Something was bugging me so I went back in-game to check; I'm not sure if Baughn has finished chapter 11 yet and this also isn't terribly relevant to the vote so I've spoilered this but:
in Chapter 11 in the Sea of Quanta Seele did at the very least meet a reflection of Himeko:

Of course it's unclear how long Seele spent in the fake St. Freya Academy or if she even interacted with the fake-Himeko so it's quite possible that she doesn't remember her at all but this is indeed a thing that happened.
 
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How long is the vote open for? I think I'd like to sleep on this.
I'll start with this:

The vote will stay open for as long as it needs to. This is probably the most important vote in the quest so far, and I don't want to rush you.

No pressure.

Again, the list of purple-haired girls in Honkai is to the best of my knowledge a list of one.

On the other hand, I don't think it's that hard to explain this.

Like, the distinction between "Sirin" and "Kiana" is a functional and real one, but they are continuous, I guess? It's not a sharp divide, it's a gradient.
Maybe a little more of a gradient than usual. Like--

There's Sirin, the girl who just wanted another chance at life. She is Kiana, for all intents and purposes, but she suppressed her trauma so hard that she couldn't even remember she'd ever been anyone else. Not even the good memories, ...but she doesn't have any good memories that aren't flawed, does she?

And then there's Sirin, the Void Herrscherin. Not the girl who was lashing out at the world, but that part of the girl which still wants to. The parts of Kiana that she suppresses so hard they might as well be a separate person. Only, they're not quite. The pieces still coexist in the same brain, even if she'd rather they didn't. The part of Kiana that still goes by "Sirin".

The reason there can be such a divide in the first place is that, among the things your brain can do, part of it can suppress other parts. Normally that's meant for, like, suppressing your desire for potato chips while you're cooking dinner -- and normally that's not this absolute a locking away.

Locking away trauma in this manner is, in itself, a reasonable solution. Not exactly a permanent one, especially not if your evil side also happens to be better at using your Herrscher powers because that's the trauma, but it can at least keep you functional. Things get less fortunate when it's mutual.

But, um.

...for what it's worth, you didn't make a mistake by voting to release Ai-chan's past self. I was about 90% certain you would, and I'd already thought through the consequences. Something like half the story wouldn't work if you hadn't, so I was pushing fairly hard.

Right now, Kiana isn't able to keep Sirin's memories and thoughts away, and Sirin isn't able to keep Kiana's away. They're hardly separate people anymore, but that doesn't mean she won't tear herself apart.

So the dead/unconscious torture victim is not recognizably Kiana-looking - she's presumably a memory, image, or identity-concept that leans more towards Sirin.
Aye. The only thing I wish to point out is, her state is clearly not Kiana's doing. Not except in the broad sense that everything here is Kiana's doing.

And then in the aftermath - after hurting all of her friends, after Himeko, after the Honkai eruption that she blames herself for - Shicksal never stopped chasing her. And it seems very, very unlikely that they intend to do anything other than start the torture again if they catch her.
And Shicksal might be gone, but Otto is right here.

Something was bugging me so I went back in-game to check; I'm not sure if Baughn has finished chapter 11 yet and this also isn't terribly relevant to the vote so I've spoiled this but:
I'm on chapter 13. :)

I'd forgotten that particular scene. Well, a lot happened, but I suppose this means Seele could potentially recognize Himeko. I still don't think it's likely to happen automatically, from this current perspective.
 
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Yeah, I stand by my last post more than before now.

Just... in this moment, protect them (and trigger their PTSD through it :V), but kinda need to suplex her guilt over other people's choices with her own morals. We'll probably end up fighting the 2nd to some mixed degree as breaks down over someone (in her view) giving their life to protect her again, but that's also our chance to do the above even if it hurts her a bit.

Risky? Yes. But nothing isn't risky right now and if we win we win.
 
...right, okay. I've had some time to think, and -

Honestly my first impulse is to run and go get help from one of the systems on this site, but I don't really know anyone in &era that well, and it might be kind of rude to go "hey do you all mind reading 50 thousand words of quest, plus another some thousands more words of commentary and informational stuff for context, so that I can get an expert opinion?"

...other hand I guess it can't hurt to ask, so

@&era System , we seem to have stumbled onto strong plural themes here, and while I've tried my best to be respectful and informative, I'm a singlet and kind of out of my depth; so if you all have the time and inclination, I would greatly appreciate having actual plural people contribute to the discussion.

But anyway

WTF Is: Plurality?
It's becoming increasingly obvious that Sirin, as a person, is not the same person as Kiana despite running on the same hardware.

This is ... not actually terribly uncommon? Something like 1-2% of the population is in some way plural - that is, a system of multiple people who happen to coexist in the same brain. There's a thread by SV's plural community if you're interested in more detail and primary sources: Plural and Dissociative Identities Community Thread

The short version: "Sirin is an actual person, treat her like one, gosh it's not that hard"

The longer, Thelxiope-attempts-to-talk-about-a-subject-she-doesn't-acutally-know-that-well version:
  • While I want to stress that plurality happens for a lot of reasons - deliberate action, or just ... because (some brains appear to just be wired for hosting multiple people), or plenty of other benign causes - yes, sometimes, plurality is a response to trauma
    • This seems to be one of those cases? If you want to listen to a singlet laywoman with no actual plural experience or mental health credentials make an uninformed diagnosis, it seems like the Kiana-Sirin system prooobably have a dissociative disorder, on top of their obvious heaps and heaps of trauma.

      Kiana is fronting, is the one who's at the surface, 'piloting' their shared body, so to speak; and when she encounters post-traumatic triggers, she sometimes dissociates. Stops being present, detaches from her experience for a moment. That's ... a pretty normal response to trauma, to be honest?

      But Sirin is there, observing - further away from the front, down at a deeper layer of consciousness - and she is still aware, still present, even when Kiana has checked out momentarily.

