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Scientia Weaponizes The Future

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Ferrite said:
Ok, to say that I have questions is an understatement. Actually, one question. If she is a simulation built after Taylor basically died of meningitis or some other infection, how did the VI have the knowledge that a reader of Worm would have had? If she started out with access to whatever memories Taylor had from before the locker, I could understand that because the simulation is running on Taylor's brain-meat so I could see having access to the past on Bet.

Unless I'm seriously misunderstanding this, the VI had an unrestricted read the future capability when it implanted itself.

Great. Make another one with the current timeline to see how things will turn out. If that simulation shows a fail state, move forward in a different direction. We have now effectively made a new version of Coil's power.
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The original Earth Bet timeline was visible/exposed as part of the process of opening up a path to travel between universes using the origin civilization method. This post has it pretty spot on. The machine they did it with was destroyed in the process because they used the vacuum collapse shockfront as a source of power.
 
I'm really impressed--you've logically explained an SI character with CYOA Inspired Inventor power placed by a (sorta) ROB while making it interesting and original. Very cool.

I do wonder what title the charge(s) spent on 'coping skills' come under.
 
Ferrite said:
how did the VI have the knowledge that a reader of Worm would have had?
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That was a oneshot based on a machine that basically scanned the entire universe's timeline and spit out what should have happened if they didn't interfere. They can't do it again because 1) the machine broke and they can't build another one in the old universe because they have very limited materials and power available for that and 2) doing anything like it from a Bet-adjacent universe is probably going to tip off Scion that something is Fucky Wucky.

Edit: wow, ninja'd by the author.
 
Ferrite said:
If she is a simulation built after Taylor basically died of meningitis or some other infection, how did the VI have the knowledge that a reader of Worm would have had?
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The question that this brings to mind is:

How is it that Taylor didn't survive?
Her body is still good, her brain is still functioning so why is Taylor dead?
 
Araurlis said:
Her body is still good, her brain is still functioning so why is Taylor dead?
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Important parts were essentially destroyed by the infection and the neural lace had to rebuild them. It can grow and arrange new neurons, but it can't fix information lost before it had a chance to gather data. So it had to make a new personality to insert.
 
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Dur'id the Druid said:
Everything has limits. It's perfectly believable that with her higher function neurons cooked, and so changing that much at the atomic level, and no backups preserved, that bringing her back is just a fantasy without resorting to outright time travel.
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Yeah, the only way I see Taylor being revived is through the use of certain esoteric powers, likely requiring Shard/Entity cooperation.

Like, maybe using Entity Postcog to grab a snapshot of her brain at a point before her death or something.

Potentially doable even without cooperation if people with the right powers exist, but I don't think it would be a high enough priority right now.
 
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WillRobinson said:
Yeah, the only way I see Taylor being revived is through the use of certain esoteric powers, likely requiring Shard/Entity cooperation.

Like, maybe using Entity Postcog to grab a snapshot of her brain at a point before her death or something.
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Build a new Taylor body, implant a neural lace, transfer Taylor's memories from Scientia. Or do it the other way so that Scientia ends up with a body different to Taylor.
 
Araurlis said:
Build a new Taylor body, implant a neural lace, transfer Taylor's memories from Scientia. Or do it the other way so that Scientia ends up with a body different to Taylor.
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I think you missed the OP's reply to your last post. Scientia's brain no longer contains most of Taylor's memories. Certainly not enough to reconstruct her.
 
WillRobinson said:
I think you missed the OP's reply to your last post. Scientia's brain no longer contains most of Taylor's memories. Certainly not enough to reconstruct her.
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Most of the memories are there, but executive function/personality was badly damaged.

Brain science is interesting; as we've learned from people with serious brain injuries, those are different things and our intuitive conception of selfhood as a unitary thing isn't really accurate. We have a lot of parts, they just seem like a seamless whole to us when they're all working properly.

I have an illness that, before I got diagnosed and found medication that works, caused parts of my brain to stop working properly. It was a pretty frightening but also fascinating experience. I remember not being able to add even single digit numbers without a great deal of effort, for example. I knew I should be able to do it, but I couldn't. There was also one time when I could see a full visual field, but I couldn't understand anything outside a tiny bit in the middle of it. That was really odd, and to this day I haven't found a name for the symptom in any medical text. It wasn't the same thing as tunnel vision.

Brains are cobbled together jury-rigged things and we don't really appreciate that in our daily life.
 
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Oh I am already hyped for more Sidar Lenn. Though, I'm kinda surprised that he didn't spring for an extra pair of arms or something like that just to try them out. I would've. I'm pretty sure a prehensile tail with a blade at the end would be useful in a fight.
 
