Strategic Arms Quest 3/2: Armor Edition

[Winged_One²]

I'm not even going to bother listing the cloth-belt Potsdam gun

Design	Muzzle Velocity	Sustained RoF	Failures during 30min	Fuzes
Baal	745	81	Three non-ignitions (two due to primer)	Doesn't fuze on canvas until 500m
Potsdam Armory (With disintegrating belt)	720	460	Rampant overheating	It Just Works
Torpedo Boat Gun	865	65	None(?)	Only works sometimes on 200m canvas
Furrer & Mukame	870	520	10 Out-of-battery, water jacket ran dry	Solid
Armor Branch	684	500	Two extractor failures, one overheat	Solid
Lightning Knife	853	890	Three barrels lost, gun continued running	Solid

I am very underwhelmed with the velocity on the 46x400 cartridge. I want to throw out the toggle-lock memes for being nothing but bad memes. The Armor Branch autocannon is disappointing in velocity for an AA gun, ask them to rechamber it in 19x110 (Lightning Knife), then it's a very solid close-range AA gun (I mean, that's basically 20mm USN as used in the Oerlikon).

So, the issue is that we got two great cartridges (19x110 and 40x360) and three great guns (Baal, Potsdam, 2cm SlK). They just don't appear in combination.

@7734 are any of these calibers proprietary or can we just tell Baal and Potsdam to try and make a gun for the 40mm cartridge (it should work well for Baal, not sure if the Potsdam gun can do that as easily)?

 

[Burning Baron]

If the Lightning knife is used for the point defense role, it would likely be in the clear as far as overheating. Short bursts with a gap between to let it cool. That way it won't kill itself

And the Navy gun worked really well, as 40 Mike Mike tends to. The only real contender it has is the Pots-damn Armory. But it loves melting. And if it's ornery during chrono testing, which is three rounds fired by themselves, then it seems too unreliable.

If we can get fuzes for the 2cm gun from the armor branch, and they work at ranges less than 200m, then Lightning Knife has a contender for short range use. The Torpedo Boat Gun is about the only option for longer-range intercepts as is. But that RoF has me worried. Although 865 m/s in nothing to sniffle at. It is the second fastest gun we tested today.

Too bad we won't be getting the mythical meme-riffic Long 88.

 

[Ash19256]

And the Navy gun worked really well, as 40 Mike Mike tends to. The only real contender it has is the Pots-damn Armory. But it loves melting. And if it's ornery during chrono testing, which is three rounds fired by themselves, then it seems too unreliable.

Click to shrink...

Keep in mind that was with the basically useless cloth belts. Once it was using disintegrating belts during the sustained fire testing, the issues went away other than overheating after sustained bursts.

 

[Burning Baron]

Keep in mind that was with the basically useless cloth belts. Once it was using disintegrating belts during the sustained fire testing, the issues went away other than overheating after sustained bursts.

Click to shrink...

The Potsdam Armory gun, meanwhile, clocked in at 720 meters per second, and during testing proved disturbingly ornery with afixed metallic belts used.

Click to shrink...

I'm afraid that simply isn't so. And then, the test crew had issues with the metal belt during sustained fire.

The Potsdam Armory gun had issues, as testing crews quickly determined it would need two tests. The first test, with metallic continuous feed belts, was riddled with jams, extractor failures, shell lift failures, and failure to feed. Stopages were had nearly every three minutes, and the gun had the tendency to overheat massively on at least two occasions. After the numbers rolled in, the consensus was the gun averaged roughly two hundred and twenty rounds per minute, with a frankly disastrous number of jams and two one-minute periods spent cooling the gun after it had started suffering runoffs.

Click to shrink...

Only after letting the gun cool in its entirety and switching belts did it function properly. And it still has a heating problem.

 

[Ash19256]

Only after letting the gun cool in its entirety and switching belts did it function properly. And it still has a heating problem.

Click to shrink...

Except you'll note that I specified disintegrating belts. As in, the kind they switched to.

As for the heating problem, there's a reason I want to suggest that Potsdam add a water jacket that can be topped off as needed - that should at least help mitigate heating problems during sustained fire.

 

[7734]

@7734 are any of these calibers proprietary or can we just tell Baal and Potsdam to try and make a gun for the 40mm cartridge (it should work well for Baal, not sure if the Potsdam gun can do that as easily)?

Click to shrink...

Aside from the 19mm and 46mm, as service cartridges none of the rounds are proprietary. Potsdam will not be happy having to rebuild this gun in another cartridge, though: this is a plane gun (which is where half the issues started) and it was designed, built, and tested around being on a plane. Throwing half or more of the optimization out in a rechambering would not make friends. Likewise, the Slk.69 is running out of ways to extend it's life cycle. It can't shoot HE (never has), the muzzle velocity could be a lot better, and a proper redesign to take a metallic bell would clean up a lot of issues.

