Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome

Temes1066 · Jul 21, 2019

Caesar said:
Quintus Lutatius Catulus
Patrician

Son of the Catulus who killed himself to avoid prosecution by Gratidianus. Brother in law of Hortensius. Later consul, censor, princeps senatus, and a noted enemy of Caesar. At the moment, he's probably keeping his head down in Rome. He became a pontifex at some point, so we may have met him. Not outrageously talented by the (admittedly obscenely high) standards of the late Republic, but diligent.

Caesar said:
Lucius Sergius Catalina
Patrician

Last scion of an old patrician line, scandal follows Lucius Sergius like a cloud of perfume. He's the brother-in-law of Gratidianus, and OTL murdered him in rather brutal fashion. At various points he was also accused of murdering his own son and of seducing a Vestal. Personally charming and immensely courageous, Lucius Sergius is currently affiliated with the optimates, but as his OTL career shows, he has no problem playing to the mob.

So these two plus Quintus Metellus Scipo, Marcus Valerius Messalla and Quintus Metellus Celer are a part of a mini-faction know as the Catilinarians.

globalwarmth · Jul 21, 2019

[] Gather Support: Sertorius may be gone, but you are still here. You reassure the men's worries and fears, and promise that if nothing else, you yourself will lead them to glory and wealth in the hills of Asia.

gather all the support! then play wait and see

[] Theo: A young Greek with happy eyes, Theo was a slave, then a gladiator until he lost use of his right arm. Useless as a fighter or a worker, he was tossed aside to die, but instead came to your father's attention due to his particular skill with people. To put it simply, one cannot help but be charmed by him, from the shine of his teeth to the twinkle in his eye. Your father would send him to the markets to buy a cartful of grain, and the Greek would return grinning with ten for the same price. The servants skip to do his word, if only because disappointing him would be like pissing in the eye of the sun itself, and he is capable of winning a smile from even the most dour and grim-faced of men.

greek prettyboy for the greek campaign. we need more training in the soft side of life as well.

and [] Glaber

because Big

Telamon · Jul 21, 2019

globalwarmth said:
[] Gather Support: Sertorius may be gone, but you are still here. You reassure the men's worries and fears, and promise that if nothing else, you yourself will lead them to glory and wealth in the hills of Asia.

gather all the support! then play wait and see

[] Theo: A young Greek with happy eyes, Theo was a slave, then a gladiator until he lost use of his right arm. Useless as a fighter or a worker, he was tossed aside to die, but instead came to your father's attention due to his particular skill with people. To put it simply, one cannot help but be charmed by him, from the shine of his teeth to the twinkle in his eye. Your father would send him to the markets to buy a cartful of grain, and the Greek would return grinning with ten for the same price. The servants skip to do his word, if only because disappointing him would be like pissing in the eye of the sun itself, and he is capable of winning a smile from even the most dour and grim-faced of men.

greek prettyboy for the greek campaign. we need more training in the soft side of life as well.

and [] Glaber

because Big

Oop, that was my mistake — you can only take one servant with you, because of reasons. My bad, formatting error.

Bullmoose · Jul 21, 2019

Well I hope things turn out better for Sertorius than they did in history. They just might if we can do good things on the east.

But regardless, I think we should drum up support for ourselves from the VI and try to court our new legate. Bring Theo, our charming servant. He can at the very least ingratiate himself with Scipio's entourage.

The legion will be loyal to us and we loyal to scipio( with the option left open to betray him if it need be).

Chaos Blade · Jul 21, 2019

And to think we could be in Spain... well away from Sulla and Marius...

I do think we need to make sure the legion is loyal to us, first and foremost. our loyalty can go were it needs to, and given how pants we are at subterfuge we should play it cool, afterwads? is afterwards, to be hoenst many things could happen, Sulla could die, Marius could die, Cinna could die, all of them in an orgy of blood and causality could die (if only...)

Simon_Jester · Jul 21, 2019

Notcreative said:
I wasn't expecting to like catiline nearly as much as i found myself liking him

Oh don't get me wrong, he's likeable, he's just a terrible person.

Now, REACTIONPOOOST!

