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Star Wars EU Retrospect

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The Englanderish said:
Tbh, I always felt that Palpy didn't set this up out of spite, but instead simply never considered the possibility that he could be killed. I never felt he would be able to imagine, let alone plan for, a galaxy without him Kinda feeds into his grand delusion of UUUUNLIMITED POWAAAA.
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RK_Striker_JK_5 said:
Well, so did the pre-Disney EU. There's a chart of the imperial hierarchy from the WEG Imperial Sourcebook that is so...


Look at that. Look at that!
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Go take a look at some of the organizational charts that the Nazi's had. They were at least this bad, if not worse. And their circumstances were much worse: the Empire had no real military peers, but the Nazi's were fighting a war against multiple peers or superiors. So one could really argue that the Empire having bad organization is simply staying true to one of their inspirations.
 
75% Certain said:
D'Asta then did something very significant: he signed a truce with the New Republic and let the true Empire die.
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Wait, so why was what Pellaeon decided to do at the beginning of The Hand of Thrawn such a big deal?

BTW; speaking of, I have a vague recollection of their being ads for it on TV, was this a thing that actually happened or is my memory playing tricks on me?
 
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I guess I do tend to have a rosy view of the old EU, since I didn't actually read a lot of the stuff people have complained about. I have never read a Karen Travis's novel, missed the early NJO after Vector Prime, and quit in disgust after the first Killik book.

Still prefer the EU empire breakup, but I acknowledge that the NR was a shitshow a lot of the time.
 
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75% Certain's Brief Summary of post-Endor Empire in the EU
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    • krinsbez said:
    Wait, so what was what Pellaeon decided to do at the beginning of The Hand of Thrawn such a big deal?

    BTW; speaking of, I have a vague recollection of their being ads for it on TV, was this a thing that actually happened or is my memory playing tricks on me?
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    (Fuck it, I'm gonna write a huge thing on the Empire)


    To keep things straight, it's important to remember that the "Imperials" in the EU aren't one faction, but a series of splinter organizations usually (but not always) created by a Warlord of some type.
    The first and most audacious of them struck out the moment word spread that the Emperor was toast, but the real loss of control happened when Palpatine's designated successor, Sate Pestage, bolted for the fledgling New Republic in an apparent attempt to defect.

    This was in fact the result of machinations from the Director of Imperial Intelligence, Ysanne Isard, but she was hardly the only one ready to pounce. The result of this chaos was that Imperial authority became strained to the breaking point and beyond, to the degree that it must have seemed like the Empire was unravelling altogether in a mad, every-man-for-himself, altogether embarrassing failure cascade.

    It's easy to blame Isard's brief reign as the death knell for the Imperial dream, but I'd argue instead that she had seen the writing on the wall. The New Republic, eschewing its age-old doctrine of never fighting a pitched battle, had gone on the warpath and had already 'liberated' dozens of Core worlds; they were closing in on Coruscant, and the mighty Galactic Empire could only spare a mere handful of ships to mount a defense!

    It's hardly a blunder on Isard's part to surrender a plague-ridden world as a poison pill and set herself up as the Galaxy's only supplier of bacta instead! (Though, as we know, she miscalculated badly and was laid low by the privateering efforts of maybe fifty people. Oops!)

    The other various claimants did little better, and the balance of Imperial authority seemed to rest with the major Warlords like Krennel, Drommel, and Kaine, who had by this point amassed considerable fleets and had built domains with something resembling a functional government. (Kaine's Pentastar Alignment, in fact, was so functional that it would eventually form the core of the Imperial Remnant.)

    Enter Thrawn. This random Grand Admiral showed up out of nowhere with a small group of Star Destroyers, which under ordinary circumstances wouldn't mean anything at all, but Ars Dangor, Ragez D'Asta, and the Ruling Council saw him as an opportunity. Dangor was a survivor from Palpatine's own service and knew the capabilities of Thrawn; by their proclamation, he became the Supreme Commander of the Empire.