Keep in mind that was with the basically useless cloth belts. Once it was using disintegrating belts during the sustained fire testing, the issues went away other than overheating after sustained bursts.

Click to shrink...

Also note that wasn't a cloth belt, that was a metallic non disintegrating belt. Very important difference; since if you actually look at pictures of the two you'll see why one might have trouble.

 

[Ash19256]

Also note that wasn't a cloth belt, that was a metallic non disintegrating belt. Very important difference; since if you actually look at pictures of the two you'll see why one might have trouble.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough. Although I'm curious why Potsdam didn't just tell the Luftwaffe to invest in disintegrating belts and just go with those - it seems like that solves pretty much all of the problems that could theoretically be preventing the gun from working in an aircraft.

 

[Winged_One²]

So a hotter cartridge is not really an option for the Potsdam. Ask them to give us a version with a water jacket and it will be fine. Ask Baal to rechamber down to 40mm, and that gun is good too.

 

[Burning Baron]

We aren't testing an aircraft gun. We're testing an anti-aircraft gun. We will be attempting to use these to remove aircraft from the ground. It doesn't need to work in an aircraft.

 

[Ash19256]

We aren't testing an aircraft gun. We're testing an anti-aircraft gun. We will be attempting to use these to remove aircraft from the ground. It doesn't need to work in an aircraft.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, but Potsdam will need to, effectively, completely re-engineer the gun to use a new cartridge, which means that they'd likely be heavily delayed and thus hate our guts for a bit at least.

 

[lucarionape]

I'd like rob ask, what are the transport configurations for these guns ? Are they mounted ready to fire or packed away ?

 

[KhazintheDark]

Ah the illogicalities of businesses. You bought our shit and are making us a ton of money but we have to change it because it isn't as required so we hate you since we aren't making money as fast as we could have been.

 

[7734]

Fair enough. Although I'm curious why Potsdam didn't just tell the Luftwaffe to invest in disintegrating belts and just go with those - it seems like that solves pretty much all of the problems that could theoretically be preventing the gun from working in an aircraft.

Click to shrink...

Well, the Luftwaffe did tell them that, but getting it through the Exchequer is hard. Money is hard, ok?

Ah the illogicalities of businesses. You bought our shit and are making us a ton of money but we have to change it because it isn't as required so we hate you since we aren't making money as fast as we could have been.

Click to shrink...

Potsdam is a State Armory, they don't give a fuck about money. They would hate you for a re-engineering, and they would hate you more if you made them licence a proprietary round to do things with. K&H will squeeze every penny out of the government they can, which means dealing with the Exchequer. Blood feuds would be declared over that many migraines back in the day.

I'd like rob ask, what are the transport configurations for these guns ? Are they mounted ready to fire or packed away ?

Click to shrink...

They went out of shipping create and on to these beat up old artillery limbers that are older than you are.

 

[lucarionape]

So they're not expected to be used during a fighting advance, good to know.

 

[Ash19256]

So they're not expected to be used during a fighting advance, good to know.

Click to shrink...

The AA vehicle that will be designed to haul the guns will be, however, so keep that in mind.

 

[Winged_One²]

[X]Plan Modifications
-[X]Ask Potsdam to give us a water jacket
-[X]Ask Baal to give us a gun in 40x360
-[X]Drop Lightning Knife, 2cm SlK, Furrer Gun
-[X]Continue testing, test new guns for sustained fire when they come in

So they're not expected to be used during a fighting advance, good to know.

Click to shrink...

That's the completely wrong conclusion. There is no transport config because we don't even have a mounting.

 

[Ash19256]

[X]Plan Modifications
-[X]Ask Potsdam to give us a water jacket
-[X]Ask Baal to give us a gun in 40x360
-[X]Drop Lightning Knife, 2cm SlK, Furrer Gun
-[X]Continue testing, test new guns for sustained fire when they come in

Click to shrink...

... I'm curious why you're dropping the Lightning Knife - given some modifications to correct it's existing faults, it could be an excellent weapon to fulfill the "low" portion of the "high-low" split requested by our superiors. The Baal design, or the Potsdam weapon, would be quite good for fulfilling the "high" portion of that, especially with the Baal rechambered for 40x360 and the Potsdam fitted with a water jacket, but we shouldn't dismiss part of our requirements.

 

[Winged_One²]

... I'm curious why you're dropping the Lightning Knife - given some modifications to correct it's existing faults, it could be an excellent weapon to fulfill the "low" portion of the "high-low" split requested by our superiors. The Baal design, or the Potsdam weapon, would be quite good for fulfilling the "high" portion of that, especially with the Baal rechambered for 40x360 and the Potsdam fitted with a water jacket, but we shouldn't dismiss part of our requirements.