Telamon said:
He grins. "Scaevola taught you well, to turn your tongue so. I knew I had cause to trust my instincts. I heard you speak in the Forum last year, and I thought to myself -- ah, here is a leader, not a follower. Rome needs more men like us, don't you think?"

"I might agree with that, sir, had I any idea who you are."

Well played.

You trail behind the young aristocrat as he flitters through the party, pointing out this noble and that young prospect. The optimate on the couch adored by slaves is, you learn, Quintus Metellus Scipo, among the last living descendants of the great Scipio Africanus, victor over Hannibal. One of the dancing slaves is no slave at all, but Marcus Valerius Messalla, the young brother-in-law to Sulla himself. The young man dandling a slave on his lap is none other than Quintus Metellus Celer, a close friend of Catiline's who lost his run for the tribunate to your own friend Rufus. As the night wears on, you are introduced personally to all of these men -- what is more, you drink with them, toast with them, sing drunkenly with them.

If I've IDed Quintus Metellus Scipio rightly, he's not of any great note presently apart from his ancstry.

Marcus Valerius Messalla is, well, Sulla's brother-in-law.

Quintus Metellus Celer's half-sister, Mucia Tertia, is Scaevola's daughter; they have the same mother, and Celer was born to their mother's first marriage.

After gathering yourself for a moment and remembering how words work, you manage to ask him why. Why invite you to this party against the wishes of the host? Why introduce you to all of his friends? Why?

Catiline inspects his empty amphora for a moment, then looks up at you. "Because," he shrugs. "You're different."

Faction Uncovered:
The Catilinarians: Several young and influental aristocrats who tie strongly to neither Marius' camp nor Sulla's have rallied under the influence --though not, strictly, leadership-- of the charismatic and rogueish Lucius Sergius Catalina, a young optimate from a once-great Senatorial family. Their patron is Quintus Lutiatus Catulus, a powerful optimate and diehard Sullan.

Hm.

Potentially VERY useful connections to have if we want to convince Sulla not to kill us. One big thing to remember about the optimates is that they're all pretty tightly related and interrelated; think the Three Degrees of Marcus Bacon or whatever you want to call it.

Obviously this faction's going to end in tears sooner or later; Catalina is mad, bad, and dangerous to know. Historically he led a conspiracy to take over the Republic.

On the one hand, we've already sold out a conspiracy by young optimates, albeit to the optimates' own faction leaders.

...You know, it's entirely possible that some of the Catilinarians are the same men who were part of Pompey's conspiracy. This could get complicated.

Afterwards, you join your patron for a quiet conversation over a few cups of wine. Rome, Scaevola, mourns, is blinded by flash and pomp without substance. The empty triumphs of Cinna and the Marians have nonetheless won them the hearts of the common people, and where the Pontifex could walk in the street and be met with respect, he must now travel with armed guards to protect him from the thronging mob. Cinna's position has become more stable over the last year, and with the younger Marius a puppet and his co-consul a flaking moderate, he has become the natural center of Marian power in Rome. Scaevola and the other optimates are only suffered to live because Cinna's strong position does not require their deaths. Should the war in the east turn sour, or Cinna's position begin to crumble, many of the men you ate with tonight may find their deaths in the dark.

Ironically, Marius winning might actually be safer for the optimates than Sulla winning, in that when Marius finally dies, Cinna will only need to kill SOME of them.

Nonetheless, you take up this time to bring up the matter of Himatus and the Pentri, to which the old jurist reacts with a faint air of something that might be admiration. That you have managed to gather an entire people into your debt at such a young age is something to be admired, and word of your speech to them has reached even Rome, where Scaevola has enjoyed some renown as a teacher because of it. His association with you pays more dividends than he has imagined, and so he will attempt to bend Cinna's iron ear to have their taxes alleviated for a time. Your other promises may be more difficult, but even Cinna will see the sense in not taxing a war-torn area into the dirt.

Well, hopefully.

Yay!

Well, we did our best. There's that.

"Brother!"

Your sister crashes into you with such force that she nearly bowls you over. Her tiny arms wrap around yours with such strength that you think she might truly squeeze the life from your lungs.

Worth remembering, she's a feisty one.

"As well as could be expected. I took the liberty of hiring a few guards, but it seems they were not needed -- your relationship with Scaevola has not invited as many enemies as I feared."