      I think - and please take this with a gigantic pinch of salt - that they might have split, might have started being different people, during Kiana's childhood. That Kiana kept pushing the memories and feelings and traumas of her first life away, kept trying to shove them down beneath her consciousness; and, well, Sirin gradually took on the role of holding all of that pain and anger for Kiana.
  • Kiana and Sirin's intra-system communication is garbage. Kiana has the leverage of being the one who fronts basically all the time, and there's a distinct adversarial component to their relationship; and so Kiana can, I guess, just sort of bully Sirin into staying out of the limelight.
  • They aren't the same person - but that does not mean that either is somehow illegitimate; or that they don't do some things as a team. Mental health problems, as I understand it, are sort of a team sport for systems.
    • ...which is problematic, because, again, their intra-system communication is garbage.
    • The thing is ... like, Kiana hates Sirin. But Sirin is important to how Kiana functions and who Kiana is.

      Sirin takes Kiana's pain and anger and stores it so that Kiana can smile and fight for the beautiful things in the world. That bubbling discontent doesn't go away, though; it's just, Sirin is being kept away from the surface, away from the front, and so it's not obvious, even to Kiana, how she's coping with that.
  • I don't think that Sirin is 'evil' or 'violent' or whatever. I do think she is much more susceptible to Honkai mind control re: "hey hey have you considered killing everyone?" because Sirin is the one who holds onto Kiana's pain for her.

    Because Sirin, who has her own shit going on, is also doing her best to keep Kiana stable; is face-tanking their shared trauma and anger and pain so Kiana can run DPS. And that makes it much easier for the Will of the Honkai to get its hooks into her and start controlling her.

WTF Is: Trauma?
I actually want to take a minute here to talk trauma psychology, because that is something I have firsthand experience with, and is relevant, and is not, to the best of my knowledge, well-understood by the culture at large.

I think the basic idea - that sufficient awfulness can leave a lingering mental 'scar' - is basically understood.

(I would like to point out that 'sufficient' is a really wibbly standard, mostly because the brain only has once scale and resizes experiences to fit. Suffering is subjective. What is traumatic for one person might sleet off another with no harm done. That doesn't make any trauma, no matter how trivial it seems from the outside, somehow not count.)

What is not well known, as far as I can tell, is what trauma is like.

My understanding of the neurology of it goes something like this:
  1. Experiences happen
  2. These create short-term, emotionally-charged memories
  3. After a short period, these memories are unloaded into long-term storage
    1. An aside: 'stored' memories are not recordings. Rather, memories are blueprints, for reconstructing an experience later. This is why memory is really terrible at keeping facts straight and is super-mutable after the fact.
  4. As a crucial part of this storage process, most of the emotional markers are stripped away from a memory.
  5. This step is where trauma interferes: a traumatic experience is so unpleasant, is so frightening, the brain can't remove the emotional charge. A traumatic memory gets stored with its emotional markers intact.
  6. This fucks everything up. The way your brain tells what is a memory and what is actually happening right now is by checking the emotional markers - so a traumatic memory, in a sense, never stops happening.
It's always fresh.

It never gets any less painful. It never feels any further away. Whenever you remember it, it always feels real and immediate and present, no matter the situation.

Why are flashbacks such a common PTSD symptom? Because a traumatic memory is still happening.

Every time it comes up, every time it triggers, it is the same as the first time.

Time does not heal all wounds. Anyone who tells you that is woefully misinformed, or a liar.

Every new memory formed? Every new experience? It is in the shadow of the trauma, to a greater or lesser extent, because trauma is an ongoing disaster.

Trauma is generally not a hole people are capable of digging themselves out of. It fades, some, with time; but it won't go away entirely without help.

The kind of trauma therapy I'm familiar with is reprocessing - trying to fix the way the traumatic memory is stored, by running through it piecemeal in a safe context and trying to chip away at the massive distorting weight of its emotional distress markers in various ways. There may be other approaches, I don't know.

Untreated trauma, to my knowledge, basically gets dealt with by dissociation. That's really the only thing the brain has in its trauma toolkit. Suppress, deny, distance, pretend it's not there, it's not happening.

Okay What's the Takeaway
Basically -

I'm modeling this situation as ... Kiana and Sirin, together, are very traumatized. They have a lot of pain, a lot of suffering, a lot of loss and sorrow in their history.

Except Kiana can sometimes dissociate, can nope out and leave Sirin to deal with it; while also denying that Sirin is real, is important, or should be allowed to have any say in what they do.

Sirin has nowhere she can dump her trauma to avoid dealing with it.

For Sirin ... the torture at Babylon Labs never stopped.

Her mother cradling her as they both died never stopped.

Class Monitor Fu Hua betraying her to Otto never stopped.

The whispers of the Honkai, the memory of that, never stopped.

The screams of the innocent, the dying, that never stopped.

It's all still happening to her. Maybe not all the time, maybe not every second of every day - but every time she remembers any of it, it's still fresh, it still triggers fear and fight/flight responses, it's still happening right now even if it was years in the past.


...

Right now. The girl, the living one, on the ground -

That's Sirin.

The dead one? That's ... a memory, I guess, a nightmare figment, of torture and death at Shicksal's hands.

This entire hellscape? Sirin having a nightmare, or some sort of concrete reification of her traumas.
Okay Wat Do
The thing is ... there are a pair here who have had, historically, somewhat rocky relations, but who have patched that up and learned to work together.

I'm not qualified to say whether or not Seele and Vel are plural - Veliona is, um, something of an external, possessing entity, rather than arising from the same hardware as Seele; and they both seem to be pretty happy with being separate, while also being fine with being together if the situation calls for it.

The question of if they're plural seems like it's up to them, honestly, and possibly to the larger plural community.

That said, they are two people, who until quite recently shared a body; who are, in fact, currently sharing a body again, with Veliona fronting right now by mutual agreement.

So, um:
Seele might need to give this pair a quick guide on coexistence. Then again, K423 and Sirin aren't in the same position as Seele and Veliona, so any such lecture would likely be misplaced.
This ... honestly doesn't strike me as a bad idea, @Baughn.

Because, like -

It seems to me that Kiana and Sirin are going to have to learn how to live together. Because it's become increasingly clear that they are a team, that they are in this together; and they need to learn how to communicate.