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Araurlis said:
Build a new Taylor body, implant a neural lace, transfer Taylor's memories from Scientia. Or do it the other way so that Scientia ends up with a body different to Taylor.
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everything that was Taylor is there, but what makes Taylor, taylor, her "ego" or personality or soul was destroyed, if you went with what you mentioned it'd be a being that knows who taylor Herbert is but has no emotional connection to it, similar to what hapoened to scientia itd be Taylor but wouldn't act like her (I think)

if you wanted to remake her than you'd just need to redo the personality creation that happened to scientia, with the memories as a basis, but she'd end up with similar existential issues that scientia just, shoved to the side
 
GeekGod_of_Speed said:
everything that was Taylor is there, but what makes Taylor, taylor, her "ego" or personality or soul was destroyed, if you went with what you mentioned it'd be a being that knows who taylor Herbert is but has no emotional connection to it, similar to what hapoened to scientia itd be Taylor but wouldn't act like her (I think)

if you wanted to remake her than you'd just need to redo the personality creation that happened to scientia, with the memories as a basis, but she'd end up with similar existential issues that scientia just, shoved to the side
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I agree with you that the new Taylor would have a somewhat different personality than the old Taylor but she wouldn't have the same issues as Scientia because she'd only have one set of memories.
 
Look, if some hyperadvanced society wants to try to simulate me they are fully welcome to try, even if they can't get me exactly correct because they're working with incomplete data. 99% revived is better than 100% dead.

I know that's controversial for you Ship of Theseus/Continuity of Consciousness idealists, though.
 
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My rule-of-thumb, is that any process that can produce duplicates, cannot produce the original. If you can produce duplicate, then those duplicates can develop into independent entities with their own separate backgrounds, and thus are clearly different people. Similar people, yes, but not the same one. If you run the process twice, and get different people, how can you expect running the process once to get a same-person? It is fine if you just want to grace the world with your glorious image for all eternity. It won't be the real you, but it can be near enough that nobody will notice or care. If you actually want to avoid dying, however, then it is a futile gesture, because any deaths that occur in such an arrangement have very clearly occured to a distinct, separate, and unique entity who has very much died in every way.

Obviously, if the objective doesn't involve not dying, then great, the copy of you can have all manner of useful or narcissistic utility, but it is a distinct entity whose business is its own, and very much not yours. It can be a means of transitioning to a new society, but not a means of preserving the population of a society. To anyone who just doesn't care about death, or only cares about having familiar stuff around and doesn't care about what that familiar stuff experiences, then there shouldn't be a problem, but there also isn't any intrinsic value either, so why bother?
 
outwrangle said:
Look, if some hyperadvanced society wants to try to simulate me they are fully welcome to try, even if they can't get me exactly correct because they're working with incomplete data. 99% revived is better than 100% dead.

I know that's controversial for you Ship of Theseus/Continuity of Consciousness idealists, though.
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I'm not the people you're addressing that to, but I think you're mistaking the question a bit here.

Is it ethical to remake an approximate Taylor Hebert? Can't see why not if one is otherwise ethical WRT appropriate practices for creating new people.

Is it ethical to inject that Taylor Hebert approximation into the Taylor Hebert shaped hole in Earth Bet society currently occupied by Scientia? That's more fraught. Doing so would involve lying to a lot of people, some of whom have pretty convincing rights to know, or reading Danny in on the fact that this is not a perfect return of the Taylor he lost (which might have repercussions for nu-Taylor).

But asking if it's ethical is skipping past 'is there even a reason'? Who are you doing it for? The Taylor who died? She's dead and it's really hard to say you're acting as she would have wished when she probably didn't think about these questions ever. Danny? Maybe but informed consent is probably a thing you want there. Scientia so she can disengage from pretending to be Danny's daughter? Sketchy. The nu-Taylor? Not convincing, you could probably give her a better start in life than being a replacement Taylor Hebert, and also she doesn't exist yet.


If a hyperadvanced society wants to simulate me, okay. But if they want to simulate me poorly and then just tell the simulation and everyone I know that the simulation is simply me? I have some concerns. Well. If I'm dead at the time I don't have any concerns, but the simulation probably will have some if they find out the details. They might or might not want to carry on my identity.
 
Aineko said:
But asking if it's ethical is skipping past 'is there even a reason'?
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Fair. Danny and Taylor would probably react poorly. Sure, they might get over it, but with that logic you can do anything to anyone for the Greater Good.

No need to keep secrets forever, though. Once Scion is dealt with Danny deserves the truth anyway.
 
Lucifra said:
That was a oneshot based on a machine that basically scanned the entire universe's timeline and spit out what should have happened if they didn't interfere. They can't do it again because 1) the machine broke and they can't build another one in the old universe because they have very limited materials and power available for that and 2) doing anything like it from a Bet-adjacent universe is probably going to tip off Scion that something is Fucky Wucky.
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3) From Bet's perspective, the old universe is gone entirely and there are no connections to use for another shot. Retroactively disconnected due to the vacuum collapse. There basically is no old universe, just the pocket space with a transmitter link which is synched with the Bet timeline now.