    The various Warlords were generally not of the True Believer type, but that sentiment was common among the captains and crews in their service. News of Thrawn spread like wildfire and, though they were loathe to subordinate themselves to anyone, much less a Chiss, the alternative began to look even worse; Kaine and Krennel especially felt that the risk of coups against them was high, and formed a makeshift confederacy with several other Warlords under Thrawn's aegis.

    What they did not give him was any actual support. :V

    What Thrawn did against the New Republic, he did using only the paltry forces available to him from the Empire itself. They may have assisted financially, but the legend that Thrawn's brief and brilliant ascent created was to the glory of the Empire alone. It kept the dream alive, and revealed the various Warlord domains as the craven and hollow things that they were.

    The confederacy technically died with Rukh's daggerthrust, but the example Thrawn had set left the rank-and-file of the fractured Imperial remnants eager to operate again under a single banner. Regardless of their own personal preferences, the plethora of Warlords and bureaucratic factions unified and began a campaign against the New Republic so swift and elegant that, if I'm being honest, puts Thrawn's own to same. In mere weeks, the Imperials had breached the Core and retaken dozens of vital systems. The New Republic, paralyzed by the blitzkrieg, could only watch in astonishment as Corsucant fell to the invading forces...

    ...whereupon the Imperial factions, virtually in unison, all betrayed each other simultaneously. (I swear I'm not making this up. Dark Empire was quite a time.) The 'surface' became an open warzone as Imperial walkers duked it out with strafing TIEs and repulsortanks, and fuck if I know how they managed to tell friendlies apart. It must have been such a goddamn clusterfuck.

    It wasn't just confined to Coruscant, either; in the skies above dozens of worlds, what remained of the Imperial War Machine turned on itself in a truly surreal cacophony of violence. An Executor, a Vengeance, two Mandator III's and a Torpedo Sphere were all destroyed in what came to be known as the Imperial Mutiny (and we can only assume that a truly stunning number of smaller ships were crippled or destroyed as well).

    Palpatine was already back by this point, of course, but he just sat on Byss with some popcorn. For months. "Culling the weak," he called it. Eventually he intervened, with the soldiers of the Empire returning to his service in droves. After the shit they'd just been through, you can't really blame them. Some Warlords stayed, but many fled.

    Even at this early point, Carnor Jax and Sarcev Quest were already conspiring with the Emperor's (nameless) personal physician to sabotage his clones, sealing his eventual doom. Palpatine, for all the Force Storms he could summon, was so enraptured by his own invincibility and triumph over Luke Skywalker that he probably didn't even think to check.

    The full events of Dark Empire are too painful/annoying/dumb/convoluted to summarize, but I'm sure you know the broad strokes.

    Shit happens, R2-D2 kills 20 billion civilians, and when everything is said and done the Empire proper is a ragged mess ruled by wannabe Sith Lord Carnor Jax (with Lumiya behind the curtain), and to the extent that it's a threat to the New Republic, that's mostly because the New Republic is pathetic. Jax would quickly perish at the hands of LOYAL AVENGER KIR KANOS [distant thunderclap] for his betrayal, setting off the chain of dominoes that would lead to the establishment and momentary rule of the Interim Imperial Ruling Council on Ord Cantrell and eventually Ragez D'Asta's coup against "Emperor" Xandel Carivus on Orinda (which he'd since relocated the capital to).

    Meanwhile, the bulk of the remaining Imperial war material had made its way back to the various Warlords (especially those in the Deep Core there to benefit from Palpatine's brief flurry of Empire-building) and they proceeded to do... basically nothing with it at all, aside from pressing the same set of petty squabbles that had led to the Imperial Mutiny. Pellaeon, Thrawn's second and, in some ways, his protege, spent this period slumming in warlord service. This will be important later.

