SV has an Imaginary Number problem
- Thread starter Fivemarks
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Cloak&Dagger
Definitely Insane
Writers write what they know. What most writers know is European and East Asian derivative, as are most writers.
What's the solution here? Either you have writers write what they don't know, in which case it becomes a mangled abomination that nobody likes, or you get writers to expand what they know beyond that.
The first is to be avoided, and the second simply won't happen.
The only clear solution is to wait. Once the rest of the world develops to European and East Asian levels, there will be more written about other cultures.
It will be much easier to see a Space Philippines fiction written, for example, once the Philippines is a nation of $60k per capita, rather than a nation of $3k per capita. The Philippines simply isn't going to have a significant number of writers when its GDP per capita is only $3k.
Further, there's the language barriers as well. How many movies have you never even heard of because they're not in a language you speak? Most of them, probably. Now, to be fair, most movies outside the US suck because foreign film industries can't compete, but not all foreign movies do, and the few good ones are being unfairly excluded.
What's the solution here? Either you have writers write what they don't know, in which case it becomes a mangled abomination that nobody likes, or you get writers to expand what they know beyond that.
The first is to be avoided, and the second simply won't happen.
The only clear solution is to wait. Once the rest of the world develops to European and East Asian levels, there will be more written about other cultures.
It will be much easier to see a Space Philippines fiction written, for example, once the Philippines is a nation of $60k per capita, rather than a nation of $3k per capita. The Philippines simply isn't going to have a significant number of writers when its GDP per capita is only $3k.
Further, there's the language barriers as well. How many movies have you never even heard of because they're not in a language you speak? Most of them, probably. Now, to be fair, most movies outside the US suck because foreign film industries can't compete, but not all foreign movies do, and the few good ones are being unfairly excluded.
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So Basically, it all boils down to "Stop complaining black people, Just write your own fiction and stop demanding representation in ours"
Okay.
Okay.
Then that means if I write something, I don't want no complaints if it doesn't have any major Caucasian characters
Okay.
Okay.
Then that means if I write something, I don't want no complaints if it doesn't have any major Caucasian characters
Sure. Do anyone but ignorable dickheads complain about a lack of white characters?
I mean, I'm sure there were some people who complained about the cast of Luke Cage, but I hope no one on this site would care.
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- Location
- Somewhere
So, my question is what happens with settings that have nothing to do with Earth. Dragonlance has Ergothians as being black, but they are an ancient (and pre-Cataclysm) wealthy nation, one of the first two peoples to stand and fight against the Queen of Darkness, with one of their Priest-Generals being in the party with Huma Dragonsbane during the last battle, where She was banished to the Abyss. In later points in the story we have the (female) Ergothian Captain Maquesta Kar-Thon who was one of the only captains to brave the Blood Sea, the greatest blacksmith in the world (as judged by the gods, surpassing even the dwarves) Theros Ironfeld, and Dunbar Mastersmate (the head of the "good" wizard order), all of whom were Ergothians.
But because they never experienced a period of American slavery, are these characters not black?
Theros:
But because they never experienced a period of American slavery, are these characters not black?
Theros:
Cloak&Dagger
Definitely Insane
Sure, I'm willing to make that sacrifice.
UrsaTempest
Don't Panic!
As said beforehand, if I set my setting on SEA, there's likely only token caucasian unless the place is explicitly international school or something like that.
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
Of course. If anything, maybe it's time to turn around the complaints about tokenistic inclusions. For example, Black Panther is an awesome Reverse-Hamlet story about a succession crisis in the African nation of Wakanda, but has a tokenistic inclusion of two North Americans in the form of Everett K. Ross (the CIA dude I had to look up) and Killmonger, even though North Americans are grossly overrepresented already (particularly among blacks on the screen), and such tokenism is a flaw of the film, as it gives an ugly impression that Africans can't even have a cool plot without needing North America to kickstart it.
If it's well written, there'd be no reason to complain. I liked Leopard's Daughter by Lee Killough, and it's a fantasy with no non-black people in it at all.
