Personally, I just feel as though the timescales aren't really believable. Jakku was what, a year after Endor? There is just no way that the rebellion conquered the Galaxy that quickly. I find the splintering and subsequent mop-up we see in the X-wing series to be much more realistic. Not to mention that the Wikipedia article implies that the Empire lost most of its fleet strength at endor, which just doesn't compute for me: the Star Wars Galaxy is a huge place, and would need a huge Navy to actually maintain control over it, deal with pirates, etc.
What I know is that Palpatine won.

He won because he kept Mothma, Ackbar, Leia et al so terrified of him - even after his defeat and death - that they gutted and lobotomized the New Republic, resulting in a government that couldn't do...anything, really.

And so the DisCan New Republic was utterly annihilated without a real fight by the same type of foe their Legends counterpart annihilated time and time again.
This. The Legends New Republic was stupid sometimes, but at least they were not crippled to the point of being incapable of governing.
I also have a real problem that the NR even could get wiped out by the destruction of a measly 6 planets, compared to the vast size of the galaxy. Or at least the idea that their fleet was destroyed along with the planets. What about (again) stuff like anti-piracy patrols?
 
What I know is that Palpatine won.

He won because he kept Mothma, Ackbar, Leia et al so terrified of him - even after his defeat and death - that they gutted and lobotomized the New Republic, resulting in a government that couldn't do...anything, really.

And so the DisCan New Republic was utterly annihilated without a real fight by the same type of foe their Legends counterpart defeated time and time again.

No, just Mothma. Leia and Ackbar were just fine, it was the one who really knew 'peace' from before that lost her shit.
 
Personally, I just feel as though the timescales aren't really believable. Jakku was what, a year after Endor? There is just no way that the rebellion conquered the Galaxy that quickly. I find the splintering and subsequent mop-up we see in the X-wing series to be much more realistic. Not to mention that the Wikipedia article implies that the Empire lost most of its fleet strength at endor, which just doesn't compute for me: the Star Wars Galaxy is a huge place, and would need a huge Navy to actually maintain control over it, deal with pirates, etc.

This. The Legends New Republic was stupid sometimes, but at least they were not crippled to the point of being incapable of governing.
I also have a real problem that the NR even could get wiped out by the destruction of a measly 6 planets, compared to the vast size of the galaxy. Or at least the idea that their fleet was destroyed along with the planets. What about (again) stuff like anti-piracy patrols?
The Disney canon has Palpatine explicitly rig the Empire to go down in flames in the case of his death, because it's his empire and fuck anyone who dares to take over after him.

The Disney New Republic is also a deliberate overreaction to the excesses of the Empire: it was weak, decentralized, and ineffectual, such that a strong central authority could never again rise.
 
What I know is that Palpatine won.

He won because he kept Mothma, Ackbar, Leia et al so terrified of him - even after his defeat and death - that they gutted and lobotomized the New Republic, resulting in a government that couldn't do...anything, really.

And so the DisCan New Republic was utterly annihilated without a real fight by the same type of foe their Legends counterpart annihilated time and time again.
One constant thread we see through the entire post-Ruusan canon is an extreme reluctance from the entrenched powers of the galaxy to trust the Republic -- and its successor -- with enough military strength to compel member worlds to actually follow Republic law to the letter.

If you read between the lines of the actual force depositions from the various conflicts the New Republic engaged in and take into account the origin of the fleet as ships essentially on loan from various governments, what you find is that the New Republic probably operated by calling up ships from various planetary and/or corporate fleets, supplemented by a comparably lean federal fleet maintained as an anti-Imperial bludgeon/emergency response force.

The New Fleet program featured in the Black Fleet Crisis would be emblematic of this, and we can also surmise that the Lusankya and other captured Imperial vessels (Rebel Dream, Liberator & Emancipator, etc) were part of this category. I think it's reasonable to put classes like the Ranger and Rejuvenator here as well.

On the other side of the coin, you have the Corellians and Bothans who provide concrete proof that member worlds had significant leeway to maintain their own militaries. I'd argue that the Ralroost being first and foremost a Bothan warship is what gave Traest Kre'fay the ability to thumb his nose at Coruscant and take an active stance against the Vong early in the war.
 