    The timeline after Orinda that I'd recalled before was slightly off. While nobody actually ruled the Empire after Carivus' death, the truce wouldn't come until two years later. In the interim, it apparently sauntered on in a narcolepic lurch with no official leader. (The Council of Moffs seems to have formed under D'Asta at about this time; these would have been the deputies of Ardus Kaine in the Pentastar Alignment, who died serving the Emperor.) Though, again, no truce was in effect, D'Asta seems to have had no interest in actively prosecuting the war, and left the New Republic unmolested. Some Imperial officers took issue with this approach and formed a rather conspiratorial splinter called the Restored Empire under Ennix Devian.

    Daala broke out of the Maw in 12 ABY, a year after Orinda, and saw that shit was fucked. Say what you will about her tactics, she had vision and initiative that her fellow Warlords clearly lacked. Using Pellaeon as a trusted intermediary, she gathered the 13 most powerful of those in the Deep Core to a neutral site in the middle of fucking nowhere, the now-infamous Tsoss Beacon, and locked everyone in a room until they could sort out their issues and decide on a plan of attack against the New Republic.

    Naturally, they started a fistfight instead.

    Daala decided to calm everyone with some gas. Some nerve gas. And, how strange, it seemed that only Daala and Pellaeon had thought to bring their gas masks along!

    Now that Daala had a Gilad Pellaeon as her right-hand man, a massive armada of Star Destroyers at her disposal, and the stealth-coated Executor Night Hammer for a flagship, she immediately picked up where Palpatine had left off and launched a series of lighting attacks against the New Republic, taking them by surprise and severing the strategic Corellian ahaha who the fuck am I kidding Daala fucked off for Yavin 4 with a handful of Star Destroyers and got her ass handed to her by space magic and Kyp Durron.

    The last escape pod Pellaeon recovered from the fiasco was Daala's own, and when she climbed out she said something like 'I must go now, but if you ever need me, just send... THE DAALA SIGNAL' and then fucked off back into space.

    And she was never seen again. Right? Right??

    Jokes aside, Daala made a smart decision by recognizing her own inadequacy and realizing that Pellaeon already had the right resume and skill set for the job. Ragez D'Asta agreed, and promptly gave Pellaeon the ex-Pentastar Executor Reaper as a replacement for the one Daala had just wasted, and with the backing of the Council of Moffs, declared Pellaeon the Supreme Commander. Various remaining Imperial factions rallied to him more-or-less voluntarily after Pellaeon offered them his protection in exchange.

    Pellaeon came to realize something at this point: even though he was technically just the military leader of this amalgamated mishmash of Imperial factions, everybody fucking adored him. Thanks to his decency as a person and his close association with Thrawn's campaign (probably the last 'heroic' moment of the Empire that hadn't been tainted), he could get away with just about anything.

    So, perhaps experimentally, he acted like he could give orders and told the Council of Moffs to end slavery. Since Pellaeon was effectively untouchable (and, perhaps, some or all of them agreed), they did just that. Pellaeon would continue to use his clout to push for pro-alien reforms internally while fighting against the New Republic in a series of bloody engagements along their mutual border.

    Baron D'Asta was getting fed up with what he viewed as a waste of resources, and pushed Pellaeon to agree to negotiate peace with the New Republic. They did sign a truce over Orinda, but a more lasting agreement was frustrated by the interference of the Restored Empire faction, who attempted to turn everyone against everyone else. They were thwarted and the relationship had warmed somewhat, but peace remained out of reach.

    The next few months were frustrating. Admiral Teren Rogriss, Pellaeon's close ally and another one of the 'good' Imperials, chose to defect to the New Republic rather than deliver Adumar to the Empire, so Pellaeon attacked Adumar from orbit in retaliation.

    (It's important to note here that we know this was a very light attack. The Reaper could have glassed Adumar from orbit easily, yet later on we see Adumar again and it's doing fine. So, while this is ugly, it's not straight-up genocide. It might not have even had a high body count.)

    Worse, this is right about where the New Republic realized that Q-Varx, the Mon Calamari Minister of State for the New Republic, was actually a spy. Just so you understand the significance of this, Q-Varx was literally the second highest-ranking member of the New Republic government and would have been the replacement Chief of State had Leia Organa Solo been killed or incapacitated. And he was a spy. Not even, like, a good spy! He might have been feeding info to Pellaeon, but he was also working for Seti fucking Ashgad. Who is literally an evil plague bug.