Sifting them out into separate bodies, assuming Seele could even do that which I sort of doubt -

like, Seele can move Vel out into a separate body, because Seele and Vel run on a weird quantum fragment substrate, which Seele has the tools to manipulate. The Kiana-Sirin system runs on good old-fashioned brains and also on I guess the Core of the Void, which Seele definitely does not have the expertise to manipulate

- is a) not Seele's call to make without a lot of discussion with both Kiana and Sirin. It would be hugely immoral, a gross violation of every ethical standard, to do that without their consent.

and b) would probably not be remotely healthy for either Kiana or Sirin.

The fact that they're plural is not the problem. It's not wrong or bad or harmful. It's who they are, how they work, and that's fine.
The fact that Kiana and Sirin can't communicate is the problem.

They're a team. They support each other. They help each other. They just ... don't know how to do teamwork.

Sirin is a crucial member of Kiana's support structure, at a time when several of the other members of that support structure have died. Kiana needs her more than ever.

Kiana is how Sirin experiences the world - they seem to have the sort of system dynamic where one member always, or nearly always, fronts; I'm not qualified to say if they're just like that, or if Kiana is actively confining Sirin when Sirin tries to switch - but Kiana refuses to acknowledge her as real, important, or on her side.

...sorry, this is like two thousand words of fairly dense psychological technical jargon, isn't it?

...and I don't actually have a vote.

...I just -

look, short-term? I suggest going to protect Sirin from her nightmares. Big damn heroines moment

medium-term? fuck if I know. Impromptu grief counseling, I guess.

long-term? talk it over with Vel, and then with Kiana - because it now seems obvious to me that Kiana holds all the power in her system, and she needs to start acknowledging Sirin as real and as nonadversarial before any other progress is going to be made.

Right I've been typing for three hours and completely missed breakfast, I'm going to go get brunch I guess and think about a vote.
 
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Yup, trauma sucks, though I've never quite thought about it that way, but yes, that's a good way to explain/reason why getting triggered is getting triggered.

The most notable examples are war veterans who you do not approach when they're staring off into space and are not here because they might be reliving being in the trenches and shaking them is putting yourself there with them for that split moment- And then they react.

PTSD triggers are also refered to as "reliving the experience" so... I suppose that's more literal of a way to explain it than I gave it credit for even as I experienced it myself.

Personal experience says being helpless is the worst, but having someone step in and actually help you, actually do something meaningful in that moment to help, is one of the best things. And part of that is telling them that it is only for this moment, because losing that sense of safety sucks even more, but you can brace yourself for that at least.

I also noticed everyone is ignoring the cut up Sirin? We really shouldn't be. Show that we're here to help all of her if they let us.
 
...right, okay. I've had some time to think, and -

(SNIP)
I want you to know that I consider this post insightful, and worth more than one insightfulness point.

I'm also not sure it's entirely accurate, but--

Also, now that you've brought this up, I'm going to need help from a friend of mine to work out how this will work. If you hadn't, and had voted for, like, dragging Sirin out of there -- then you'd most likely have rendered Kiana comatose, and you wouldn't have gotten a functioning Sirin out of it either -- but I could have handled it mechanically, based on my understanding of how brains work at the neuronal / DNN-sized network level.

Since you're instead headed towards potentially positive outcomes, hmm, it won't be that easy.

So the vote is temporarily canceled, to give both of us time to think.
 
If you hadn't, and had voted for, like, dragging Sirin out of there -- then you'd most likely have rendered Kiana comatose
Yikes.

...we really should probably stop messing with random quantum phenomena.

They're just so ... messable, though.

Like fidget spinners, only, made out of broken shards of sundered worlds.
 
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Yikes.

...we really should probably stop messing with random quantum phenomena.

They're just so ... messable, though.

Like fidget spinners, only, made out of broken shards of sundered worlds.
I hate to bring this up, but this scenario is the result of a nat 1.

Most possible outcomes are bad. Could be worse; you've avoided the worst ones.
 
I would greatly appreciate having actual plural people contribute to the discussion.
We have been summoned.

Seriously, though, thanks for that thoughtful and sensative post. We'd be happy to try to answer plurality questions within the limits of our ability to do so as a system of a rather different sort than the one depicted here. I'm glad &era linked us to this thread and we'll have to add it to the to-read list. Good timing too: a lot of my normal quests and fics have slowed down of late.
 
Trigger Warnings: Mental manipulation, forced integration/disassociation, massive mental trauma, abandonment, extremely unpleasant source material depictions of possession.

Let me start with this: I'm not a singlet. I'm the host of a very stable system with a fictive headmate and we'd both consider Baughn a good friend. We've talked with him about the situation, read a few posts to get clarity, and would like to help. But being inside the plural sphere as a system only gives us some context a singlet may lack, that's all. We'll probably end up involved in the writing of anything that comes out of this if plural voting options are pursued, though probably not because they're plural related. So let's look at the situation we have in front of us.

Seele is present inside a bubble universe, and it has been stated this chapter that every time she's entered those they've been, to quote:

Every other time, when you were trapped in a bubble universe, it was a reflection of someone's mind. Someone who'd fallen into the Sea, or just been reflected by the Sea, or...

Seele is also aware that Kiana believes her control of her mind is slipping - we'll get to the difficulties implicit in how that statement misses so very much - and has had enough time working with Kiana to get some level of working model for her friend. She would know, I think it reasonable to say, that Kiana is plagued by nightmares. That she suffers for the things she feels she's done. But despite Seele and Vel being highly plural in their own way, theirs is an extremely distinct form of plurality and I wouldn't call it unreasonable for her to need this sort of blunt instrument to realise what's actually going on here.

When looking at this, we have to consider the gross mutilation of Kiana's mental structures, first by Otto, then by HoV, then by Fu Hua in Diane's Sojourn via Phoenix Down. Whilst it's certainly probable that the system of Kiana and Sirin began as an endogenic one, it's pretty clear that manipulation and the life they've had to experience has forced trauma into that original formation. This is made steadily more tragic by the fact that Sirin just wants to be able to live, but due to how utterly fucked communication between her and Kiana is, she can never be heard. Which drives her down the path to HoV, who - yes - we do consider a separate person. Herrschers aren't the people the Honkai make them.