Click to shrink...

The Lightning Knife is way too heavy for what I want for a light AA gun. What I want is essentially the successor to the 2cm SlK, a single-barrel rather lightweight autocannon that you can just put on a pintle mount of one vehicle in a platoon instead of the 13.2mm. Not something that needs a dedicated vehicle.

 

[7734]

The Lightning Knife is way too heavy for what I want for a light AA gun. What I want is essentially the successor to the 2cm SlK, a single-barrel rather lightweight autocannon that you can just put on a pintle mount of one vehicle in a platoon instead of the 13.2mm. Not something that needs a dedicated vehicle.

Click to shrink...

To be fair, when it comes to weight you get what you pay for- a machine with incredible RoF, a flat shooting bullet, and the ability to chug along even when it has one barrel in nine operable for firing conditions. Likewise, if you want a gun that's for a pintle mount, your best bet is honestly the Furrer, since it is the lightest of the guns and most amnicable to being thrown around a lot.

So they're not expected to be used during a fighting advance, good to know.

Click to shrink...

We aren't testing an aircraft gun. We're testing an anti-aircraft gun. We will be attempting to use these to remove aircraft from the ground. It doesn't need to work in an aircraft.

Click to shrink...

Well yeah, but this is SACQ. You get exactly what you asked for.

 

[Ash19256]

The Lightning Knife is way too heavy for what I want for a light AA gun. What I want is essentially the successor to the 2cm SlK, a single-barrel rather lightweight autocannon that you can just put on a pintle mount of one vehicle in a platoon instead of the 13.2mm. Not something that needs a dedicated vehicle.

Click to shrink...

... That honestly seems like it would be sub-optimal at best for an AA vehicle weapon, or as an AA vehicle period. There's a reason that you don't generally see 20mm anything fitted to the roofs of tanks these days unless they're in proper motorized turret mounts on top of the main turret.

I suspect what's happening here is a disconnect between what some of us want. You want something that can just be fitted to a whole lot of tanks to provide "low" coverage, with our AA tank for high coverage, whereas I see "low" coverage as being provided by something similar to a M163 Vulcan Air Defense System advancing with the tanks, while High Coverage is provided by something like the Flakpanzer IV Ostwind using either the Potsdam gun or the Baal gun rechambered for 40x360.

 

[Winged_One²]

So, after talking with 7734 and NothingNow, I made my own SACQ. Would you like to try your hands at developing a nuclear weapon?

There's a reason that you don't generally see 20mm anything fitted to the roofs of tanks these days unless they're in proper motorized turret mounts on top of the main turret.

Click to shrink...

Yes, because for current day threats, that's terrible. Putting a 20mm on the tank was all the rage for quite some time, the MBT-70 for example had one, though most stayed with .50s. And I'm not thinking that much about tanks here, but also about our trucks. They can be fitted with a 13.2mm, but giving one truck in every Motor Rifle Platoon a 20mm is going to be a significant increase in firepower for them, not just against air threats but also against ground threats, and it is significantly cheaper.

 

[Ash19256]

So, after talking with 7734 and NothingNow, I made my own SACQ. Would you like to try your hands at developing a nuclear weapon?

Yes, because for current day threats, that's terrible. Putting a 20mm on the tank was all the rage for quite some time, the MBT-70 for example had one, though most stayed with .50s. And I'm not thinking that much about tanks here, but also about our trucks. They can be fitted with a 13.2mm, but giving one truck in every Motor Rifle Platoon a 20mm is going to be a significant increase in firepower for them, not just against air threats but also against ground threats, and it is significantly cheaper.

Click to shrink...

True, but for anti-air defense, the relatively slow rate of fire necessitated by a light weight weapon, combined with the low muzzle velocity necessitated by shortening the barrel to make a pintle mount viable, means that such weapons would be fairly ineffectual as anti-aircraft weapons.

 

[NothingNow]

True, but for anti-air defense, the relatively slow rate of fire necessitated by a light weight weapon, combined with the low muzzle velocity necessitated by shortening the barrel to make a pintle mount viable, means that such weapons would be fairly ineffectual as anti-aircraft weapons.

Click to shrink...

That just means you need more of them or to neck down. A twin or quad mount on the bed of a truck won't keep up with tanks, but will possibly make people less likely to attack a column. TBH as it is a quad 13.2 setup is probably good enough, though a twin 20mm mount would be neat. As it is, they're probably replacing something like the M.G.-Wagen 36 (If.5) as the army motorizes anyway.

 

[noliar]

For target drones valved pulse jet engines are cheap and easy way to power them.

 

[NothingNow]

For target drones valved pulse jet engines are cheap and easy way to power them.

Click to shrink...

Motorcycle engines are cheaper tbh.