    Like, if people are ever wondering why Leia was a horrible Chief of State, this right here is Exhibit A. It's like finding out that Mike Pence is in fact a covert asset of Russia and Daesh!

    Anyway, this is where everything went wrong. Pellaeon's forces were held up at Adumar while the Q-Varx-free New Republic pivoted to strike elsewhere, biting into the Remnant's territory. He was able to stop them at Celenon, but had to sacrifice the Reaper to do so.

    For the next four years, Pellaeon skirmished repeatedly with the New Republic and managed to avoid catastrophic defeat, but the tide was against him. (Helpfully, the New Republic was distracted for a time by the Empire Reborn, who straddled the line between Imperial splinter faction and freak-o cult. These are the guys who had Waru.) In 17 ABY the Moffs became antsy and feared that the New Republic was secretly gearing up to attack the Remnant on the heels of the Black Fleet Crisis. The meeting went something like this:

    MOFFS: "I have an idea! Let's call Daala"
    PELLAEON: "I have a better idea! How about we don't. fucking. call. Daala."
    MOFFS: "Too late lol"
    PELLAEON: ". . ."

    In a shocking twist, Daala's attack from the Deep Core amounted to nothing and the Remnant got dumpstered.

    Two years later, it would be Pellaeon pushing the Moffs for peace with the New Republic, facing up to strategic inevitability. Though a Gonzo hail-mary plan to fake the return of Thrawn almost succeeded in derailing the peace process, he had finally secured the future of the Imperial Remnant. Many of the 'evil Imperial' types bailed to form the Second Imperium, which was basically a fringe terrorist group at this point.

    Why the fuck did I think that writing this pointless diatribe on a phone was a good idea :facepalm:
     
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    • Thematically it makes a lot of sense that the Empire was a trainwreck of incompetence and betrayal. OTOH I can't help but think that a better story could be told if the bad guys had the bare minimum of competence.
     
    Cosar said:
    Go take a look at some of the organizational charts that the Nazi's had. They were at least this bad, if not worse. And their circumstances were much worse: the Empire had no real military peers, but the Nazi's were fighting a war against multiple peers or superiors. So one could really argue that the Empire having bad organization is simply staying true to one of their inspirations.
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    Observe: The human brain on Nazism
     
    Turns out Doctor Gast is alive. She wakes up in a bacta tank, with Narawa Ven awaiting her.

    "Doctor Gast," he said, "I have an offer for you. One half a million credits. Amnesty for all crimes to which you provide confession and full details. And a new identity-quite asy to manage, as you are already officially dead; only a couple of medics and three officers know you're still alive. But this offer is only valid if you can tell us, among other things, the biological signs and markers that indicate when someone has been subjected to Zsinj's brainwashing techniques."

    Gast let a slow smile spread across her features. "My, you have been doing your research."
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    Wedge holds a meeting. He tells everyone about the two attempts stopped that we read about earlier. Face asks if that means the order about Twi'leks has been rescinded. Officially, no. Unofficially, yes. go, Wedge! Dia wants to fly.

    Wedge outlines their schedule. The Falsehood will be showing up in places. In others, they'll be directly attacking Zsinj's territory. Horn points out that if Lara's gone to Zsinj, the Falsehood plan is probably blown wide open.

    "No," Horn said. "She may have believed what she was saying. But after talking with some of the Wraiths about her behavior, reviewing her conduct before Kidriff Five, I tend to think she's a situational conformist with a few bolts loose in her skull. If she ends up in Zsinj's hands, she'll probably end up being a loyal officer of Zsinj's."
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    I don't think his analysis is wrong, to be honest. I nknow thanks to having read this book several times over the past twenty years he is, but I can't fault his thinking or line of reasoning.