Now, let's look at where we are. The nightmare we're in, calling back to old nightmares that Kiana had. The idea of flames, death, pain. Things that draw from her experiences when she was trapped in her body by the HoV and also from Sirin's own experiences of her horrific existence that I refuse to call a life within Babylon Labs. Which is why we're confident in saying that this isn't a nightmare about losing control, or at least not just that. It's a nightmare about control not existing.

For as long as Sirin has been aware of her new existence, she's been trapped in the body of a girl whose mother she probably sees herself as responsible for killing and without any means to communicate. The only times she was able to talk was when she got forced into becoming the HoV by Otto and that's not Sirin in control. She's closer to the front, as HoV is Honkai energy streaming in through her pain and hatred, but it's still not her. Both of her lives, in fact, can be characterised by a continuous lack of any control over her life. She never chose for her mother to die, she never chose to become a....I have no words to adequately describe what Schicksal did to her and all those other children. She never chose to become HoV, she just wanted the pain to stop. I think you get the picture. Then after she dies, she gets jammed into a new body, with another personality that can't hear her and that is being maneuvered into becoming the HoV again. So she holds on, and she holds on, trying to find a way to talk to Kiana.

Then Otto succeeds, Chapter 9 happens, and the next time we see her she's being literally locked up inside her own mind by Fu Hua to protect a Kiana who hates who she believes Sirin to be. Except Sirin != HoV. She's fallen to the Honkai twice to become that person, that doesn't make Sirin the Herrscher any more than Welt was. She's still just the lost, tortured girl who just wanted comfort and love and has only ever glimpsed it. Baughn has described Kiana as being part of a system of three. We're not sure he's wrong.

You have Kiana, the person who flowered from the bud of new life given by Otto's (albeit mad) genius and the Gem of Serenity.
You have Sirin, the girl who suffered and suffered for all her life and who only wishes for the chance to truly live.
You have the Herrscher of the Void, who is Sirin, but a version of her who has been...essentially corrupted by the will of the Honkai where all the pain of the girl has been turned to hatred and vengeance.

Looping back, we know that Seele is used to bubble universes being reflections. We know that this is, to her, the norm. She directly relates this as a nightmare, and almost makes the link to whose early on. Who is the only other person among the Hyperion's crew who can manipulate the Sea of Quanta, after all. This is the logical link to getting Seele to realise that this is probably Kiana's nightmare. It's a guess, but it has merit. But these memories aren't any that Kiana has ever talked about to Seele, and they've been friends for a while. So either it's just a dream, or there's someone else supplying the memories. And lo and behold, there's someone there on the ground who Seele does not recognise from any descriptions Kiana has ever given her. It's clearly not the HoV. It's not Kiana either. So who is it?

Seele doesn't know who that person is, but she can see that she's in pain, and if this is Kiana's nightmare there's a really, really easy way to get her out of it. Wake Kiana up. Of course, she'll then have to deal with explaining all of this to Kiana, but Kiana legitimately needs to know that there's someone else in her brain with her, who isn't the HoV, and who desperately needs help. We could, of course, try to interact with the nightmare but due to how I know Baughn often plays things, I'd be very hesitant to try and mess around in a bubble universe that is also a quasi-mindscape as a not-so-nascent reality warper. Leaving aside how right now we look like Himeko.

Withdrawing isn't an option as clearly shown. Trying to rip this place apart will probably do horrific damage to Kiana's mind, and I'd really not like to see that. Comfort...risks pushing the wrong button in an unfamiliar mindspace and I can say from personal experience that that can be a really bad idea. It would all be down to if Seele chose the right mechanism of interaction, and her nature could make that a lot harder. Also, y'know, looking like Himeko and I'm not sure if we can change that. So two options emerge. One is to try that pushing a button anyway, try to establish contact with Kiana and/or Sirin in the nightmare and help bring them out of it. I probably would not vote for this option, but it's a possibility, and a well-enough constructed vote could probably do it.

Or Seele follows the bubble universe back to its source who I believe to be Kiana and wakes her up. This immediately ends the nightmare, collapses the bubble universe, and allows what I'd hope to be a productive discussion to take place. Seele can, after all, use her relationship with Vel as an example of how two people can come to very comfortably share a body and mind once proper communication channels are established. There's no larger button in Kiana's mental structure than the one for saving people, and she's a smart cookie even if not one for book learning. She just needs the push.

To attempt (poorly) a tl;dr:
Seele, I think, could safely:
- Attempt to terminate the nightmare via finding its source and waking them.
- Try to locate Kiana and/or Sirin within and 'around' the bubble-universe. Remember that dreams aren't always experienced from direct point of view, though, so this could be a challenge.

In the former case especially, we should probably take a moment to tell the Twins what we're doing so they don't panic about Seele abruptly blinking out of reality, but I think that's within her capabilities.
 
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Hmm.
  • Attempt to terminate the nightmare via finding its source and waking them.
    • Also maybe warn the twins if possible
Or
  • Try to locate Kiana and/or Sirin within and 'around' the bubble-universe.
    • and prep comfort routines I guess?
I'll admit that I like the idea of plan 2, but the implementation difficulties - Seele and Vel are bad at being comforting, they don't actually know Sirin at all, this is a dream and locating her within it may be nontrivial, they are currently involuntarily cosplaying as Himeko, and the point Snowfire raised about the danger a reality warper poses when inside of someone else's mindspace - are altogether rather troubling.

Which leaves option 1, and its attendant raft of implementation difficulties, but what can you do? The world is wrong and damnit I just had a bunch of ideas for a Kiana-Sirin Glitch writeup like the Seele-Vel one I did last month brain why this I'm busy there's a vote

n.e.way

I guess the ... sequencing has to go something like:
  1. Realize this is a Kiana nightmare
  2. Recognize that it is also a Sirin nightmare
  3. Realize that Kiana has another person inside her
  4. Resolve to end this nightmare the expedient way by waking Kiana up
  5. Warn the twins that Seele & Vel need to go wake Kiana up and not to worry if they just blip out for a while.
  6. Navigate to Kiana
  7. Wake her up
  8. Engage "Long conversation about important personal revelations" protocols
Step 2 is congealing this into a vote.