And in practical terms that's usually how it works; if a group wants more than a handful of things written about it that they won't think are stupid they usually need to write it themselves.
You're not representative.
- Location
- The Intellectual, Moral, and Literal High Ground
You're claiming that most SV users would complain if there no major white characters in a story? Do you have any evidence to back it up?
- Location
- Somewhere
Since it's been claimed that people of color don't count if they are in fantasy settings where there was never European Imperialism and racial slavery, wouldn't that mean that characters from such settings can't be considered white either, since there's no framework for that to effect their cultural identity?
I'm going to say I agree with Fivemarks. The problem I see is that people are deeply flawed about their exploration of someone they may not be able to understand. And I'm mixed race I'd love to see something respectful about another culture--Even if you do have whatever ancestry or look whatever you may not be received warmly by others for political reasons and to be clear I mean people who would prefer if things stay flawed.
One more thing: If you're playing around with something that could offend hundreds of people on the Internet I'd assume you wanna be careful. 'Cause that can get you excommunicated and it's painful to be told to leave forever a place you love. That being said I'll definitely start thinking about ways to respectfully write some of the less represented races in fiction. It'd help if I had a teacher though because I cannot just go browsing anywhere due to OCD.
I hope no one thinks I am a flaming racist now.
One more thing: If you're playing around with something that could offend hundreds of people on the Internet I'd assume you wanna be careful. 'Cause that can get you excommunicated and it's painful to be told to leave forever a place you love. That being said I'll definitely start thinking about ways to respectfully write some of the less represented races in fiction. It'd help if I had a teacher though because I cannot just go browsing anywhere due to OCD.
I hope no one thinks I am a flaming racist now.
- Location
- secret base
- Pronouns
- She/Her
One thing that amuses me about "writers write what they know" is that it can barely be applied to science fiction and fantasy. Are there so many writers who are secretly wizards or orcs? Is there some kind of a secret cabal of writers who are secretly aliens from outer space that write about their secret alien space cultures?
Writers write what they can research and make up, and most of the time, they decide to make shit up. Because research is obviously so damn hard, so why do it when you create your own very special race of things that either barely look human? Of course, that's because those dastardly "SJW" will say mean things because you were lazy, offensive or didn't think about your work's implications. Oh, let me rephrase that: because you were lazy or deliberately offensive.
Also, here's another problem. We do fetishize Japanese culture. Because of all these anime, manga and video games, we have gain such a great insight into someone else's culture, we barely need to do any work anymore. And you know what? Japanese people in Japan barely counts as Asian representation.
SV is supposed to be multi-cultural society, but speaking as an Asian for an Asian country that is not called Japan, China and sometimes India, we fucking exist. Honestly, one way to at least attempt to solve this is to create some kind of a thread where people can freely share parts of their culture, ask questions from members of other cultures and generally try to get some pointers for their basic research.
But why should we care, honestly? Why do anything? When we all inhabit an officially "bigotry-free" forum.
Because maybe - just maybe - we really aren't.
Writers write what they can research and make up, and most of the time, they decide to make shit up. Because research is obviously so damn hard, so why do it when you create your own very special race of things that either barely look human? Of course, that's because those dastardly "SJW" will say mean things because you were lazy, offensive or didn't think about your work's implications. Oh, let me rephrase that: because you were lazy or deliberately offensive.
Also, here's another problem. We do fetishize Japanese culture. Because of all these anime, manga and video games, we have gain such a great insight into someone else's culture, we barely need to do any work anymore. And you know what? Japanese people in Japan barely counts as Asian representation.
SV is supposed to be multi-cultural society, but speaking as an Asian for an Asian country that is not called Japan, China and sometimes India, we fucking exist. Honestly, one way to at least attempt to solve this is to create some kind of a thread where people can freely share parts of their culture, ask questions from members of other cultures and generally try to get some pointers for their basic research.
But why should we care, honestly? Why do anything? When we all inhabit an officially "bigotry-free" forum.
