Remove ads

Star Wars EU Retrospect

Reader mode
Arthur Frayn said:
Oh, sure. It's just that, for me, the problems with the Prequels are so deep tissue that I think there's really no way to improve them without making major changes and, well, why stop at just tweaking around the edges?

I think I said this over on the TLJ thread, but the easies (and possibly least "intrusive") fix to the Prequels is to just make it obvious to the audience that PALPATINE'S BEHIND IT ALL, along with making the major characters (namely, Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Pamde) aware that there's some unseen figure directing both the Republic and the Separatists, but unaware of who it actually is. As it stands in the films, I don't think they're ever even aware of Sidious as an actual player until maybe the halfway point of ROTS, maybe? Have Obi-Wan and Padme be convinced they're all getting played by some mysterious third party, with the Jedi Council refusing to believe it because "Oh well we would have detected a Sith Lord" (or whatever) to keep the "The Jedi were brought down by their own hubris and ossified thinking" plotline.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, in episode 2 Yoda, Windu, and Kenobi were all aware that Darth Tyranus had set up the clone army, and they were pretty sure the Sith were working with the CIS given how the Sith had helped the Trade Federation years before. So yes, they actually did know that the Sith were setting up both sides of the war, they just didn't know how deep it went. Both the EU and the canon series also show that they were searching throughout the years between Episode 1 and Episode 3 for the Sith, and IIRC the EU even had them think it was Palpatine, but they figured no Sith would have that much power and risk throwing it all away in a war.

And given Palpatine's ancient statues and love of obscure lore (he had like Sith and ancient leader statues in his office), his mental resistance was probably seen as some kind of training he did in case something like the old days happened again. The Jedi also probably figured no Sith could keep himself from going full crazy for as long as Palpatine did.
 
Last edited:
75% Certain said:
Well, the upside to the proposal is that Han can't be half as bad at ruling the galaxy as his wife was during her painful years as Chief of State!

Granted, you can rightfully blame Bantam's still-tenuous grasp of the setting for some of it if you're inclined to be Doylist, or emphasize what little she had to work with if you prefer a Watsonian defense; in the end, though, she still blundered face-first into inexplicable crises and became emblematic of the New Republic's unseasoned and unsteady approach to galactic governance.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

In the interest of saving time lets just pretend i rewrote what i said earlier about how the EU authors had to have problems to drive their stories.

Offscreen you probably have many NR successes and hundreds of worlds enjoying peace and prosperity, but stories need conflict.


Edit:

Hmn yeah i basically had the same complaint:

Chloe Sullivan said:
The problem is that while presumably, the NR has a government that actually does stuff and implements democracy Watsonianly, we see none of this Doyalistically. Honestly, all we know about how the Senate and NR governance work is... mostly that it doesn't? They kinda need to have problems to have an interesting plot, so we basically only see the government when it's fucking up.

Combine this with politically-right modes of "military honorable and noble, politicians evil" caricature, and well. Honestly, the New Republic is, from the doyalist perspective, a raging dumpster fire of a government,
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Last edited:
Small Nerd said:
In AOTC Dooku does tell Obi-Wan about Darth Sidious controlling the Republic, but Obi-Wan doesn't seem to believe him. The idea is there, Lucas just bungled the execution again.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, it seems an obvious lie to spread dissent, especially given Dooku later reveals he went full Sith. Later on as things moved forward they reevaluated that opinion, (The Clone Wars covers this), but they didn't get it really narrowed down till the last moments of the war, and RotS.

Q99 said:
I can see some of the worlds that were in the largely-ineffective CIS senate seen in a few TCW episodes joining up, realizing the CIS marginalized them too, but the Rebellion/New Republic I doubt would put up with any 'the CIS was right,' BS. And there's also a possibility the Empire could turn these into big recruiting worlds- swoop in, say the CIS was exploiting them, funnel their anger at going from neglected to neglected into finally being 'recognized'- as long as they funnel in a lot of stormtroopers to the cause. It's a pretty exploitable situation, truth be told.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Essential Guide to Warfare kinda touches on this, and Jason Fry in either the notes or the cut content wishes he'd spent more space on it. From what I recall, the Rebellion did not want to be seen as a successor movement to the CIS, for some honestly pretty good reasons: Grievous, the fact CIS lost, Grievous, the various exploitative megacorps as opposed to an actually restorative movement for the Republic, and did I mention fucking Grievous. It was really bad optics to be seen as to tightly linked to the CIS.