Step 2 is a work in progress.
 
If it would help, we're willing and able to condense these two options into simple vote lines. We actually did that before we even started writing anything here in the thread and know Baughn is ok with it.
That would be very helpful, honestly?
 
I'm on that discord server too, though am much less helpful, but this is the vote in question I believe:

[] Go find Kiana
-[] Have Vel tell the Twins where you're going

You can add detail as you like, but Baughn doesn't need highly detailed votes, he knows what we want and what we're aiming for here, he'll do his best to keep that in mind as an expansion or in the context of the vote that wins.
 
[X] Go find Kiana
-[X] Have Vel tell the Twins where you're going

aaaah this feels weird what is this 'trusting the QM' thing
 
I'm on that discord server too, though am much less helpful, but this is the vote in question I believe:

[] Go find Kiana
-[] Have Vel tell the Twins where you're going

You can add detail as you like, but Baughn doesn't need highly detailed votes, he knows what we want and what we're aiming for here, he'll do his best to keep that in mind as an expansion or in the context of the vote that wins.

Way to spoil all our fun, Sab :V

Anyway, yes. The voting outline we had for this after talking with Baughn and working things through between us was this:

[] Go find Kiana
-[] Have Vel tell the Twins where you're going

This would cover the full sweep of coming to terms with what Seele and Vel are seeing, the connection to what it most likely means, and an immediate action taken to try and abort the trauma loop before it can move any further. Of course, that trauma loop isn't actually getting stopped, but this will at least pause it until Seele can get to Kiana, wake her up, and start trying to explain what she just saw in there. From a metagame perspective, I'd love for Theresa to be present for this as she might recognise the description of Sirin, but I'm not sure. And her presence wouldn't help with the really difficult part of this, with that being how Kiana needs to realise that Sirin is a person distinct from HoV and everything that implies.

This also includes a rider of telling the Twins where you're going, which could be helpful for preventing sudden panic. Roza is rather reckless when she thinks people she cares for are in danger, after all.
I'm watching you Delta.

We'd also suggest not adding anything more to this voteline unless it's felt absolutely necessary. We're going to end up either writing or informing the writing of the more delicate stuff in the next update (and any of the following ones until Baughn gets a handle on this). The utter nightmare that is how HI3 handles Herrschers from a plural standpoint is unlikely to make that trip an easy one.
 
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Scheduled vote count started by Baughn on Nov 5, 2020 at 5:35 PM, finished with 7 posts and 1 votes.

  • [X] Go find Kiana
    -[X] Have Vel tell the Twins where you're going
 
...Ah, right. My mind wandered off and just filed the tally as a periodic status check given the discussion around the vote and forgot it was a scheduled vote. Whoops. :oops:
 
I feel like I voted somewhat earlier, but it doesn't seem to have been counted. Didn't I vote for removing the crying girl from the dream-world?
 
I feel like I voted somewhat earlier, but it doesn't seem to have been counted. Didn't I vote for removing the crying girl from the dream-world?
You did, but not inside the voting window that started yesterday. The previous vote happened without full information, and was therefore skipped.

For what it's worth... if that vote had gone through, it would have rendered both Sirin and Kiana comatose. At best. Though I'm sure I'd have provided chances to back out.

EDIT: We're about 3000 words in, but this will be a long one. Not sure when that's going to be done; it's not tonight.
 
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Kiana and Mei have a similar level of why-even-bother-making-this-subtextual-just have-them-be-girlfriends romantic tension to Bronya and Seele
Speaking of this. I found a fun little video earlier today. This shows Bronya and Seele's history pretty well, at least as well as can be done in a two minute video... it's official, too!



About that idea that it's subtextual? It's not.
 
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Seele Quest: 4.7
You could leave, doing nothing. It would be easy, you wouldn't hurt anyone, and had this been two years ago then you think it's what you would have done. If this had been two years ago, then it's what Veliona would have suggested, and you would have gone along. If it had been two years ago, then your lack of confidence in yourself might have forced you to run, too scared to help the girl below.

But that was two years ago, and today you're too horrified by what you're seeing to even think of running away.

The girl—Kiana, you presume—throws her dagger down next to the woman's body, looking at it with tears streaming down her face. She collapses forward, letting out a soul-rending scream of anguish that nearly breaks your heart. You can't stand by and watch this. Despite your fear, despite the danger, despite everything...

"Seele, wait," Veliona says. "Think about this for a moment."

"I have thought about this, Vel," you say, your voice breaking. "I can't just watch this."

You pick up speed, barreling down towards Kiana. You're not sure it's really her, but who else can it be? Really? You hope it's her. You'll have at least some idea of what to do, if it's her.

"I said stop," Veliona snaps. "Think!"

You shudder to a halt in mid-air, and not by your own choice. Veliona just seized control of your body, locking you out as she watches the girl below you.

"Vel," you whimper. "Let me go. Please, Vel, let me go save her."

"I'm sorry, Seele," she says softly. "I just don't want you to get hurt. Or to hurt Kiana, actually. You can tell, can't you? That this is a nightmare."

"Yes," you say. "Of course I can."

"In that case, who are we?"

Vel holds up a red-and-black armor-clad arm for your inspection. It's not yours. It obviously isn't yours. It's far too muscled for a girl as scrawny as you are, and there are lines on it that, now that you're looking at them, match the symptoms of fatal Honkai poisoning. You stare at it in confusion. The dream is casting you as someone else entirely, but that's normal for dreams. Normal enough at least, for dreams that aren't your own.

"I don't know who this is," Vel says. "It's just, this is a nightmare. What's the chance we're someone that girl will enjoy seeing? What's the chance talking to her will just make everything worse? If we're going down there, let's at least use our own appearance."

She releases you, and you take control of your body once more.

You don't continue descending, instead hovering uncertainly. Vel is right, at least in that you ought to think this through. This is a nightmare, and… in that case…

"This is a nightmare," you say, stating the obvious. "It's not real."