Phew! But good to know Prosperina was on top of that.

Pick One
[] The Marians: You wish to know if Cinna or his allies are planning anything before they do it, and to receive updates on their moves and strategies, that you might better plan your own actions in accordance with what they might do. (-10 Talents)
[] The Sullans: You tell Proserpina to keep an eye on the activities of the Sullan partisans still in Rome. Though greatly diminished in power, they still have enough influence to make plays that could upset the delicate balance of power in Rome. (-7 Talents)
[] The Catilinarians: Proserpina is surprised when you ask her to extend her network to keep an eye on Catiline and his band of disaffected youths. Young men barely your age or older, they have little real power in Rome, but you are still concerned that they might make a move which could influence your decisions. (-4 Talents)

Hm. I think we can predict the Marians pretty well, especially if we don't do anything that specifically double-crosses them. I'm more worried about the Sullans and the Catilinarians.

I'm tempted to vote for the Catilinarians. Some of these are men to watch, and knowing their secrets may prove important. On the other hand, the Sullans as a whole are also important men to watch, and much more influential.

The celebrations continue for several more days, in predictable enough fashion. You watch gladiators butcher one another in the teeming sands of the arena, and make small-talk with more than a few Senators eager to please Sertorius by offering you congratulations on your victory. Perhaps the most powerful of these well-wishers is Marcus Gratidianus, a powerful praetor whose widespread currency reforms had made him beloved in Rome.

OOC NOTE: Gratidianus died horribly OTL; this is a high-ranking Marian who is so dead if Sulla wins the civil war.

Indeed, you meet him when he arrives at the arenas for a game in his own honor, and grants you a seat near his own central one. The common folk cheer louder for him than for the gladiators, and you mark him in your mind as a man to be wary of. Nothing is so dangerous in Rome as a man beloved by the people.

They actually have little idols of him in the streets. He's really popular for those currency reforms.

Almost as soon as the new year breaks, news arrives from the East of blackest treachery. The Marian legate Lucius Flaccus, brother to the Consul, has been murdered by his own legion, the IX, who were long discontented with his command. One half of the legion, led by the tribune Gaius Flavius Fimbria, has fled into the south of Asia, fearing deadly reprisal from Marius, and some say they have pledged loyalty to Sulla. The other, greater part, led by the officer Lucius Magnia, has sworn service to the Pontic King Mithridates in exchange for protection.

Oh snap that could have been OUR legion.

But wow, that's a big kick in the shorts for Marius. He's gonna need reinforcements.

Something like this happened to Flaccus historically, too.

That said, I may be confused. OTL, Fimbria was a legate and Flaccus was a governor... and Fimbria was a pretty hardcore Marian, while there are hints that Flaccus was more conciliatory. Or so Wikipedia claims anyway.

Thus emboldened and reinforced, Mithridates has slammed into the armies of Marius, driving him from his position in Asia and forcing him back into Roman-held Bithnya. In reaction to the news, many towns and cities conquered by Marius have risen up yet again across the breadth of Asia, with one name on their tongues: Mithridates. Sulla, still facing off with Mithridates' general Archaelaus in Greece, cannot capitalize on this Marian defeat, but it is only a matter of time until he turns his sights again to Rome.

Hmm. As in, Sulla decides to march on Rome while Marius is busy dealing with Mithridates, or as in, Sulla decides to jump Marius first? Hard to say...

The reaction in Rome is immediate -- and violent. Fimbria's brother, Marcus Flavius, is dragged from the family home and torn to shreds in the streets by a maddened mob. Pieces of him surface for weeks after. Many optimates are out-and-out murdered in their homes, and those who are not flee into hiding or withdraw from the public eye. With Sertorius and two legions gone to Spain, Cinna is forced to reestablish order with gangs of armed men prowling the streets, and with Rome boiling over, cannot afford even the pretense of democracy. He is unanimously and illegally re-elected Consul alongside the prominent Marian Lucius Cornelius Scipio Asiaticus, descended from the younger brother of the more famed Scipio Africanus.

Well shit. See, this is kind of the problem with the Marians; they have to keep killing Roman noblemen every time anything goes wrong, or they risk losing power entirely.