Which isn't to say it didn't have a lot of broad support from former CIS members and planets, but the Empire broke and controlled the core of the CIS pretty well, so help there was likely limited- including the heavy industry that actually made the CIS a military threat. I can see just to much Imperial lock down on the core CIS worlds to really get traction for rebellion going galactic scale- to say nothing of fates like the one that awaited the Genosians.

FFG has done some neat things with the former CIS- Nemodians are noted to be trying to shake the cowardly CEO stereotype, and their are few NPCs with CIS backgrounds, and one of the suggested group bases is a former CIS project.
 
Kylar said:
Well, it seems an obvious lie to spread dissent, especially given Dooku later reveals he went full Sith. Later on as things moved forward they reevaluated that opinion, (The Clone Wars covers this), but they didn't get it really narrowed down till the last moments of the war, and RotS.


The Essential Guide to Warfare kinda touches on this, and Jason Fry in either the notes or the cut content wishes he'd spent more space on it. From what I recall, the Rebellion did not want to be seen as a successor movement to the CIS, for some honestly pretty good reasons: Grievous, the fact CIS lost, Grievous, the various exploitative megacorps as opposed to an actually restorative movement for the Republic, and did I mention fucking Grievous. It was really bad optics to be seen as to tightly linked to the CIS.

Which isn't to say it didn't have a lot of broad support from former CIS members and planets, but the Empire broke and controlled the core of the CIS pretty well, so help there was likely limited- including the heavy industry that actually made the CIS a military threat. I can see just to much Imperial lock down on the core CIS worlds to really get traction for rebellion going galactic scale- to say nothing of fates like the one that awaited the Genosians.

FFG has done some neat things with the former CIS- Nemodians are noted to be trying to shake the cowardly CEO stereotype, and their are few NPCs with CIS backgrounds, and one of the suggested group bases is a former CIS project.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I should get the Warfare Guide, shouldn't I?
 
Kylar said:
It's by far and away one of the most useful and informative lore books for the EU. I can be contrarian on some of the stuff it shows, but it's deliberately misleading at points (ewoks) so that just means working as intended.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I love it and Jedi vs Sith and The Essential Chronology and The Essential Atlas. I don't know which I honestly enjoy most, although it's probably Warfare.
 
I read that Neimoidians were literally plague and parasite carriers. Does anyone know what EU material made that a thing and how long was it a thing? Because it's kinda laughable to me that not only are they are greedy businessmen, but they're a species of typhoid marys. That's laying it on a little thick for such a goofy group of villains.
 
Southshore said:
I read that Neimoidians were literally plague and parasite carriers. Does anyone know what EU material made that a thing and how long was it a thing? Because it's kinda laughable to me that not only are they are greedy businessmen, but they're a species of typhoid marys. That's laying it on a little thick for such a goofy group of villains.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
First I've heard of it- honestly sounds more like fan fic dumb then anything.

@The Englanderish, you got anything?
 
Kylar said:
First I've heard of it- honestly sounds more like fan fic dumb then anything.

@The Englanderish, you got anything?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
First I'm hearing of it, but a quick wiki search turns up this:
Article:
Neimoidians are known by most denizens of the galaxy as being notorious virus carriers, responsible for such diseases as the Great Pandemic of Deersheba and the Intestinal Revenge of Bars Barka, with many claiming that the chief export of Neimoidia was Brainworm Rot Type C.[16]​ This history of reported disease cases grew so virulent that by 6 ABY, Neimoidia was officially quarantined and declared off limits to all travelers.