    Wedge says he thinks the plan is secure, but he'll accept any requests of transfer he gets. Good on him, too. He also says they got the blood marker info. And everyone in the task force is getting tested.

    We will not face the tragedy of tal'dira and Nuro Tualin a second time."
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    Yay! :)

    Wedge continues the meeting, privately noting that none of their targets imperial-held worlds.

    General Solo and Admiral Rogriss, senior officers of two enemy governments making agreements that would be easy to interpret as treasonous... Wedge has to shake his head over that. It took a menace like Zsinj to make temporary allies of two men who would otherwise be bitter opponents.
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    There. We can discuss Solo Command instead of Disney vs. EU. :p Also, how much do you think I'd pay for a full line of Rogue/Wraith action figures? :p JJK/YJK?

    And in all semi-seriousness, starting Monday and going through until at least Friday, I'll post something on the book every day. I want/need to get to Isard's revenge, Starfighters of Admuar...

    And Mercy Kill. Good god, Mercy Kill. A post-YJK/pre-Legacy-comics Star Wars novel. That should be FUN! :D
     
    And as another side thing to tie people over until my next roundup (it's coming soon; I swear) what's everyone's 5 most favourite EU entries (anything, book, game, tv episode, whatever) - and also most disliked?
     
    Top five:

    Dark Rendezvous
    Shatterpoint
    KOTOR 2
    RotS Novelization
    The Thrawn Trilogy
    2d Clone Wars (so it's six, take it up woth 2d grievous)

    Least favorite

    Karen Traviss
    REVAN NOVEL WHICH I HAVE NOT AND WILL NEVER READ
    Legacy of the Force
    Maul being alive (includes Ventress being retconned)- soooo ome Clone Wars episode?
    Ventress dying rather than getting to ride off into the sunset (Clone Wars?)
    Also TV Grievous being incompetent (seriously I even liked 3d clone wars, but a lot of it was pretty bad or aggravating)

    If that counts under the same then I'll throw out never getting a proper Battlefront 3. And what's worse EA/Disney trying to erase the old battlefronts
     
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    The Englanderish said:
    And as another side thing to tie people over until my next roundup (it's coming soon; I swear) what's everyone's 5 most favourite EU entries (anything, book, game, tv episode, whatever) - and also most disliked?
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    Top 5:

    Author
    Matthew Stover (Traitor > RotS > Shatterpoint > Mindor)

    Series
    X-Wing novels (They're all great, but special honors to Starfighters of Adumar)

    Stand-Alone Novel
    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    Comic
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika (TotJ: Redemption gets honorable mention here)

    Video Game
    Episode I: Racer


    Bottom five are gonna be a bit more messy, so I don't think I'll categorize them. I'll limit them to things I've actually read/played/seen.
    • Jedi Trial
    • Dark Nest trilogy
    • Darth Bane: Rule of Two
    • Traviss' Legacy of the Force books
    • Denning's Legacy of the Force books
    (A lot of horrible novels from the Bantam era escape this list because I didn't personally suffer through their entirety.)
     
    Yeah, Shatterpoint was one of my all-time favorites too. I especially liked how we get to see mace lose. He uses all his strength, all his tricks, and it isn't enough.
     
    The Englanderish said:
    And as another side thing to tie people over until my next roundup (it's coming soon; I swear) what's everyone's 5 most favourite EU entries (anything, book, game, tv episode, whatever) - and also most disliked?
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    Dark Force Rising, Wraith Squadron, The Last Command, TIE Fighter, Starfighters of Adumar. (Honorable mentions to Wedge's Gamble, Allegiance, and X-Wing Alliance, which all got revised off the list.)

    Crystal Star, Black Fleet Crisis 1, Galactic Battlegrounds, The New Rebellion, and Darksaber. (dishonorable mentions for those revised off the list: NJO: Dark Tide 2 mainly because it's where I punched out of the EU rather than being particularly annoyed by it, KJA's Jedi Academy books were exchanged for Darksaber, Empire At War: Forces of Corruption saved by the truly great mods for it, and Children of the Jedi.)
     