Well, so did the pre-Disney EU. There's a chart of the imperial hierarchy from the WEG Imperial Sourcebook that is so...


Look at that. Look at that!
Tbh, I always felt that Palpy didn't set this up out of spite, but instead simply never considered the possibility that he could be killed. I never felt he would be able to imagine, let alone plan for, a galaxy without him Kinda feeds into his grand delusion of UUUUNLIMITED POWAAAA.
 
This. The Legends New Republic was stupid sometimes, but at least they were not crippled to the point of being incapable of governing.
...buddy, do I have some books for you.

Seriously, the biggest difference between the NJO era New Republic (rough timeline equivalent even) and the Disney version is the Vong didn't have interstellar anti-star ICBMs, and thus had to do things the hard way.

And then there is Legacy of the Force.

Don't make me talk about LotF.

Now guys, I generally don't mind Disney talk- I actually get a kick out of picking apart stuff and seeing what works and what doesn't- but the vs crap is getting old. I mean, trying to go 'at least the EU wasn't this stupid' is honestly either going to make me roll my eyes at you or laugh my ass off. Because I've actually read some of the worst of the EU, and not the best of stuff people keep cherry picking. And Disney canon is not even close to being as aggressively stupid as Traviss or Dennings.

Is there stuff that doesn't work terribly well? Yes. But lets ditch the nostalgia shades for a moment, and acknowledge that at the very least, they didn't wreck that government via 'politicians are stupid, hurray strong military leaders'. And that Luke wasn't in a relationship with a person in the body of an ex-student who committed suicide because she couldn't upload her boyfriend into a droid, along with said droid who was killed himself for not being that person. And the First Order is a more sensible villain then the sadomasochistic religious lunatics who consider the scientific process heresy.

Note none of this was Traviss or Dennings.

Seriously guys- on the whole, I will take Disney canon as more sensible then fucking Dalaa being elected President of the New Republic on an anti-jedi platform. Trying to defend the EU on grounds of 'its less stupid' are horrifically misguided, motivated by nostalgia, and reveal more ignorance of how bad the EU got then anything. And you know, is why a lot of Star Wars fans who don't care for the EU basically roll their eyes at us that do- they have a point, and the fact we've found stuff to love doesn't mean we didn't have to shift through a lot of shit to get it.

So basically, please knock the shitting on Disney canon off- you do not have the high ground here.
 
As a little addendum, something pretty much everyone involved in ye olde DisnEU vs debate should be aware of: something that's more or less shit than some other thing... doesn't change both of them being shit - and vice versa.
 
Tbh, I always felt that Palpy didn't set this up out of spite, but instead simply never considered the possibility that he could be killed. I never felt he would be able to imagine, let alone plan for, a galaxy without him Kinda feeds into his grand delusion of UUUUNLIMITED POWAAAA.
Well... could be both? "I'm gonna live forever and be top dog! But just in case I die-which wouldn't be my fault, but the fault of my idiot underlings-I'll set things up so when I die, it all falls apart!

"Now where's that puppy I like kicking?"
 
Well... could be both? "I'm gonna live forever and be top dog! But just in case I die-which wouldn't be my fault, but the fault of my idiot underlings-I'll set things up so when I die, it all falls apart!

"Now where's that puppy I like kicking?"
[Shrugs] I just don't think it'd ever occur to him that it was a physical actual possibility. Overthrown, sure, in which case he'd obviously have plans in place, but I don't think he wuld have ever fathomed the possibility of him actually dying.
 
[Shrugs] I just don't think it'd ever occur to him that it was a physical actual possibility. Overthrown, sure, in which case he'd obviously have plans in place, but I don't think he wuld have ever fathomed the possibility of him actually dying.
I think he could, but it would be in a manner befitting of the Dark Lord of the Sith. Like, full Jedi strike team with Yoda and Windu and Obi-wan. Or Vader coming into the fullness of his powers and succeeding him.