It sounds like it is only possible to do the timeline scan during transition from a vacuum collapsing universe due to that retroactive disconnect meaning that the connection point in spacetime is undefined and sort of everywhere at once thanks to that.
Also, it was mentioned that singularities are the connection points, so that retroactive disconnect is a critical feature for travel at all; it means that your emergence point is inside a black hole that retroactively never existed and can't kill you... if you were coming from a stable universe, the connection and singularity would be stable too, and you would "wake up dead" on the other side (being crushed at the center of a black hole tends to do that to a person)
 
TaliesinSkye said:
As for why she's not angry, well...the VI acted in a way that the people who created it never anticipated. It's not around anymore to get angry at, and it wasn't even sapient in the first place. With what happened to her being an accident, and the people being genuinely apologetic and trying to help, in addition to in desperate need, it's hard to stay angry at them. I think she's mostly just feeling a profound sense of loss that overwhelms anything else.
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I think to me the weirdest bit is thinking that... you know, it'd be really weird to get mad at your creators for the accident of your birth? I guess if you were depressed enough to think life is a wholly negative experience, but by all rights, these people did the absolute best by her that they could. The fact that her creation was unintended and has terrifying solipsist implications is a big negative, but it's balanced against every bit of happiness she's ever experienced ever.

I don't think it makes sense to get mad at something or someone if you're not trying to change the world or those people, and saying that they were mistaken to create the VI and allow it to act in the way it did would be implicitly saying that her birth is problematic to her. The alternative to being created in that manner isn't "it was real all along" but rather "she never existed in the first place, and trillions of people die with no recourse."

So, yeah, it makes sense to me that anger wouldn't really be the first response she's reaching for. Melancholy maybe?
 
Aineko said:
Is it ethical to inject that Taylor Hebert approximation into the Taylor Hebert shaped hole in Earth Bet society currently occupied by Scientia? That's more fraught. Doing so would involve lying to a lot of people, some of whom have pretty convincing rights to know, or reading Danny in on the fact that this is not a perfect return of the Taylor he lost (which might have repercussions for nu-Taylor).

But asking if it's ethical is skipping past 'is there even a reason'? Who are you doing it for? The Taylor who died? She's dead and it's really hard to say you're acting as she would have wished when she probably didn't think about these questions ever. Danny? Maybe but informed consent is probably a thing you want there. Scientia so she can disengage from pretending to be Danny's daughter? Sketchy. The nu-Taylor?
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Actually for all practical and legal purposes Scienta is Taylor daughter - she inherit Taylor genetics and part of the body(in Scienta case 90+%) and she is not foreign person in Taylor body - she was grown inside of it. Thefore Scienta is Danny granddaughter. Legaly Danny and Scientia should be able to decide on Taylor revival as closest relatives of incapacitated person.
 
JmonsterNEO said:
Oh I am already hyped for more Sidar Lenn. Though, I'm kinda surprised that he didn't spring for an extra pair of arms or something like that just to try them out. I would've. I'm pretty sure a prehensile tail with a blade at the end would be useful in a fight.
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Considering Sidar Lenn character he wouldn't bother with such paltry mdifications. His combat form would be something like a swarm of semiorganic drones.
 
Aineko said:
If a hyperadvanced society wants to simulate me, okay. But if they want to simulate me poorly and then just tell the simulation and everyone I know that the simulation is simply me? I have some concerns. Well. If I'm dead at the time I don't have any concerns, but the simulation probably will have some if they find out the details. They might or might not want to carry on my identity.
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I guess that would depend on the memories, personality, and pre-commitments that the person being simulated had, though?

So, take this with a grain of salt, because it's my own personal views, which may not align with anyone else's, but I'm personally obsessed with the idea of 'living forever.'

Whether that means medicine/technology gets to the point where I'm functionally immortal, or if I cryogenically freeze myself for future medicine to make me functionally immortal, or if my brain can get transplanted into a new body and/or robot, or if I'm uploaded into a digital consciousness somehow (a la simulation, perhaps? =P), I've already 'pre-committed' to the idea that if my consciousness, or at least a version of my consciousness, gets to persist, then I'm more than okay with that.

In fact, barring any obvious nightmare scenarios like a life of eternal pain, slavery, and/or sensory deprivation, I'd probably be very happy I get to continue experiencing life, the universe, and everything, even if it's not the "original me," if that makes any sense.

Does anyone know the Altered Carbon franchise? Long story short, and I'm probably skipping a few details, medical technology has gotten to the point where human bodies are just metaphorical 'sleeves' that you can wear like clothing, and your true memories/consciousness is stored in what amounts to an absurdly advanced memory storage device that sits near your brain. If you die (and if you have the money), you simply get restored from backup, sans any memories you might have lost between backup periods. If you're absurdly rich, you have a personal satellite that allows for 24/7 streaming of your memories into a server, allowing for seamless backup in the event of death/disease/maiming.

In an absolute sense, the restored backup/clone is not "you," and the franchise delves a lot into identity crises, the handling of concurrent instances of you, the loss/gain of identity even through death, and what it means to even be a person if you can just put your mind into a different body.

But, it got me thinking - some people would probably have an identity crisis knowing that they were 'just a copy.' Me, personally, I think I'd be happy with getting to exist at all.
 
A question for the thread; I've had a few people I know IRL who enjoy reading but aren't familiar with Worm express interest in this. Does anyone know of a good summary of the setting and important characters, so they wouldn't be completely lost? Obviously there's the wiki if they feel like looking anything in particular up, but just handing them a wiki link seems a bit too sink or swim.
 
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