"Well, what do you think?" Vel asks.

You shake your head. "Then, why don't we just wake her?"

Chances are, Kiana's trapped in some way. Maybe she's 'just' having a nightmare, but if that's true then it's the worst nightmare you've ever seen. You'll probably have nightmares about it later, and you still have to fight to stop yourself from flying down and tackle-hugging her.

Maybe it's not just a nightmare. Kiana's the Herrscher of Void, but she's had nightmares before. They've never turned into bubble universes; you think you'd have heard. Kiana's been having nightmares pretty frequently since you met her. This is probably happening because of the situation, but can you take the risk?

Vel remains silent a moment longer.

"We could," she says. "Tearing the bubble apart would do it. It'd be a shock, but this isn't her mind we're in. It's a reflection of her mind. Destroying it is less likely to harm her than changing it would."

You don't like that wording.

"But do you think that's what we should do?" you ask.

"No, it isn't," Vel says. "Look, I'm no more an expert in this than you are. What I think we should do is pack up and leave. If you insist on helping, then I'm out of ideas. Look at her, is that even Kiana?"

She looks downwards, focusing your eyes on the girl below you. She definitely looks like Kiana, purplish-violet hair aside, but...

Your thoughts derail, as the soldiers reach Kiana and surround her. They're yelling, and the ones with guns quickly open fire. She doesn't seem to notice.

You watch as she's shot in the head. Her head snaps to the side from the sheer force of it, fragments of bone and gore flying through the air, but that's all that happens. She doesn't react at all.

Her eyes flare golden. Reality wavers around you, the previously placid fabric of the dream-bubble—regardless of content—suddenly taking on a much more... biological feel. It crawls chaotically, shivers flying up your spine as it almost licks you, curiously trying to determine what you are. It doesn't attack. At least it doesn't attack.

Instead, it almost purrs in satisfaction.

The soldiers react with terror, and the ones who don't immediately die are driven to their knees by abject fear. You watch as Kiana gracefully stands up, untouched by the bullets that should have ruined her body. There's a look of arrogance on her face.

"See?" Vel whispers softly into your mind. "Told you. That's the Herrscher of Void."

You can't stay.

None of this feels right, but you can't stay. You have to get out of here.

You 'push' outwards, drifting through the borders of a bubble universe that has, abruptly, gone sticky. Had Kiana realized you were there, then you don't think you could have. Not, at least, without a risk of hurting her... or the twins, who should still be nearby in the real world.

Your skin tingles as your body dissolves, leaving only the tangle of interlinked concepts that's… you. You're floating over a sea of dreams. You're in a place between dreams and reality, temporarily joined to each other by Kiana's bubble universe. It's dark; there's barely anyone here. Thirty, forty people at most. All you have to do is keep moving 'upwards', and you'll be right back where you left.

Or, you could...

You turn the thought around in your head for a good minute.

Most of you is stuck outside the Hyperion. Kiana could have annihilated your avatar in the Hyperion, body and soul, and it'd barely affect the real you. That's the largest link, and it's only failing to block out your vision because it's inside you, but from here you can reach a few other 'places'. Configurations. There's Kiana's dream, and those of a few dozen other people, though all the others would be dead ends. There's that piece of corridor you came from, linked to the nightmare world by the rift you were trying to close. And there's Kiana herself...

Could you return to reality in Kiana's bedroom, instead of where you came from?

From the corridor it'd take you at least an hour to get to Kiana, and that's assuming you don't get lost. Too long to stop a nightmare. Far too long for one like this. You bet she's back at the bridge, bunking with Theresa or her father, but you might even be wrong about that.

From in here… the connection is thin, barely there, and it's doing something subtle you aren't sure of, but it's still a connection. You should be able to chase it back.

"Vel, I'm going to do something stupid," you say, and explain your idea. She's silent for a few minutes as you drift through the void. You feel her emotions change several times.

Not exactly.

You feel the expressions she's trying to make, even if you don't strictly speaking have a face at the moment.

When did life get so strange?

You know the answer, of course; it just isn't one you care to remember. It brought you Veliona, yes. Taught you to work together. But if you'd been given the choice, between three years with Bronya and…

Between Bronya and your other half…

You go still, silently floating in the space between concepts. A butterfly with unflapping wings.

Between her and… it wasn't meant to be this way, but Veliona's really changed, and… and Rozaliya already…

If you don't want to risk something precious, then you should stop lying to yourself. Rozaliya's right.

"The last time you did something this foolish, you turned a fire extinguisher into a cognitive hazard," your sister says in her usual way, ignorant of your internal turmoil. "Are you sure about this?"

"It put out the fire, didn't it?" you reply, smiling widely.

There's another pause. Your thoughts hitch. You try to put it out of your mind, to focus on saving Kiana. Who's maybe got someone like Vel locked up inside her, unable to talk. For a while, you actually thought of her as a demon. It's hard not to have your thoughts dragged back to your sister.

What's Veliona thinking, you wonder? She's studying you.

You think you know how Liliya feels now. All you want to do is to hold her, and not let go.

"I'm almost sure I'm supposed to talk you out of this," she says. "I just find I don't want to. You'll be careful, right?"

"I'll be fine," you say.

"No, I mean with Kiana. I'm sure you'll be fine, but she's fragile right now."

You nod, distractedly, and hug Veliona inside your head. You can feel her confusion about what you're doing. It is, admittedly, easier when you're in separate bodies. Or when you have any sort of body whatsoever. You laugh to yourself about that.

"I have one more request," you say, voice wavering only slightly. "Can you go back to the twins and let them know what I'm doing? I don't want to just up and disappear on them. Rozaliya would go spare."

You hope that's something she can do, because saying the twins would be unimpressed is an understatement. They might actually do something that could hurt them. If Veliona says no, then—as much as you hate the idea—you'll have to leave Kiana to her own devices. The risk of losing your two younger sisters, of losing what little is left of your family, is just too high. Any risk at all would be too high.

Vel is quiet for a moment.

"If this goes south, and I'm not there," she says.

