Right, it's 8 am and I didn't sleep the night, so I'm blacking out and hoping that someone else picks up the cause of not going to Spain. Still, here's something I remembered, before I fall asleep.
Also, other than Rome or province, a third possibility exists - Marius fights Mithridates (note: I find it a bit funny that supposed "last breath of free Asia" as it was called in one of the updates, is actually only the First of Mithridatic wars. A rather long breath, that was), wins, but suffers casualties heavy enough that he requests the VI as reinforcements. There we would really have a chance to affect the civil war.
I guess Mithridates could also just straight up win against everyone and invade Greece again. Now that would be a funny way for history to go.
Here's two options of what could happen and where we would most probably get moved, should we stay with the Legion. In my opinion, both options are more interesting than going to Spain, and would indeed offer us plenty of opportunities for both glory and importance to the fate of Rome. Of course, like Telamon himself said, his post could be nothing but lies, but I do not think he would really tease us like so, if there wasn't some basis to his joke in the actual rolls.
No, not really. While I also didn't vote to have Scaevola as our mentor and wanted to have Sertorius initially as our Patron, that didn't happen and we have Scaevola to thank for a lot of our successes. It is his influence which gave us the position of Broad Striped Tribune, and if we choose to go with Sertorius right now it would be a betrayal to the man no matter if we try to talk with him about the issue. For even if we can explain ourselves to him, the optics of this will be clear to everyone else around us that we are abandoning one Patron in favor of another one, and that means we will be burning bridges.
I really don't have time to engage in a proper argument, unfortunately, but I can quickly list my main reasons for wanting to reject gallivanting off to Spain with Sertorius.
1 - We would be quite publicly slapping Scaevola in the face. He has done Atellus a number of favours, and it was only under his auspices that Atellus became a broad-striped tribune and thus came to the attention of Sertorius in the first place. Insulting him like this (and no, telling him face-to-face does not really mitigate the offence) seems a poor way to repay him, in my view.
2 - We would (most likely) be abandoning our sisters. They will not be in a good position if and when whoever wins the war in the east decides that Sertorius is a threat, and there will be no one to intercede for them in Rome.
3 - Going to Spain does not gain us more agency. It means that for the foreseeable future of the quest, our allies, our enemies, and our options will be dictated by Sertorius. (All our links to the optimates will be gone, for instance, with very little hope of recovery.)
4 - Going to Spain is essentially choosing to mitigate short-term risk and uncertainty by massively spiking medium- and long-term risk. Sertorius almost certainly can unite the Iberian peninsula... at which point he will most likely be facing the entire rest of the Mediterranean, meaning the enemy will have vastly superior reserves of wealth and manpower and better strategic depth. (As I strongly suspect the comparison will be made again, this is not the same as Caesar's position prior to his civil war, and even in his case a betting man would have put his money on a Pompeian victory. It took massive luck, incredible generalship, and no small amount of incompetence on the part of his adversaries for things to play out as they did.)
5 - I personally find it more boring, as it removes us from half the fun of a Republican Roman quest - the great game of the forum and the senate house, the politicking and the factions, dancing on the knife's edge between victory and disaster.
Maybe we could talk them into it? Convincing them that Rome conquering them within a lifetime is inevetable but if they willingly join now they can get great concessions would be pretty hype. Would also get Atellus a hell of a rep to talk a land into joining Rome with mere words.
-[X] Write-In: Discipline. It is said soldiers ignored Sertorius and his officers' commands to cease during the sack. There must be a punishment for such insubordination. You have the pay of all men who ignored orders heavily docked. Gold speaks louder than blood.
-[X] Write-In: Memorial. Have a stone monument erected outside the ruins of Nola, with an inscription in large letters, high enough off the ground that a man cannot easily reach it. "Here stood the city of Nola, spurning the outstretched hand of Rome. Here came the sword of Rome, in the year of Flaccus and Marius. Here fell the city of Nola."
-[X] The Cult of Mars: You attempt to solidify your small cult, turning it into an organization which may survive the transition from military life to civilian. Having brothers bound by bonds deeper than blood in the killing fields of the Senate may prove useful.