And it cites Galactic Phrasebook & Travel Guide, a rl book published in 2001. It's apparently written from the POV of an in-universe author - a human media mogul so influential that he was able to maintain his own corporate holonet separate to the Empire's - i.e. it's both an in-universe book and a rl reference book. So basically take any 'facts' within with a grain of salt.
 
Wait- 6ABY. Six years after Yavin.

Yeah, marking that one down to racism. Because it's the kind of dumb, over the top stereotype that's emblematic of such things, and the Empire certainly isn't going to stomp it out.
 
Mechasaurian said:
Man, every time someone complains about the incompetence of the Legends New Republic, all I think about is how good the DisCan version makes them look.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You mean the government that had 25 years of peace, actual honest to god, things are fine, peace? The government that took a concerted alt-right/fascist infiltration to prevent it from being effective, and then only died because who the hell plans for a multi-planetary annihilation shot from across the goddamn galaxy, followed by a sieg hiel'ing new order that's done a damn good job of hiding? Because that's not exactly a comparison that comes out favorably to the government who's incompetence allowed for triple-digit trillions to be killed because the chief of state is a judgmental grudge-holding jackass who undermined the war effort against an existential threat to sate his paranoid ego. At least the canon NR fell because of an effective cheap shot and deliberate enemy action disguised as incompetent ego-stroking, instead of actual incompetent ego-stroking.
 
Richardson said:
You mean the government that had 25 years of peace, actual honest to god, things are fine, peace? The government that took a concerted alt-right/fascist infiltration to prevent it from being effective, and then only died because who the hell plans for a multi-planetary annihilation shot from across the goddamn galaxy, followed by a sieg hiel'ing new order that's done a damn good job of hiding? Because that's not exactly a comparison that comes out favorably to the government who's incompetence allowed for triple-digit trillions to be killed because the chief of state is a judgmental grudge-holding jackass who undermined the war effort against an existential threat to sate his paranoid ego. At least the canon NR fell because of an effective cheap shot and deliberate enemy action disguised as incompetent ego-stroking, instead of actual incompetent ego-stroking.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

DisCon NR prided itself on not being an authoritarian centralized government, yet folded like a wet blanket after losing only 5 planets. Also of note is that the FO are depicted as being complete overcompensating shit heads, so losing to them is all the more pathetic.

Say what you will of the Vong, but at least they were a credible threat.
 
Last edited:
Southshore said:
DisCon NR prided itself on not being an authoritarian centralized government, yet folded like a wet blanket after losing only 5 planets.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Why, it's almost like they disarmed out of a galactic PTSD, only for what military they did have to get blown the fuck up when five planets were sniped from across the galaxy, followed by galactic neonazis showing up with carrier battle groups to smash anyone who actually tried to fight back. Furthermore, we're not actually sure how much force the galaxy fought back with, only that the major systems were either already on the FO's side, or got rolled by enough force to wipe them out in a few days.
 
Richardson said:
Why, it's almost like they disarmed out of a galactic PTSD, only for what military they did have to get blown the fuck up when five planets were sniped from across the galaxy, followed by galactic neonazis showing up with carrier battle groups to smash anyone who actually tried to fight back. Furthermore, we're not actually sure how much force the galaxy fought back with, only that the major systems were either already on the FO's side, or got rolled by enough force to wipe them out in a few days.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

They gave up faster than France.

Fact of the matter is, TLJ was a terrible movie that put everything on Leia and her shitty band of losers. It didn't have to be that way, they didn't have to make everyone in the universe aside from Rey suck.
 
Last edited:
Southshore said:
They gave up faster than France.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ah yes, because France completely gave up after the Germans invaded, and didn't, say, have an effective and organized resistance for the next 4 years that in turn aided the Allies in liberating the country during D-Day?

Go up to the nearest native French person and tell them that France gave up during WWII. Go on. I'll call the ambulance.
 
Last edited:
... Oh for the love of-

Please tell me we're not doing this again. Can't you just make a separate thread for the EU vs. Disney debate?
 