You nod. "I'll get out. I won't hesitate even a second."

She nods, before you feel her split off.

"The twins do seem like fun. They remind me of someone," she says, smiling wanly. "I'm not sure who. Okay. I'll head out first, just in case this goes wrong."

You nod. "See you soon, big sis."

Vel hesitates a final, shocked moment, then turns around, giving you a final wave before disappearing. You make your own preparations.

It's... wrong, you think, to say your wings look like those of a butterfly. For one, they're far too large; they don't look like wings, they look like an ocean. Their tracery of azure lines rises up around you, fully unfolding, a line-drawing of something that might be butterfly wings and might be a continent.

For another, it's not that you're a teenage girl with wings. That tracery, untangled, is you; the girl, a superfluous appendage. Spread out in three-dimensional reality, the wings only look like wings because of someone's sense of aesthetics. You love butterflies, so maybe it's yours?

In conceptual space, you only look like a butterfly because Bronya keeps saying you do. Most of the time you're folded up inside your stigma, but your physical, pretend-biological body has gotten less and less important. You use it for—eating cake, and hugging people—both crucial activities, yet neither is something you want to do right now.

It's a butterfly made of light, therefore, which skims around Kiana's dream, seeking a return to reality—but not the obvious, simple path. It's a strain, one that grows the further you get from Veliona, and you feel lonely in a way you haven't been since you were twelve. Still, you have to try. You can't leave Kiana alone, not like this. At least, you... you assume it's Kiana.

ooOOoo

It's Kiana.

You wing your way back into reality, manifesting with a convulsive effort that leaves you dizzy and stumbling, and it's all you can do not to fall over. When you straighten up, the first thing you see is Kiana, curled up in her bed and crying. She's definitely asleep, but the tears streaming down her face are very real.

She's recreated the St. Freya dorms, with enough beds for six people, but there's only her and Theresa in the room. That fact barely registers, in the face of her pain.

"Kiana?" you whisper, touching her shoulder gently, only to have to catch yourself when she flinches away with a whimper. The walls around you pulse three words, a desperate prayer in a voice full of terror.

"Ich liebe dich."
"Ich liebe dich."
"Ich liebe dich."

"Kiana!"

You don't exactly shout, something tells you that would be bad. But you speak loudly, reaching out with both hands this time, pulling the older girl close. The whispers stutter, for a moment accelerating into a wordless scream. But you don't flinch. And then her arms are grasping you tight, pulling you close, clinging in desperation in a way that you'd never imagined Kiana would ever do.

Is it Kiana? You try to answer that as the hold loosens swiftly, a sniffle drawing attention to the sudden wetness at your breast. It's hard to imagine, and-

"Seele?" She asks, the confusion clear. "I thought you went to search for survivors. What are you doing here? "

In for a penny, as that odd saying went. You take a breath, and sit up.

"I came to find you, Kiana," you confess.

"You did?" she asks, her voice childishly hopeful, and you nod.

"I found somewhere while we were searching," you say, trying to be gentle. "I think I found another survivor. But I can't save her."

"Why not?"

"She's…" How did you explain this? "She's stuck somewhere, somewhere horrible. I can feel her, she's scared and confused and hurt. But I can't save her. I came to get you to help me."

"Of course," Kiana nods. "Where is she?"

"Please," you say, pulling tight as Kiana tries to rise. "Just...tell me you'll listen first."

She looks confused, but nods. "Alright."

You reach up with one hand, and tap your friend gently on her forehead. "She's in here, Kiana," you explain, tapping your own head. "Like Vel used to be with me, only I don't think you can hear her."

You wait patiently, and Kiana is quiet for a moment.

"Seele," she says carefully. "What are you talking about?"

"I…" You stumble a little. It's hard to explain this when you're still feeling so alone. Vel will be back soon, you tell yourself. "When we went looking, we found a bubble universe, one not like any I'd ever seen. All the others I've been in, they're like echoes, maybe dreams. But this was a nightmare. And I think it was–" You swallow hard. "I think it was your nightmare, Kiana."

She stares at you, uncomprehending, and you find the words coming out in a rush. How you'd appeared in that awful world of ice and ash, finding two violet-haired girls. One torn apart, the other holding a knife. The terror, the pain in her voice. Everything else.

"I think," you say quietly. "When you were little, something happened to you. Something awful." You reach out to touch her shoulder, but she pulls away. "Kiana, I'm sorry. You don't deserve this. No one deserves this."

"What did you do?" Kiana asks. Her voice is shrill. Fearful? Angry? It's not that you don't understand, but–

"Nothing," you say. "You know you weren't the first Herrscher of the Void, Kiana." She didn't recognise the place you'd described, yet her face had turned pale as a ghost when you'd described the girl and the woman so similar to her. "I think that when you were young, when Otto did what he did, it wasn't just the previous Herrscher that found a home in your mind." You close your eyes. "I think someone else did too, and I've found her. She's been alone all her life, and she's in agony."

"Her?"

"That girl. The girl who became the first Herrscher of the Void."

You hear Kiana gasp as she puts the pieces together. Then...

"No." She shakes her head. "That can't be. She's my nightmare. She's... she's not a person. She's a monster!" Desperation makes the words louder, fuelled by rejection and fear.

"The Herrscher of Void?" You shake your head. "A monster, yes, but everything we know says that wasn't by choice. The girl who was forced to become her?" You harden your words, despite everything it costs you. "Do you think she had any more freedom in that than you did?"

You're angry; you want Kiana to understand. The girl you found was a scared child, clearly in agony.

"What do you think can go wrong, if you just try to talk to her?" you ask. "Not the Herrscher, but this girl. The one I saw in your nightmare."

Kiana's eyes dart around, wild with terror, then fall on you. She breathes deeply, as if trying to control herself. Takes another breath. Then, she nods.

"I'll try." She closes her eyes, and leans back onto the bed. You stay sitting.

You wait.

Vel is back with you by the time Kiana opens her eyes again, her presence a much-needed balm to your anxiety. Kiana's face is a mask of horror, and her blue eyes swim with tears.

"You're right," she says. "I can… I can feel her. She's so scared."