-[X] Expand Journal: You begin expanding your journal to include more than strictly military matters, such as political happenings or philosophical musings.
-[X] Make Connections: Ever aloof and arrogant, the aristocrats of the equtii, the knights of Rome, have come to respect you as a leader to look up to over the course of this campaign. You could try to make some deeper connections that might serve you well in the city.
If we do go with Sertorius, which I'm for, I have wonders on how we'll advance while we're in Hispania, what could we do there that could give us good experience, perhaps it could give us the opportunity to speak to our dear old dad's old Legion, would be nice to read about.
If we do go with Sertorius, which I'm for, I have wonders on how we'll advance while we're in Hispania, what could we do there that could give us good experience, perhaps it could give us the opportunity to speak to our dear old dad's old Legion, would be nice to read about.
Seeing as the vote is still tied after I had a good night sleep, I will tell you about my worst possible outcome this turn: Going to Hispania with a Legion of Marian Veterans that dislike us for being a Patrician and affiliated with the Optimates.
I feel a lot of our long term planning during the Samnite Campaign was influenced by the thought, that we are going to stick with the Legio VI for ten years. So it is also worth remembering that accepting Seratorius' offer is the option that has a chance of losing us our burgeoning powerbase.
If Seratorius botches his roll and fails to bring the the 6th to Hispania, then we effectively waste ...
... our work on Rufus' military skills, the other tribunes and the cult of Mars.
... actions spend on "taming" the Gauls, keeping discipline and cohort training.
... the time used to establish a very good reputation with the legionaries in general and good rapport with the officiers (Mercator & Pompolussa).
If Quixotic ends up taking the win here, then I seriously hope that Seratorius improved his dice luck after the Sack of Nola.
Yyyeah.
I would want to go to Spain more. But I don't want to backstab Scaevola like this. I know that Roman politics are ruthless as all hell, but still...
Yyyeah.
I would want to go to Spain more. But I don't want to backstab Scaevola like this. I know that Roman politics are ruthless as all hell, but still...
Yeah, if there was a way for us to not so publicly appear to flip sides and seemingly abandon Scaevola as our patron, someone whose connections allowed us to keep in contact with people like Cicero, I would jump at the chance to go to Spain with Sertorius, but as that isn't a choice I want to at least be loyal to someone who has helped us a lot. Assuming he doesn't die like he does OTL, who knows what can happen with Scaevola still in the game.
Yeah, if there was a way for us to not so publicly appear to flip sides and seemingly abandon Scaevola as our patron, someone whose connections allowed us to keep in contact with people like Cicero, I would jump at the chance to go to Spain with Sertorius, but as that isn't a choice I want to at least be loyal to someone who has helped us a lot. Assuming he doesn't die like he does OTL, who knows what can happen with Scaevola still in the game.
Shit.
Otoh it is probably normal for Roman politics to change patrons in such a way...and it is not like we set out to hurt him afterwards?
Plus I am not sure what can we achieve within Rome; feels like Hispania holds more promise of something cool and new, while Rome involves...well, loads of Roman political backstabbery.
IMO, the reason why I like the going to Hispania is that it'll play to our strengths, Rome is the biggest snake pit in the ancient world alongside the Imperial Court in China, we're pretty out of our depth there, while in Hispania, we are gonna go in a pretty receptive environment, we'll likely be interacting with our Dad's old legion, we're being tutored by one of his best friends, and according to Telamon, the name Atellus carries a lot of weight in Hispania, seems more receptive us, imo.
I should probably try my hand at advocating Stay the Course but I am not going to relitigate the arguments everyone else - for or against - has made, particularly considering others are more succinct than myself in delivering them.
Instead, let us turn specifically to the matter noted in the option to go to Spain. The matter of spurning Scaevola as a disadvantage looks very much cut and dry, until one involves the perennial blindspot for Questers.
The topic of religion. Case in point, when Lucius' Character Sheet was posted, no one remarked on the fact that apparently dear old dad made pleas to the near-dead old gods of Carthage to ensure that a Legendary curse did not pass on to Atellus.