    I, Jedi is number one. I love the book to pieces.

    Traitor is number 2.

    KotOR 2 is number 3.

    Stackpole's first 4 XWing novels I'll count together as 4 and 5.


    My least favorite? The one with Waru, the Black Fleet Crisis, Darksaber, and.... IDK another. LotF just was meh, but not atrocious in any one book, and FotJ at least salvaged some of the meta plot from LotF. I liked Dark Empire and Dark Tide, and didn't hate the Jedi Academy trilogy or Children of the Jedi. So no clue on my other least favorite.
     
    The Englanderish said:
    And as another side thing to tie people over until my next roundup (it's coming soon; I swear) what's everyone's 5 most favourite EU entries (anything, book, game, tv episode, whatever) - and also most disliked?
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    I'll be honest, I haven't read any Star Wars EU material since 2003. But my favorite back then was probably I, Jedi. I'd probably cringe a bit at it now. And my least favorite would be the one where Han Solo kidnapped Leia and she didn't straight up murder him for it. The Courtship of Princess Leia, I believe.
     
    The Courtship of Princess Leia was bad, but it was hilariously bad, and it gave us Dathomir and (indirectly) Wraith Squadron, so I'm willing to overlook its sins in a "so bad it's kind of actually good" manner.
     
    I like Survivor's Quest. It had ship wrecks, mystery, the Unknown Regions, Luke and Mara going on an adventure together. Kind of like a taste of what we would have gotten if not for the Vong war.
     
    Southshore said:
    I like Survivor's Quest. It had ship wrecks, mystery, the Unknown Regions, Luke and Mara going on an adventure together. Kind of like a taste of what we would have gotten if not for the Vong war.
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    More Star Wars style pulp adventures would have been amazing. I mean, there has to be an Indiana Jones Jedi Archaeologist out there somewhere (wasn't Jeric off in the Unknown regions?)

    Exploration type voyages are, in general, way too underused for fantasy/soap fiction, everything has to be either a doomsday device, apocalyptic threat, or political drama. I blame Tolkien.
     
    My five favorite works:

    1. The Revenge of the SIth novelization. I don't know that this necessarily the best work in the EU, but it is very good, and it was the story that made me appreciate what the prequels were trying to do, and what they could have been. It really made me understand the extent of the tragedy inherent in the fall of the Republic and the Jedi, and on a more personal level, for Anakin's fall as well.
    2. KOTOR 2. Despite its (many) flaws, I love this game more than just about anything else I've ever played. It's musings on the costs of war, the nature of the Force, and the role of the Jedi have stuck with me for a long time, and informed a lot of how I view the franchise.
    3. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. This one has some absolutely fantastic character work, for Yoda and Dooku in particular. It also has the best refutation of the "Jedi are emotionless" trend out of any Star Wars story I've read.
    4. Shatterpoint. Along with KOTOR 2, this is probably the most direct engagement with the horrors of war in the setting, and tied into that is an absolutely fantastic exploration of what the dark side is and what it does to you.
    5. The Han Solo trilogy. While I love the aesthetics and themes of the Jedi, every once in a while it's nice to read something focused on the non-mystical parts of the setting, and this is probably my favorite of those stories. It's also a pretty good exploration of Han's character, and just generally a fun read.

    A least favorite list is a bit tougher. Thanks to word of mouth I've managed to avoid most of the stuff that catches a lot of hate, so most of the things I'm actually familiar with are just mediocre rather than awful. There's only one work that stands out to me as particularly deserving of scorn: the Revan novel. I picked it up after playing the Old Republic MMO and getting curious about the events tying it into the original KOTOR games. Boy, was that a mistake. Between trampling over almost everything I liked about KOTOR 2, trying to absolve Revan of any responsibility for his actions by retroactively making his fall the result of mind control, and the Sith Emperor's... everything, it was just a thoroughly unpleasant experience. The fact that this was a setup for the utterly stupid genocide robots plot in the MMO makes it even worse.
     
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