Leeanderthal said:
Ah yes, because France completely gave up after the Germans invaded, and didn't, say, have an effective and organized resistance for the next 4 years that in turn aided the Allies in liberating the country during D-Day?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

They weren't very effective. That's a myth propagated by national pride. The reality was resistance groups were more likely to fight one another than the Germans. You know how France is home to like a hundred different political parties? It was worse back then and they all hated one another as much as they hated the Germans. So much so that Allied command feared arming them as it might have lead to a civil war in the aftermath of WWII as La Resistance groups were known to stockpile supplies rather than use them. You know, so they could fight the next war once the current one was over.

Go up to the nearest native French person and tell them that France gave up during WWII. Go on. I'll call the ambulance.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Wouldn't be the first time I'd been hit for pointing out to someone they were wrong.

Bottom-line, it's ridiculous to say DisCon NR is superior to the EU one if for no other reason than Disney's villains are all terrible. When all the bad guys are morons, the heroes can hardly be regarded as such.

The Englanderish said:
... Oh for the love of-

Please tell me we're not doing this again. Can't you just make a separate thread for the EU vs. Disney debate?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Comparisons are useful for pointing out the details. Pointing out what made the EU NR good is in line with the topic, even if it's in comparison to something other than what was the EU.
 
Last edited:
Southshore said:
They gave up faster than France.

Fact of the matter is, TLJ was a terrible movie that put everything on Leia and her shitty band of losers. It didn't have to be that way, they didn't have to make everyone in the universe aside from Rey suck.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I thought that TLJ (and the rest of the current era) contained so little information about the wider going-ons in the galaxy that at best all you know is that the FO are on the up-and-up? Like, when did the Republic actually surrender? Where do we hear about the FO going on the offensive or saying "we've captured X number of worlds"?

That's usually one of the criticisms I've seen, that there's so little information about the greater scale that there's no sense of proper perspective for how strong or weak any faction is.
 
Last edited:
lelenoi said:
I thought that TLJ (and the rest of the current era) contained so little information about the wider going-ons in the galaxy that at best all you know is that the FO are on the up-and-up? Like, when did the Republic actually surrender? Where do we hear about the FO going on the offensive or saying "we've captured X number of worlds"?

That's usually one of the criticisms I've seen, that there's so little information about the greater scale that there's no sense of proper perspective for how strong or weak any faction is.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes. Has the Republic surrendered? Do they have someone *to* surrender? Is it more just viewed as a foregone conclusion with no fleet (I think this)?

A tight story focus can be fine, but you need universe building and TLJ had less than TFA, which still had notable holes even as it did establish some stuff.
 
lelenoi said:
I thought that TLJ (and the rest of the current era) contained so little information about the wider going-ons in the galaxy that at best all you know is that the FO are on the up-and-up? Like, when did the Republic actually surrender? Where do we hear about the FO going on the offensive or saying "we've captured X number of worlds"?

That's usually one of the criticisms I've seen, that there's so little information about the greater scale that there's no sense of proper perspective for how strong or weak any faction is.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

At the risk of seeming like a hypocrite or in fact being one, it's not the thread for this discussion. :p
 
Richardson said:
You mean the government that had 25 years of peace, actual honest to god, things are fine, peace? The government that took a concerted alt-right/fascist infiltration to prevent it from being effective, and then only died because who the hell plans for a multi-planetary annihilation shot from across the goddamn galaxy, followed by a sieg hiel'ing new order that's done a damn good job of hiding? Because that's not exactly a comparison that comes out favorably to the government who's incompetence allowed for triple-digit trillions to be killed because the chief of state is a judgmental grudge-holding jackass who undermined the war effort against an existential threat to sate his paranoid ego. At least the canon NR fell because of an effective cheap shot and deliberate enemy action disguised as incompetent ego-stroking, instead of actual incompetent ego-stroking.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

What I know is that Palpatine won.

He won because he kept Mothma, Ackbar, Leia et al so terrified of him - even after his defeat and death - that they gutted and lobotomized the New Republic, resulting in a government that couldn't do...anything, really.

And so the DisCan New Republic was utterly annihilated without a real fight by the same type of foe their Legends counterpart defeated time and time again.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top