The Punic Curse: [LEGENDARY]: In days gone by, your ancestors led Rome to break her ancient oaths against Carthage and sack the city of Hannibal. It is said the gods of dead Qart-Hadesh have harbored a hatred for you and yours ever since, hounding your bloodline across the years. It destroyed your grandfather and your father. It has nearly destroyed you. It will not destroy your son. In your time in North Africa, you sailed to the ruin of Carthago. There among the ancient stones, you made a plea to the ghosts of gods that were not Roman. You hope in your heart it will keep him safe.
In this matter then, perhaps we should remember that we are not just spurning Quintus Mucius Scaevola, the second/third most powerful and influential optimate alive, we are also spurning Quintus Mucius Scaevola, the Pontifex Maximus, the high priest who has the Gods - Jupiter Rex chief amongst them - as his patrons and masters. In the same manner where we seek the help of patrons and those higher than us, Scaevola might be sufficiently miffed that he turns to his higher patrons.
Lucius stopped the Punic Curse that ruined his bloodline. Let's not potentially start a Dei Consentes Curse on ours.
Yeah, if there was a way for us to not so publicly appear to flip sides and seemingly abandon Scaevola as our patron, someone whose connections allowed us to keep in contact with people like Cicero, I would jump at the chance to go to Spain with Sertorius, but as that isn't a choice I want to at least be loyal to someone who has helped us a lot. Assuming he doesn't die like he does OTL, who knows what can happen with Scaevola still in the game.
I seem to recall something about us training a personal group of soldiers to act as a bodyguard for Scaevola and protect him from attacks so as far as I understand it, he's at least better protected than in the original timeline. Circumstances have also changed a lot so who knows what will happen.
In the wake of Marius' illness and miraculous return, Scaevola's power is more unsure than ever before. In order to shore up his foundering powebase, he asks you to recruit and train a new batch of guards for the Temple of the Vestal Virgins. While the Virgins themselves are already adequately protected, Scaevola, as Pontifex, is one of the only men allowed to remain in the Temple indefinitely -- making it the ultimate refuge if the Marians finally overcome tradition and honor enough to seek his head. The men you are training, you would guess, will serve as his last line of defense should all else fail. It is a sign of the state of things in Rome, you reflect, that even a man who has built his life on the backs of tradition and decorum must make contingencies that rely on both of them crumbling.
You manage to rally together twenty-odd men with skilled pasts and good references. Many of them are former legionnaires, and you trim through the selections for those who seem rash, quick to anger, or those who simply don't seem like a good fit to be standing watch over virgins day and night. After careful selection, you come away with a group of men most cohorts in the legions would be envious of, with enough skill and battle experience between them to rival a hundred legionnaires.
Perhaps it is their knowledge and skill which makes training them such a difficult prospect, then. Though you are well-spoken enough and as skilled in martial matters as any Tribune, whipping them into shape is stubbornly difficult. You have to try multiple tacks before you find something that sticks and force them into a training regimen. A part of you understands that this is merely a symptom of your inexperience -- the only men you've ever commanded before this were the guards at your father's estate, and they had to snap to your command. Finally, however, you think you've whipped them into shape, even if they're not as well-drilled as you might have liked.
Plus I am not sure what can we achieve within Rome; feels like Hispania holds more promise of something cool and new, while Rome involves...well, loads of Roman political backstabbery.
Roman backstabbery is both cool and new, though. We practically didn't have any, beyond Pompey and his conspiracy. But even beyond that, staying close to Rome is only one of the possibilities, and I don't think it's the most likely one - we could get moved with the legion in a lot of places, and there would be a lot new and cool things and opportunities everywhere. Especially if it's the heart of the civil war.
Shit.
Otoh it is probably normal for Roman politics to change patrons in such a way...and it is not like we set out to hurt him afterwards?
Plus I am not sure what can we achieve within Rome; feels like Hispania holds more promise of something cool and new, while Rome involves...well, loads of Roman political backstabbery.
I don't changing patrons would be that easy, especially as very few would be able to, and it's generally hard to find powerful patrons in the first place.