To quell the people's fury, Asiaticus has been given command of the VI legion and co-imperium over Asia with Marius. He will sail east, defeat the traitor Fimbria, and aid Marius in besting the Pontic King Mithridates Eupator.

The Year Of Cinna and Asiaticus has begun, and the Sixth Legion has joined the Mithridatic Wars.

The heavens are still and far;
But, not unheard of awful Jove,
The sighing of the island slave
Was answered, when the Ægean wave
The keels of Mithridates clove,
And the vines shriveled in the breath of war.

Campaign Begun: The Mithridatic Wars (84 BC -- ???)
Legion Assigned: Legio VI Gradivius
Legion Commander: Lucius Cornelius Scipio Asiaticus, Consul of Rome
Position: Tribunus Laticlavus, Broad-Striped Tribune
Legion Nickname: LEGIO VI GRADIVIUS -- The Sixth Legion, Blessed-By-Mars.

Oh, and you thought Gemino was annoying.

Well, at least Mithridates isn't ONLY our problem. He's everybody's problem. Except possibly Visella Tertia, to whom he is husbando.

She's priestess of a poison goddess! He's legendary for his poison resistance! TOGETHER, THEY FIGHT ROME!

I ship it.

VOTING

Friends In Far Places
The Sixth Legion now sails across the seas to distant Asia, where treachery and betrayal have left the Marian position weaker than ever before. Freshly blooded off the Samnite Wars, they must now march to defeat the traitor Fimbria and aid Marius in beating back the greatest foe Rome has seen since the days of Hannibal: the Pontic King Mithridates Eupator. With Tercerus, your loyal mentor and tutor, too old for such travel, you must select another member of your household to take with you.
Pick two.

[] Glaber: Nicknamed Glaber, or 'the bald', for his lack of hair, this tall, dark-skinned Carthaginian was a mercenary from Africa who fought for Rome in Spain. He performed so well as your father's bodyguard that he brought him back with him to Rome, where he saved his life on more than one occasion. His ebony skin and bald pate draw many eyes, and, it seems, blades. His lanky body is riddled with faded scars, a testament to his ability as a fighter, and as a bodyguard. He has no great skill in subtlety, but, one might argue, he has no need of it, for you have never met a man who could best Glaber in a fight and walk away on both legs. He aches to return to the field of war, and seems almost jubilant at the prospect of cutting down any man who attempts harm on your person.

[] Theo: A young Greek with happy eyes, Theo was a slave, then a gladiator until he lost use of his right arm. Useless as a fighter or a worker, he was tossed aside to die, but instead came to your father's attention due to his particular skill with people. To put it simply, one cannot help but be charmed by him, from the shine of his teeth to the twinkle in his eye. Your father would send him to the markets to buy a cartful of grain, and the Greek would return grinning with ten for the same price. The servants skip to do his word, if only because disappointing him would be like pissing in the eye of the sun itself, and he is capable of winning a smile from even the most dour and grim-faced of men.

[] Carnigaeus: Some twenty-eight years of age, Carnigaeus was a Roman legionnaire in his youth, and fought in the Social Wars. Now, he sells his services as a 'man of swords', and was hired by Proserpina to train your household guards. A cold man with a broken nose and a mass of scar tissue where his eye should be, Carnigaeus volunteered to accompany you in Tercerus' stead. It has been too long, he says, since he marched with the legions and tasted of battle.

Er, are we picking one or two?

Nevermind, one.

Hm. I think we need Theo, because we're going to need popularity very badly. Also, Theo is Greek, and we need to speak Greek fluently.

Rudderless
The men loved Sertorius. He was their hero, their champion, their idol. To serve under a bearer of the Grass Crown was more than an honor, it was a privilege. And now he is gone to Hispania without them, and they are left almost rudderless. They do not know this man Asiaticus, whom, though a good speaker, is no soldier. They still respect you though, and may heed your words of direction.
Pick one

[] Loyalty: You urge the men to fall in line behind Scipio Asiaticus. He is of ancient lineage and mighty blood, and is consul of Rome besides. There is glory enough to be won under him, and at his side. The consul may well hear of your efforts on his behalf.