Because maybe - just maybe - we really aren't.
- Location
- Hucknall, Notts, UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You could maybe make that argument. In that situation you are basically saying that a character's race doesn't have the same meaning as in real life and is therefore not relevant to real life discussions of race. Which is fine as long as your worldbuilding and storytelling works. The likelihood is that, unless you were an absolutely amazing writer and worldbuilder, you would piss someone off though, because they would either assume an ulterior motive or see an allegory that may or may not have been there.
- Location
- Somewhere
I brought it up because this thread began with people complaining that there aren't enough black people in fantasy and scifi, only to then say that they only count if they have the exact same experiences as African Americans.
There are numerous examples of black cultures in fantasy settings, but most of the prominent examples I can think of aren't racially discriminated against and don't have a history of being slaves. Examples like Forgotten Realms' Chult, which is not!Africa if it was ruled by immortal paladins. Or Dragonlance's Ergoth, an ancient empire known for producing great sailors and shipbuilders that was one of the first nations to answer the call of the Good deities to stand against the Queen of Darkness and her ogre and dragon armies. Or if we want an evil but still respected example we have the Firstborn of Barsoom, where the black Barsoomians are the most advanced and powerful civilization.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Here's the thing, though. You are perfectly justified to demand more black representation in fiction. But when you at the same time complain about people who don't really read as black, even when they 'officially' are... well, that creates a trilemma for people:
1) Write no black people. Bad.
2) Write black people without specific cultural markers. Bad.
3) Write black people and try to code them black - but mostly likely fuck up and offend people because you relied on stereotypes. Obviously also bad.
So what are people supposed to do? Of course the ideal would be to write black people who are properly coded as black, but well, it's not like we free time writers can hire a consultant or anything. We can ask black people, of course, but well, I wouldn't even know enough to know what questions to ask. I wouldn't even know where to begin.
And that is RL modern settings which is, let's be honest, really not what SV is about. The majority of stuff on this site are some sort of sci-fi or fantasy. A fantasy setting might not even have an equivalent for Afro-Americans, because you really need a specific chain of events to get to there. There could be not!Zulu or not!Mali or not!Ethiopia of course, and really after not!Vikings #3034 and not!England #5044 there should be, but that would then in fact require a different set of cultural markers, and hence a different coding. And as for sci-fi - sure, one should include black characters there. But how to code them black and at the same time show future cultural changes? Especially if you don't want to write Ethiopia (or for that matter Britain, China etc) IN SPAAACE?
Really, all in all, I'd pay attention to have people from different parts of the world, from different countries and cultures, and yes, also with different skin tones - but I wouldn't myself pay too much attention to coding.
PhoenixMercurous
Soaring through the stars
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Why are you setting up a false dichotomy? You can research people and cultures in more depths than just stereotypes without hiring a consultant.
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I agree that Fivemarks is being a bit frustrating at times, from what I can tell he's using "Black" when he probably should be using "African-American" for clarity. I'd guess most other black ethnicitics are just as underrepresented as African-Americans, so the distinction can matter. Representing other black cultures and/or ethnicities probably isn't a bad thing for representation, though it's not what Fivemarks is asking for most of the time, so far as I can tell.
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Representing African-American culture does have the potential issue that racism and slavery have impacted their culture, so reproducing African-American culture in distant-future sci-fi or fantasy stories probably requires having in-universe racism. To avoid normalizing racism (which is bad), the story will need to directly address the racism present in the work. This adds extra themes and work on the author's part, so I can understand why people would shy away from it. There is a difference between "understandable" and "right," so there's probably a good argument that more people should put in the work to represent African-Americans and address racism. There's probably also an argument that doing so would make the story better. I say "probably an argument" because I'm feeling kind of lousy (stupid pollen allergies) and don't think I can make those arguments. There may well be a way to create a fictional culture drawing from Africa-American culture without having fictional racism, I just can't think of any. If anyone has an idea they should share it.