"Kiana–"

"But I need to understand. She's too scared, too hurt, so much that I can barely reach her and I don't even know her name." She pushes herself up, ignoring how one hand punches straight through the sheets and bed below it. "I need to know her name!"

There's a terrible will in those words, enough to make you shiver and for Vel to draw suddenly close, red light glinting where only you can see it. Kiana doesn't notice, but her eyes are still blue. That's something. She's out of the bed before you can move, crosses the dorm room with a handful of swift steps, and there she does something you'd never have dared. She places one hand on each of Theresa's shoulders and shakes. Hard.

"Wake up, Theresa. I need you to wake up right now, there's someone I need to ask you about."

"Wha-?" The girl groans, rolling over and opening her eyes. When they land on Kiana, she jolts upright in bed. "Kiana? What are you doing?"

"The girl who became the first Herrscher of the Void," Kiana demands, ignoring the question. "What was her name, Theresa?"

"W-what?"

"Her name. What was her fucking name!"

"I...I don't understand. Kiana, what's wrong?"

Vel's hands clench into fists as you feel the world around you shudder, and Kiana reels back with a cry of pain.

"Her name, Theresa!" She cries. "I can't explain why. Please, just tell me!"

"Sirin," the diminutive headmistress replies. "Her name was Sirin."

Kiana slumps, sagging back against you as if all strength has left her body. You gasp for breath, vision darkening as you find yourself staring into Kiana's exhausted eyes. She's doing something, something that's making the space around her harden, and that, combined with exhaustion from being separated from your sister, is making it almost impossible to keep standing.

"Sirin?"

"That," Kiana whispers, "That's her name. I can feel it."

Her head turns, gaze finding yours across the room. "Thank you," she breathes, and all your reservations about her, about this situation, seem to disintegrate in that one moment. This is your Kiana, the real one.

You've never been so happy to see her in your life.

The moment is sullied somewhat by the sudden flash of movement behind Kiana. Golden chains whirl in around Theresa, ripping through the bed as a large cross crashes down through it. It splits along an invisible seam, flaring with power as spears of golden light glint in anticipation. The look on the headmistress's face is hard, fury and fear carving it from granite in a way no child's should.

Vel moves faster than you could hope to match, her red-and-black clothed form darting forward in a blur. You leap forward to catch her, and succeed only in running into her back as she comes to a stop with her right hand fastened about Theresa's wrist.

"This isn't what you think." There's no room for argument in her voice, but Theresa finds a space anyway.

"Don't you know who that is?" She snaps, her voice icy. "Don't you know–"

"It's not the Herrscher." You surprise yourself with your own fierceness, slipping past Vel and placing yourself between Theresa and Kiana. "Please, Theresa. It's really not."

"Then who is she?"

"The girl who remembers you trying to be kind," Kiana says from behind you both, yet there's something different to her voice. A ragged softness, in utter opposition to her usual boisterous nature. "And who remembers what the cross can do. Please, don't use it."

"Ki-Kiana?" Theresa never drops her stance, ready to release the Oath of Judah in an instant, but her voice tells another tale.

"Not," a small gasp of pain, "not just me anymore. But not Her, either. Someone new...and older than me." You turn to find her shaking her head, a rich violet shimmering across her normally pure white hair. "She...remembers you, I think. It's hard to tell, I can barely hear her. But she's here with me, Aunt Teri, and I know what She felt like. Sirin isn't Her."

"How can you be sure?" Theresa asks, her hands lowering ever so slightly. Behind her, the golden spears begin to retract back into the cross.

"Because I can feel her." Kiana's smile is almost heartbreaking. "All she wants is a friend."

ooOOoo

"So, um," you say.

It takes you all a while to calm down, and to be truthful, you want nothing more than to fade into the background. To be entirely honest, you'd like it even better if you could leave; go back to search and rescue duty. It'd be easy to justify. You left your younger siblings hanging, for one, and a lot of people with them.

There's just…

"Yes, Seele? What is it?" Theresa says. She at least is back to normal.

"I…" You hesitate. "I just, um… there's something I have to tell you," you say in a rush. She blinks blearily at you. She looks tired, but it's the middle of the night, you guess.

You weren't gone that many hours. That's something you prefer not to think about.

Before she can respond, you squeeze Vel's hand and rush on. She stiffens a little.

"I, um. I want to introduce you to my twin… older sister," you say. Your skin is prickling. "Theresa, this is Veliona… Vollerei? I thought I should let you… know that. And I want you to meet each other."

You make it a question, lean into Veliona's side and shrink a little. She gives you a strange look, but nods, relaxing against you in a way you aren't at all used to.

"Yeah," your sister says, smiling softly. "Yeah, I think I'd like that."

= = =

You shouldn't assume Seele's perspective is the correct one. She said the right things, not necessarily for the right reasons; there's no guarantee she will in the future. Although there's definitely a sense in which her and Veliona are identical twins, or even the same person, it bears stating that they were born fifty thousand years apart.

They're separate people, every bit as distinct from each other as Roza and Liliya. For a while they were stuck with just a single body, yes, but that's all it was.

Also, massive thanks to @Snowfire for helping me with the second half of this chapter.

On a meta note: While I enjoy high update rates as much as anyone, it just isn't possible to write a good update all in a single evening. That isn't a matter of time; I can't spot flaws without sleeping on it. So from now on, expect updates to take two days (when they don't intimately involve Kiana). It'll give me time to work on my other quest.

Votes will still be until consensus.

[ ] Stay with Kiana as moral support / help restoring the corridors

Plus: We'll be nearby if this goes south.
Minus: Nobody is doing any rescuing.

- [ ] Starting with engineering
Plus: This is mostly done.
Minus: It'll still take most of a day. Probably.

- [ ] Starting with a path to the twins
Plus: Rozaliya doesn't bonk you. Someone is doing some rescuing.
Minus: The bridge isn't connected to engineering yet.

[ ] Go back to S&R
- [ ] Starting with the twins

Plus/minus: Fairly obvious.
Meta: Faster updates… temporarily.

[ ] Write-in
 
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