[] Foment Discord: You share in their pain, lamenting the loss of so great a leader as Sertorius, the hero of the Celtiberian Wars. This Asiaticus may bear the name of Scipio, but what battles has he won? He was humiliated during the Social War -- why should a legion named after Mars follow one so dishonored?

[] Gather Support: Sertorius may be gone, but you are still here. You reassure the men's worries and fears, and promise that if nothing else, you yourself will lead them to glory and wealth in the hills of Asia.

Hm. If we want to switch sides, ditch Sertorius, and go full Sullan/optimates, Foment Discord is definitely our best bet. But this will massively piss off Scipio and he IS a consul, and if he complains to Cinna about us, we are FUCKED if we return to Rome while Cinna is still in power. Also, Marius isn't dead yet (we think), and he's going to be very alert to the possibility of anyone splitting and stealing yet another of his legions.

If we want to actually make Marius more likely to win, Loyalty is a good choice. Even if Sulla wins, this approach will probably not make us MORE likely to die, IMO.

If we want to stay on the fence, Gather Support is definitely an option- but we should be careful not to be seen as a threat by Marius and to try to avoid clashing openly with Scipio.

Personal:
The march to the ports and the subsequent journey overseas to Asia is long and uneventful. The duties of a tribune have become almost second nature to you now, and so you find yourself with more than a little time left for your own desires and wishes. What do you pursue during the journey?
Pick three

[] Write Home: With such long travel times, anything you write will take a long time to arrive. However, that does not mean you cannot write. You write to... (response will arrive in 2-3 turns)
--[] Scaevola
--[] Cicero
--[] Atticus
--[] Proserpina
--[] Catiline
--[] Volero

Atticus knows Greece and may have useful information to share. Getting letters from Catiline could be interesting and might give us clues and information.

[] The Consul: You attempt to strike up a conversation with the new-made Consul, Scipio Asiaticus. Famed back in Rome as an orator and a jurist, he may well provide good conversation, though you are under no illusions about making as deep a connection as you did with Sertorius, who loved your father.

Probably a good idea if we want to work with this guy. Or against him. Either way.

[] The Scipians: Unlike Sertorius, who traveled with a single slave, Scipio has brought along a veritable entourage of slaves, clients, friends, and cronies. These Scipians are largely plebian men of all stripes, and you attempt to integrate yourselves with them in order to learn something more of their master.

Probably a good idea, but maybe next turn.

[] Seafaring: Romans are not mariners. However, by necessity, generals of the land are sometimes forced to become generals of the sea. You speak with the officers and crewmembers of the ships ferrying your legion overseas, hoping to learn something useful.

Definitely an appealing idea (this is probably a skill we have Rank 0 in), but so much else to do.

[] Si Vis Pacem: You begin brushing up on your Greek, in ancticipation of subjugating Greek towns and villages in Asia.

Definitely this. Oratory and politics are among our best skills, and the less barbaric we seem to the Hellenes, the better.

[] Para Bellum: You begin studying the campaigns against the Macedonians and the Greeks over a century ago, hoping to learn more about Greek tactics, that you might counter them better.
[] Res Publica: You study the formations of your own legions, the way Romans fight. After all, you may soon be doing war with Romans -- and what is more Roman than that?

Tempting. Not sure we should, with all else that is going on. On the other hand, fighting another legion is going to be tough. Also, HAHAHAHA.

[] The Cult: You call together the cult of Mars, hoping to influence the officers and tribunes within towards your viewpoint on the new consul. (Depends on your choice for the Rudderless vote)

This is an amplifier for our "Rudderless" action, if we want to pursue a strategy that emphasizes it heavily.

[] Fortune's Favor: After camp is made for the night, several of the officers, including Carcellus, Pompolussa, and Mercator, gather to gamble and game. They have extended you an invitation.

This might be a very good idea. The invitation suggests that they have something they want to discuss with us.

[] Study: You study the campaigns of Marius in Africa, hoping to learn something about defeating a hostile kingdom while protecting Roman clients.

IN-ter-esting. And who knows, we may meet Marius ourselves, and being able to talk to him about one of his old campaigns might earn us some approval?

Simon_Jester · Jul 21, 2019

triumph8w said:
I voted to go to Spain but man i do not regret that Stay the course won. Shit just got interesting and Atellus is already on his second campaign.