His ego wouldn't accept a lesser death, but a great one... I can see him buying into the immortality of that.

Not how he actually went though. Never sucker punched by his apprentice in a suicidal act to save his son. That's just so... pedestrian.
 
I think he could, but it would be in a manner befitting of the Dark Lord of the Sith. Like, full Jedi strike team with Yoda and Windu and Obi-wan. Or Vader coming into the fullness of his powers and succeeding him.

His ego wouldn't accept a lesser death, but a great one... I can see him buying into the immortality of that.

Not how he actually went though. Never sucker punched by his apprentice in a suicidal act to save his son. That's just so... pedestrian.

He fell to death! That's not even unique way to go out for a villain, much less one of his scale. He must have been piiiiiiiissed on the way down.
 
To be entirely fair, I kind of think it was his own fault for not hiring better contractors. "So, you want anything done about this giant bottomless pit that leads into the reactor core?" "No, I need to throw people down it." "But I could put in a grate for when you don't need to do that. It would be on a hinge and everything, no trouble about tripping down the pit, and still let you throw people down bottomless pits!"
 
"We have never needed handrails for anything on Coruscant and that has far more traffic than my newest throne room so we don't need them here!"
 
To be entirely fair, I kind of think it was his own fault for not hiring better contractors. "So, you want anything done about this giant bottomless pit that leads into the reactor core?" "No, I need to throw people down it." "But I could put in a grate for when you don't need to do that. It would be on a hinge and everything, no trouble about tripping down the pit, and still let you throw people down bottomless pits!"

The Galactic Empire doesn't use contractors! Only the finest artisanal slave labor constructed that throne room!

(You can tell by the fact pretty much everything is unsafe or breaks.)
 
[Shrugs] I just don't think it'd ever occur to him that it was a physical actual possibility. Overthrown, sure, in which case he'd obviously have plans in place, but I don't think he wuld have ever fathomed the possibility of him actually dying.

Did our friend Sheev happen to have a mechanism for immortality? I know he had his clones, but they didn't last very long. Did he have a means of prolonging his original body's lifespan?
 
...buddy, do I have some books for you.

Seriously, the biggest difference between the NJO era New Republic (rough timeline equivalent even) and the Disney version is the Vong didn't have interstellar anti-star ICBMs, and thus had to do things the hard way.

And then there is Legacy of the Force.

Don't make me talk about LotF.

Now guys, I generally don't mind Disney talk- I actually get a kick out of picking apart stuff and seeing what works and what doesn't- but the vs crap is getting old. I mean, trying to go 'at least the EU wasn't this stupid' is honestly either going to make me roll my eyes at you or laugh my ass off. Because I've actually read some of the worst of the EU, and not the best of stuff people keep cherry picking. And Disney canon is not even close to being as aggressively stupid as Traviss or Dennings.

Is there stuff that doesn't work terribly well? Yes. But lets ditch the nostalgia shades for a moment, and acknowledge that at the very least, they didn't wreck that government via 'politicians are stupid, hurray strong military leaders'. And that Luke wasn't in a relationship with a person in the body of an ex-student who committed suicide because she couldn't upload her boyfriend into a droid, along with said droid who was killed himself for not being that person. And the First Order is a more sensible villain then the sadomasochistic religious lunatics who consider the scientific process heresy.

Note none of this was Traviss or Dennings.

Seriously guys- on the whole, I will take Disney canon as more sensible then fucking Dalaa being elected President of the New Republic on an anti-jedi platform. Trying to defend the EU on grounds of 'its less stupid' are horrifically misguided, motivated by nostalgia, and reveal more ignorance of how bad the EU got then anything. And you know, is why a lot of Star Wars fans who don't care for the EU basically roll their eyes at us that do- they have a point, and the fact we've found stuff to love doesn't mean we didn't have to shift through a lot of shit to get it.

So basically, please knock the shitting on Disney canon off- you do not have the high ground here.
Daala's appointment is looking a lot less suspension of disbelief straining than it used to- and was widely agreed on in universe to basically be a bizarre fluke that everyone regretted and that had predicable consequences.

