come in and they basically say variations of "Don't care", "Write it yourself", or "Eh", it's upsetting on a core level. This isn't "Oh, I don't like you", this is "Something that you've had wielded against you as a weapon, that you wanted to use for empowerment, doesn't matter".
So, this comment made me go consult with some people I generally trust the opinions of, and they let me know what the deal is with the OP here. Before I start trying to stand up for someone, I like to know what they're about. I appreciate that they're about black empowerment, but nothing else I've heard has been positive or encouraging.
That all being said, this thread is genuinely tainted for me now, by association. Knowing that it's going to be treated as an attack on other groups (which apparently is in character) or used to attack the OP, means that there's nothing positive or worthy here for me.
I'll leave this last word then I'm out:
Portrayal of black people (and other minorities) is an important way for youths and other black figures to feel some sense of empowerment, some sense that things will be okay, and a sense that the world actually wants to see people as people. When I was a youth, I had to grow up relating to Spider-Man, because there were so few other black figures that weren't problematic in some way or another. Now that I'm an adult, it legitimately brings tears to my eyes that there's a black (and Puerto Rican) Spider-Man now, and he's being portrayed so beautifully.
Writing quality depictions of black people (and other minorities) isn't just a "eh, they could be black, but why bother" thing. Not to us. It is our way of seeing how the world feels about us. It is our way of measuring if the hatred we've experienced, been told about, or grew up fearing is lessening. If our pain will stop being exploited. If love for us will grow beyond hate for us, not only as racial beings, but as people who want to love and be loved in turn.
Seeing that a writer made their character black and that they aren't doing it for a cheap laugh means something to me that I can hardly ever express. Nobody else has to care about this, no. Nobody else has to write about this, no. Nobody can or will force you. Nobody wants to.
But doing it? And doing it right? It just might make all the difference for that person who felt like nobody wants to see them.
Enjoy the thread, I won't hold it up any longer.
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logiccosmic
the Prince of Word Crimes
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Hmm. While I do understand your disgust, I do think it is valuable to self-reflect on the lack of representation among fiction. I know for myself, while coming from a limited scope of fic written by me, I've never had a person of color that wasn't already there, and then they were literally just written as every other character. However, I can't say that I tried to not, just that it, well, didn't really matter to me. I honestly never though, 'hey, let's add some non-standard fic/sci fi/fantasy characters here'. We have enough Nathan Drake clones. That's on me, and something I should resolve.
But on the flip side, it's not easy. I apologize if it seems like whining or chickening out, but it's not something I want to fuck up, or not give the respect and attention it deserves. I don't want to write the Crash of fics, that completely ignores the structural and sociological causes and affects of racism, to focus on 'one character was a racist but now they aren't so racism is solved!'. It's a heavy topic, and one that, coming from my background as a straight white man, needs to be treated with the utmost care and respect. The only bigotry I've ever experienced has been on account of my religion, and that was more harassment and hazing, not, thrown in jail, passed over for job or promotion, and pulled over for being me, among the thousand other injustices. Those kind of experiences are real, heartbreaking, and integral to the identity and lives of African-Americans, and if I am to write a character that is African American that needs to be in the character. Otherwise, like as has been pointed out, I'd just be writing a white guy.
So again, the onus is on me to try to understand more viewpoints, so that I can create characters that aren't just, well, white guy clones.
And that's why I've been appreciating these threads, because it's a conversation we need to have, each time. It's easy to just keep doing the same thing over and over again without self-reflection.
I'm rambling at this point, but I think the take away from our problem threads is that we should think before we write, and remember that our audience is diverse, and so is the world, and therefore so should our fiction.
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As far as mainstream sci-fi and fantasy is concerned, off the top of my head the main ones I can think of with black protagonists are:
Snow Crash (black/Japanese)
American Gods (possibly) and the related Anansi Boys (definitely)
Earthsea (fantasy world, so the dynamics are different)
Perdido Street Station (possibly)
I've heard some Octavia Butler's stuff has black protagonists, but I haven't read it. For some reason I feel like Gurgeh from Player of Games is black, but I'll have to check.
From more recent or less known stuff:
Zen Cho's Sorcerer to the Crown (which is waiting on my shelf to be read) follows the first black head of Britain's magical society in a Victorian(+magic) era.
Nnedi Okorafor's stuff heavily involves African people and cultures.
The second book (and possibly the third, I forget) in Darren Shan's The City trilogy follows a black protagonist.
Snow Crash (black/Japanese)
American Gods (possibly) and the related Anansi Boys (definitely)
Earthsea (fantasy world, so the dynamics are different)
Perdido Street Station (possibly)
I've heard some Octavia Butler's stuff has black protagonists, but I haven't read it. For some reason I feel like Gurgeh from Player of Games is black, but I'll have to check.
From more recent or less known stuff:
Zen Cho's Sorcerer to the Crown (which is waiting on my shelf to be read) follows the first black head of Britain's magical society in a Victorian(+magic) era.
Nnedi Okorafor's stuff heavily involves African people and cultures.
The second book (and possibly the third, I forget) in Darren Shan's The City trilogy follows a black protagonist.
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Ooh, I love Octavia Butler. Definitely read her stuff. I think all her books had black protagonists, or at least the ones I read.
After the lack of fandoms for that sort of thing on SV I think it's the tendency for authors to just write their characters as themselves/a refusal to write original characters who differ too much from the source material in their eyes/not thinking of it that's to blame.
For me, if I'm going to write a character who's part Human, part Cro-Magnon, and part Martian (long story, different project) I don't see why I can't include black characters, aboriginal characters, etc.