To be fair, if we'd gone to Spain we'd also be on our second campaign.

The catch is that we'd be powerless to affect events in Asia, and Marius is in trouble, which risks us winding up facing exactly the chain of events that historically led to the Sertorian War and Sertorius' death.

So, plan drafts!

[] Plan Secret Sullan
-[] The Marians (-10 Talents)
-[] Theo
-[] Foment Discord
-[] Si Vis Pacem
-[] The Cult
-[] Brotherhood

This plan minimizes our risk of being horribly killed by Sulla, by doing everything in our power to help him win the civil war. We gather intelligence for him in Rome (surely he has his own network but help helps, and many of his supporters are being watched by the Marians already). And, importantly, we prepare to flip the Sixth Legion. By building up our own personal brand among the legionnaires and raising discontent with the consul,

The downside is that while this plan minimizes our risk of being horribly killed by Sulla, it maximizes our risk of being horribly killed by the Marians. They'll be wary of further betrayals, and many of the legionnaires and officers are themselves Marians. This plan is high-risk. But it's got a high reward potential if it gets us in with Sulla and helps him win the civil war. And if successful, it greatly secures our position against Pompey, because we'll have effectively secured a legion that is primarily loyal to ourselves, aligned ourselves with Sulla, and given Sulla a strong incentive NOT to just casually give Pompey our head on a plate.

[Of course, the Marians will be super desperate and likely to court Pompey themselves, so who knows what might happen, plus Sertorius may be recalled from Spain]

[] Plan Public Marian
-[] The Catilinarians (-4 Talents)
-[] Theo
-[] Loyalty
-[] Si Vis Pacem
-[] Fortune's Favor
-[] The Consul

Cinna DEFINITELY has spying on the Sullans locked down, so we might as well cultivate our networks among the rising generation (and save ourselves some money). We move to cement the legion to the new Marian commander. We probably don't need to work as hard at this. I want to take the Fortune's Favor action to make sure the core command staff of the legion are on board with this.

[] Plan Hit The Books
-[] The Catilinarians (-4 Talents)
-[] Theo
-[] Gather Support
-[] Si Vis Pacem
-[] Para Bellum
-[] Res Publica

An alternate plan, built around the idea of covering ourselves in as much glory as possible during the campaign. This is likely to net us bonuses fighting the Greeks and renegade/Sullan Romans we encounter. However, this sacrifices political advantage for pure fightiness.

Teen Spirit · Jul 21, 2019

I have no idea how late Republic Politicans didn't all die from stress induced strokes before they were fifty

Simon_Jester said:
[] Plan Hit The Books
-[] The Catilinarians (-4 Talents)
-[] Theo
-[] Gather Support
-[] Si Vis Pacem
-[] Para Bellum
-[] Res Publica

An alternate plan, built around the idea of covering ourselves in as much glory as possible during the campaign. This is likely to net us bonuses fighting the Greeks and renegade/Sullan Romans we encounter. However, this sacrifices political advantage for pure fightiness.

Honestly the lack of political advantage may in itself be a kind of advantage since it does way less of job of making us a possible target for either side if things go wrong.

Telamon · Jul 21, 2019

Teen Spirit said:
I have no idea how late Republic Politicans didn't all die from stress induced strokes before they were fifty

Or of liver failure. The average Roman male probably drank something like a liter of wine a day.

Or of bad hygiene. Have I mentioned the shared poop sponges? Because I feel like I need to mention the shared poop sponges.

(Realistically, the reason late Republican politicians didn't die of any of these things is because they were busy dying in proscriptions and civil wars and commiting suicide to avoid capture)*

*Seriously, the end of most biographies of Late Republic politicians is "...and then he bravely committed suicide to avoid capture by (insert dictator here). Inspired by his bravery, his sons made a statue of him before later commiting suicide to avoid capture."

Simon_Jester · Jul 21, 2019

Telamon said:
Or of liver failure. The average Roman male probably drank something like a liter of wine a day.

Spaced out over time that's probably not actually too bad for you. Especially since I doubt the Romans optimized for strength of the wine used for everyday drinking, compared to other parameters like sweetness.