As for what Scaevola would feel, the vote makes it rather clear what will happen if we do so:
[] Accept Sertorius' offer. Scaevola will doubtless be angered by your implicit rejection of his patronage, but you will gain as a mentor a man who learned at the feet of Marius himself. You will fight in the dusky fields of Spain where your father earned his glory and his name, and learn of war at the feet of a master. Hannibal, Scipio, Sertorius -- some of Rome's most beloved and hated names have arisen in Spain. Might you follow in their footsteps?
So even if we may not have set out to intentionally hurt him politically here, and are trying to mitigate it through speaking with him, it doesn't matter as our rejection of his patronage would be public, thus incurring his anger here.
Furthermore, as has been mentioned before, if we don't go with Sertorius that doesn't mean we're going to be stuck in Rome. It's most likely that we will be deployed to wherever the VI ends up going, which could be anywhere from Italia to even joining Marius in the East.
Either way, in my opinion, it's not worth burning bridges with Scaevola when he's still around and we still have options. It's not like we can't go to Sertorius later if Sulla wins in the East, as he will likely still be around.
I seem to recall something about us training a personal group of soldiers to act as a bodyguard for Scaevola and protect him from attacks so as far as I understand it, he's at least better protected than in the original timeline. Circumstances have also changed a lot so who knows what will happen.
That's true, we did train those bodyguards for the Priestesses, but I'm not entirely sure that the dozen of them will be able to stop a mob from killing him if they really are that motivated. If we are able to prevent Scaevola's death, all the better.
Oh, and about that, the relationships between clients and patrons are actually very important in Rome, and while they, like everything else, could be and were discarded in the chaos and decay of Late Republic, it is no small thing. Patron is considered to be your second father, the man you should immensely respect and help, for he is much more capable and busy than you, but will still use his power and influence to see you advance and succeed. Changing him for another is practically betraying your family, far from something easily accepted.
It's one of those weird votes where the players themselves have more power than Atellus does in order to allow the conceit of choice. Those will get rarer as time goes on, but I figured I shouldn't send you all off to Spain without a choice in the matter.
I hope they get rarer sooner rather than later. It feels wrong to have the main character arbitrarily not be the subject of the whims of Fate and the Gods that rule the lives of everyone else. I would've greatly preferred you rolling to see if Sertorius could get the Legion instead of leaving it up to player choice.
Sertorius will push for the Sixth in-story regardless of your decision, but I'll only actually roll for it if you say yes. If not, he's automatically shot down and given a different set of legions to take Spain.
Honestly, the fact that this is apparently an Out Of Character vote rather than an In-Character decision that Atellus makes for himself renders the idea that we're "betraying Scaevola" incomprehensible to me. Going to Spain only means that we're doing our duty as a Tribune of the Sixth Legion, to go where commanded to fight the enemies of Rome.
How is that a betrayal? Does Scaevola expect us to overrule the decisions of high command and make the Sixth go where we please? It makes no sense to me, can anyone explain how it's supposed to work?
I hope they get rarer sooner rather than later. It feels wrong to have the main character arbitrarily not be the subject of the whims of Fate and the Gods that rule the lives of everyone else. I would've greatly preferred you rolling to see if Sertorius could get the Legion instead of leaving it up to player choice.
I guess you could say that if we refuse his offer, Sertorius wouldn't push for the VI hard enough to make it an actual possibility, due to it costing a lot of political capital that he wouldn't want to spend, especially in addition to disregarding our decision.
Honestly, the fact that this is apparently an Out Of Character vote rather than an In-Character decision that Atellus makes for himself renders the idea that we're "betraying Scaevola" incomprehensible to me. Going to Spain only means that we're doing our duty as a Tribune of the Sixth Legion, to go where commanded to fight the enemies of Rome.
How is that a betrayal? Does Scaevola expect us to overrule the decisions of high command and make the Sixth go where we please? It makes no sense to me, can anyone explain how it's supposed to work?
I am not sure exactly what do you not understand. If we choose to go to Spain, we will go there there regardless of whether Sertorius succeeds to get the VI assigned there, and in any case, we would be receiving close mentorship that would make it obvious that we choose him as patron. And even beyond that, Quixotic Quest plan has a talk with Scaveola for a purpose of explaining that we will be changing patrons, so it's not like there's a chance he wouldn't know.