After the lack of fandoms for that sort of thing on SV I think it's the tendency for authors to just write their characters as themselves/a refusal to write original characters who differ too much from the source material in their eyes/not thinking of it that's to blame.
For me, if I'm going to write a character who's part Human, part Cro-Magnon, and part Martian (long story, different project) I don't see why I can't include black characters, aboriginal characters, etc.
Look, you shouldn't have to feel tainted for caring about something important just because of outside problems with the writer of the OP. People are using his past to dismiss something that matters, that is a real issue. Fivemarks started this thread without making any LBGTQ attacks and acknowledged other minorities not represented. There was a bit about Asians, but I think that discussion that could have its own value. If we understand it as Asian's may be represented but much like f/f, it isn't actually a good thing, representing either fetishization or simply being white people with a nominally Asian name (I tried to check do a quick survey of the first page quests to see about this, but quickly ran into the problem of "OH GOD why are all the character creations so damn long" problem before giving up). This topic is important, and it wasn't presented as an attack on others, so you shouldn't have to feel bad about it.
This topic is one that's profoundly uncomfortable because I'm less certain of how to prescribe board wide change. With m/m there is an obvious hostility to fight. With f/f there is a set of fetishization and dismissal ("cute lesbians")that can be addressed. With this, there isn't as obvious a culture to push against, only an obnoxious apathy. Or maybe the board is so hostile we don't even recognize it, no one's tried making a black Naruto that takes it's cultural cues from American racial experience. If done, would the pushback be as harsh, or harsher, than the pushback for a gay or trans-Naruto?
I think part of the problem is the heavy fanfic focus and the taint from most popular works having little to no representation. That isn't an excuse, we should work to correct that, much in the way good fanfiction often works to address other flaws in works.
This hits hard. I feel like there is a certain fear, a certain cowardice at the idea of writing racial issues, because what if I get it wrong? And that's not me saying that as a dismissal or a positive, it's a taint, an insipid cowardice. That's on me, and something I need to address, because this is a real problem, and one I doubt is going to solve itself.
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I'd read it if someone wrote it, it sounds really interesting.
I think one way of increasing the number of fanfics would be to increase awareness of works with black protagonists. We already got a list going on this thread, but a thread dedicated to it might work better.
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You'd think after Black Pnather people would understand this, but I guess not ...
As a white dude, I am cautious about attempting to present the black experience. For my own country I would prefer to promote and support indigenous voices, rather than attempt to use my own voice. I'm not from Africa, I'm not from the US, and while I try to educate myself and have developed opinions as a result of that education, I'm aware that I'm an outsider. I could not have made Black Panther.
However, as a white dude I am also really aware at the degree of over-representation that white dudes have. The world is a really colourful place, so I think stories should be as well. You're going to have a bunch of characters, so take the opportunity to mix things up a little - don't think, ah, I can't do that, think about how you can do that. Even if you can't present the full experience of another people, you can at least make some effort to show that the world isn't homogenous.
And if you're making up a whole world, then isn't that a great opportunity to really mix things up?
As a white dude, I am cautious about attempting to present the black experience. For my own country I would prefer to promote and support indigenous voices, rather than attempt to use my own voice. I'm not from Africa, I'm not from the US, and while I try to educate myself and have developed opinions as a result of that education, I'm aware that I'm an outsider. I could not have made Black Panther.
However, as a white dude I am also really aware at the degree of over-representation that white dudes have. The world is a really colourful place, so I think stories should be as well. You're going to have a bunch of characters, so take the opportunity to mix things up a little - don't think, ah, I can't do that, think about how you can do that. Even if you can't present the full experience of another people, you can at least make some effort to show that the world isn't homogenous.
And if you're making up a whole world, then isn't that a great opportunity to really mix things up?
But why mix things up in a fantasy world when you can just do Tolkein, again. But this time STEAMPUNK (Like Eberron), OR THIS TIME POST APOCALYPTIC (Dark Sun), Or this time, with Mary Sues(Faerun)
And in Sci-fi, Pfft. Who cares about minorities. We need more Grizzled White Hard Men doing Hard Things, while Asians are inscrutable and honorable and devoid of morals over there, while all of our people who we say look black are pretty much the British Monarch + Melanin.
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That matter has always struck me as a tad delicate. If you go too far one way its "generic white dude who happens to be black" but too far the other way and its "black stereotype". Which ties into what Ford Prefect says. The root problem isn't that fiction is full of white people, its that writers of fiction is full of white people, who either write what they know (ie white people) or write what they don't know poorly. The only way to correct that is either to get more non-white writers or get white writers to know more. Pushing for writers to include more minorities in their writing is good, but we need to do that and more.
Except, wen we do have minority writers, they're told both by their hire ups AND by their fanbases(through money or through being actually told) that no, they need to put in less minorities and more white people.
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Addendum: where I said "writer" change to "staff". You are right, in some ways the Good Ole Boys at the top are a much worse problem than the lower tiers. The latter are simply ignorant, the former have their heads up their own ass as they convince themselves that what they want is what everyone wants and they're just giving the people what they want its not their fault bullshit. This article is quite illustrative of the issue.
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I think this is the key argument; if someone is going to write a vaguely contemporary world then there should at least be an attempt to properly represent the world in all its varied diversity, albeit that as a writer you are hamstrung a bit by the limitations of your own experience.
Yeah, but like I tried to say before, a true fantasy setting shouldn't really take any ethnic cues from our world, at least not obvious ones. It shouldn't really matter whether your protagonist is black, white, green or purple, because whatever their skin colour their story should be tied into their world, not ours. I'd argue that true fantasy is one of the few genres of fiction that really can be colour blind.
Of course, whether it actually is colour blind - and it still probably isn't - is another matter.