Ghostdevil · Jul 21, 2019

Telamon said:
Or of bad hygiene. Have I mentioned the shared poop sponges? Because I feel like I need to mention the shared poop sponges.

See, whoever invented the toilet paper should go down in history as a God.

Chaos Blade · Jul 21, 2019

Simon_Jester said:
Spaced out over time that's probably not actually too bad for you. Especially since I doubt the Romans optimized for strength of the wine used for everyday drinking, compared to other parameters like sweetness.

And given the dangers of drinking water you didn't know the source of? or drinking water that's gone through lead pipes.... Wine sounds more and more like the lesser evil... unless they put it in lead decanters, because the romans did had an (un)healthy fascination with lead

Teen Spirit · Jul 21, 2019

Telamon said:
Or of liver failure. The average Roman male probably drank something like a liter of wine a day.

To be fair I'm willing to bet their wine was far more deluded then ours

*does research*

The main difference between Roman and modern wines was likely their alcohol content, as both Greek and Roman wines likely had as high as 15% or 20% ABV, compared with 10-12% or so in most modern wines.

Mother of God

Nothing suffered as much as the Roman Liver it seemed.

Bullmoose · Jul 21, 2019

Well the Romans watered down their wine. Drinking it straight as we do was not considered civilized. So it's not as bad as you might imagine.

Simon_Jester · Jul 21, 2019

Chaos Blade said:
And given the dangers of drinking water you didn't know the source of? or drinking water that's gone through lead pipes.... Wine sounds more and more like the lesser evil... unless they put it in lead decanters, because the romans did had an (un)healthy fascination with lead

The Romans would both put the wine in lead containers, and use lead compounds as artificial sweeteners.

Although there are reasons- lead is actually a VERY convenient material, very easily worked. If it weren't toxic it'd be insanely useful and we'd apply it all over the place to all of the everything, as long as weight and density weren't a factor.

Chaos Blade · Jul 21, 2019

Simon_Jester said:
The Romans would both put the wine in lead containers, and use lead compounds as artificial sweeteners.

Although there are reasons- lead is actually a VERY convenient material, very easily worked. If it weren't toxic it'd be insanely useful and we'd apply it all over the place to all of the everything, as long as weight and density weren't a factor.

I knew of the lead containers, hence my comment, and yeah it can be useful a material, but we know is toxic and that it accumulates and the way it affect us when the build up is enough is bad enough to make us steer away from lead like the plague.
The Romans didn't know this to their own detriment

Teen Spirit · Jul 21, 2019

Honestly this just furthers my conviction that Romans were just insane and insanely well organized frat bros.

Japanime · Jul 21, 2019

So...what is our actual grand plan here, now that we're actually in the heart of the action and have a chance to influence the Civil War in such a meaningful way?

Right now it seems like Sulla is the likely favorite to win the Civil War as he at least didn't lose a Legion to treachery and defection. But then again, we are serving under The Marius, and he's pulled off unlikely victories before, so it's not like we can totally count him out.

No matter which side we take politically we will have to defeat Mithridates before we find ourselves in the climax of the Civil War, but then what? What is our best scenario here and how do we even achieve it?

The Sandman · Jul 21, 2019

IIRC it turns out lead pipes are less dangerous than we'd thought, at least the Roman ones; the water around the city had enough calcium that a plaque built up within the pipes which prevented lead from leaching into the water, and the water velocity through the pipes wasn't fast enough nor the pressure high enough to scour that plaque away.

Now the other uses of lead, those did cause problems.

As far as how to navigate the beginning of the end of the Republic, I haven't a clue. Although probably removing Sulla and then turning on Cinna for the illegality of his present consulship would be the way to go. If we can keep the cycle of "general marches on Rome with his troops, installs self as ruler" from starting, we might be able to prevent the series of coups that lead to the Principate.

Telamon · Jul 21, 2019

Teen Spirit said:
Honestly this just furthers my conviction that Romans were just insane and insanely well organized frat bros.

This chart is thread canon btw.

Teen Spirit · Jul 21, 2019

Japanime said:
So...what is our actual grand plan here, now that we're actually in the heart of the action and have a chance to influence the Civil War in such a meaningful way?