Near future sci-fi and fantasy set in the real world stories don't have to create fictional racism to represent African-Americans and their cultures and deal with the consequences of creating in-universe racism. It's probably still a good idea to address the racial issues the characters face, though not addressing them doesn't normalize racism the same way creating fictional racism does. Thinking about it, racism is (sadly) a fairly substantial part of the human experience for quite a lot of humanity, so there should probably be more stories addressing it.
Disclaimers: I don't have first hand experience with systematic oppression. Also I'm feeling tired and having allergies troubles, so I'm not quite thinking straight. I apologize in advance if I said something really stupid and didn't catch it or misunderstood someone's post.
Honestly? I'm 100% fine with dark skinned people in fantasy stories unrelated to real earth, same for sci-fi stories. They just have to be well written, and not be a racist drawing.
... I have bigger problems with Sci-fi stories that try to, say, use white androids in the near future as stand ins for and as an allegory to African Americans and the racism that effects them on a day to day basis. Even more so if that story is being written by, say, people in France without any people of color working on the writing whatsoever.
... I have bigger problems with Sci-fi stories that try to, say, use white androids in the near future as stand ins for and as an allegory to African Americans and the racism that effects them on a day to day basis. Even more so if that story is being written by, say, people in France without any people of color working on the writing whatsoever.
Private Lee O'Malley
Easygoing Egoist
- Location
- Gensokyo
There iz no messages in ze game. No meaning at all! Iz just gaem!
Bezidez, I have many companion of dark skin. I cannot be ze racism! Judge me by mai wohk!
ignore ze fact ve used a slave song in our trailor. hon hon hon i make ze gud gaem!
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- Location
- Cardassia Prime
Could you specify what makes a black character come over as a generic white dude? Like what would be required to make a black character act black because I feel worried that might lead into stereotypes.
That's ironic because I didn't even realize his father was white for a long time, as while the character frequently mentions his mother's side of the family like her being a Fula with lots of Temne and Susu relatives, his father's family is never mentioned nor is any deal made of him being a white Brit marrying into a big extended Sierra Leonean family.
Peter also tends to be observant when white people are being racist to him, even passively.
It's a matter of how they act, their outlook on life, and a bunch of little things. It's hard to explain, but when you see it you know you've got an authetic minority character. It's not speaking in some white guy's idea of what AAVE is and throwing around outdated slang while doing Stereotypical Black Things like Sports.
It's like, a character who is *just* a white guy in black face would have us be told he's black, but he'd speak like an upper class British Nobleman- or he'd talk in a completely generic North American standard accent. None of the code switching that people actually do.
- Location
- The Intellectual, Moral, and Literal High Ground
So one of the black characters I'm including in my Yugioh GX fanfic is an extroverted stage magician who uses slight of hand and other tricks to make life more interesting. He was inspired after reading about Richard Potter and hopes to become a famous magician. He'd either be fully introduced at the start or be introduced to the story fully after being accused of cheating using slight of hand during a duel, then duel with his hands tied to prove his skill. He uses a Spellcaster deck and always has something useful up his sleeves.
What can I add to him that would have him be black without just slapping blackface on a white guy? I haven't decided on a name either, but because it's Yugioh GX it will involve a pun on his personality/theme.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No, but orcs are never just orcs. They are the crude and barbaric WWI soldiers, or Native Americans, or British soccer hooligans. Fantasy and Sci-Fi cultures are our own, sometimes filtered through an interesting prism or a fascinating what-if, other times just a lazy copypasta or laden with unfortunate implications. For example I could do without all the hook nosed greedy Space Jews wherein "being ugly and greedy" are seemingly made into outright biotruth.
See, the only reason I know about code switching is because I saw a sitcom episode about it. I seriously doubt it's something I could do authentically.
Also I have no idea how things like that would apply in a story set two hundred years from now or in a fantasy universe.
Maybe in the original Tolkien, but they've long since become generic threats with just as many social implications as animated skeletons and giant birds.
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