Now, Luke's character derailment by the end of Legends, that I won't argue was one terrible decision after another post NJO...
 
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Did our friend Sheev happen to have a mechanism for immortality? I know he had his clones, but they didn't last very long. Did he have a means of prolonging his original body's lifespan?
I believe that the end of Dark Empire II or Empire's End showed that the Clones were actually being purposefully ruined by someone, which was then explained in.... Crimson Empire, I believe, the sequel to the Dark Empire trilogy.
 
Did our friend Sheev happen to have a mechanism for immortality? I know he had his clones, but they didn't last very long. Did he have a means of prolonging his original body's lifespan?
Given who his master was and all his research into the Force, it's safe to assume he was confident that finding a way to extend his life through it was only a matter of time. Palpy is not a meek man in that regard.
 
I find the sadness about the 'old' EU now called Legends EU understandable in some respect.

Some dislike the new EU because it doesn't suit their tastes or is new.


It doesn't take away the old Legends EU from before, and those works are still there.

But old Legends EU isn't made as much.

Some are still made, but not as much.

Even when old EU was 'secondary canon' to George Lucas, he at least allowed more to be made at a rapid pace (sometimes without quality control).
So even if it wasn't 'canon', the result was more would get made.
Even if it didn't get incorporated into the films or main media as much.

Disney EU is also in a different continuity, which those that were invested into the old setting and characters dislike.
 
I believe that the end of Dark Empire II or Empire's End showed that the Clones were actually being purposefully ruined by someone, which was then explained in.... Crimson Empire, I believe, the sequel to the Dark Empire trilogy.
It was Carnor Jax who sabotaged the clones (bribed the clonemaster, iirc) at the behest of his master, Lumiya. He used this opportunity to assert his own claim to the Empire, where he almost allied with Nom Anor before meeting his unfortunate end by way of Kir Kanos, the Imperial Kyle Katarn.

Interestingly, the transition of power from Emperor* Carnor Jax the Imperial Interim Ruling Council on Ord Cantrell afterward is where, imo, you begin to see the first real distinction between 'good' and 'evil' Imperials in the upper echelons. The IRC even had non-human members (albeit distinctly of the 'evil Imperial' strain), something that even Pellaeon at his most mellow and sagacious couldn't quite manage.**

Xandel Carivus, who came to lead it, pulled hard in the other direction and had the non-humans executed before declaring himself Emperor... whereupon Baron Ragez D'Asta, a member emeritus of the original (non-Interim) Ruling Council and a corporate magnate rich enough to own a personal military, tag-teamed with Kir Kanos to end his mockery of a reign before it got out of hand.

D'Asta then did something very significant: he signed a truce with the New Republic and let the true Empire die. This event marks the end of Imperial legitimacy*** and the start of what would come to be known as the Imperial Remnant, though no cohesive government of any sort would exist for another year until Daala's masterful feat of diplomacy at Tsoss Beacon.

...because nothing quite says "legitimacy" like Tsoss Beacon, amirite?


* Though Carnor Jax clearly saw himself as the new Emperor, it's unclear if he actually got around to 'talking the talk' in addition to 'walking the walk.'

** I don't mean to write a hagiography of Pellaeon here, but it's clear that he found new perspective in his post-Thrawn career (perhaps helped just as much by witnessing firsthand the failure of so many other True Believers and ruthless successors) and genuinely became an advocate for and implementer of good governance. That said, his Remnant did remain very humanocentrist -- with the possible exception of Chiss brought in from the Empire of the Hand -- and it's not a good look. Still, to be fair, the worlds held by the Remnant were largely inhabited by humans, with a mere handful of exceptions, and those that were within their borders were treated well. For instance, Pellaeon brought an end to slavery of the Yaga and brought them into the fold as willing partners.

*** The true Imperial lineage goes like this: OG Palpatine → Sate Pestage → Paltr Carvin → [Isard or Trioculus or Shadowspawn or Dangor] → Thrawn → Asshole Palpatine → Carnor Jax → Burr Nolyds and the IRC → Xandel Carivus → extict after the Truce of Orinda.
 
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