Right now it seems like Sulla is the likely favorite to win the Civil War as he at least didn't lose a Legion to treachery and defection. But then again, we are serving under The Marius, and he's pulled off unlikely victories before, so it's not like we can totally count him out.

No matter which side we take politically we will have to defeat Mithridates before we find ourselves in the climax of the Civil War, but then what? What is our best scenario here and how do we even achieve it?

The question is which path is more likely to leave us alive, staying where we are now, siding with Sulla or something else entirely?

Ghostdevil · Jul 21, 2019

I want to take over as Emperor and lead Rome to its Eternal Empire!!!

Simon_Jester · Jul 21, 2019

Basically, we have multiple mutually exclusive strategies.

We can go full Sullan and try to decide the civil war in his favor by flipping the Sixth Legion to his side. This is a path to great power and saves us from a very powerful enemy, but it's risky in the short term.

We can go full Marian and do everything in our power to defeat Mithridates and Sulla for Marius. This is safe in the very short term, but there are long term risks. Marius has lots of enemies and not long to live, which is a bad combination. On the other hand, if the civil war is won by the Marians we may see actual reform of Rome along constructive lines. If we want NON-imperial Rome I think this may be the way to achieve it, because the Marians were willing to act within Roman institutions as long as they had that choice, but the successful general-coup-stagers of the future won't be.

Or we can continue to keep our heads down as a competent subordinate and rely on our connections to whichever side wins to save us from outright execution, while gaining experience and making contacts on both sides to strengthen our future play(s) for power.

The Sandman said:
As far as how to navigate the beginning of the end of the Republic, I haven't a clue. Although probably removing Sulla and then turning on Cinna for the illegality of his present consulship would be the way to go. If we can keep the cycle of "general marches on Rome with his troops, installs self as ruler" from starting, we might be able to prevent the series of coups that lead to the Principate.

The big problem there is that if we succeed in enabling the Marians to defeat Sulla, Marius still dies in a few years, and Cinna is the most powerful man in Rome- too powerful for us to remove with our cute little mini-powerbase. We're still in the position of a monkey caught in a fight between a bull and a lion; the monkey can conceivably tip the scales of the fight somehow, but there's no way the monkey gets to finish off the winner.

And... frankly, Rome desperately needs institutional reforms to function as a Mediterranean-spanning empire. The institutions of the Republic are already broken by the huge influx of wealth and power the Roman aristocracy gains, and a new administrative system cannot arise while the Senate still holds the bulk of power in Rome.

Teen Spirit · Jul 21, 2019

Telamon said:
This chart is thread canon btw.

*Putting Mycenae Greece that close to prep*

Disgraceful, absolutely freaking disgraceful.

*Begins planning Bronze Age Greece Quest I have no idea how to run just out of spite*

Also Macedonia should be Prep.

Japanime · Jul 21, 2019

Teen Spirit said:
The question is which path is more likely to leave us alive, staying where we are now, siding with Sulla or something else entirely?

Well yeah, that's the question. But the thing is, it's a little hard to tell who is set up to win the Civil War right now as there's a fog of war clouding everything. We don't know the real strength of either side, and on paper in terms of numbers I think both Marius and Sulla have around the same number of men under their command, with both likely having legendary military skills to call upon, thus making it even harder for us to determine who will win during the decisive clash.

For the most part it seems like everyone is working on the assumption that Sulla is likely going to be the inevitable victor, which is not surprising considering he did win OTL and right now he is well positioned to. The thing is, I just don't think we'll be able to effectively flip the Legion to Sulla so easily due to the Marians likely watching our Legion like a hawk after their last Legion turned traitor.

So I'm curious as to what our long term plan is here, because while it may be easy to play as the competent subordinate for now, we're going to have to make a decision sooner or later.

Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome

To Defy Gravity you must Let It Go

ruining the weather.

A corvid.

A True Aristocrat

Procrastinating Writer

Lost in Ever After

A corvid.

The Devil of Ghosts

Procrastinating Writer

Lost in Ever After

A True Aristocrat

Procrastinating Writer

Lost in Ever After

So Zetta Slowpoke

A corvid.

Lost in Ever After

The Devil of Ghosts

Lost in Ever After