Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome

[Simon_Jester]

This chart is thread canon btw.

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Where are the Goths themselves on this chart?

I want to take over as Emperor and lead Rome to its Eternal Empire!!!

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OK.

Well, in that case, we need to:

1) Survive this round of the civil war.
2) Come out on good enough terms with the winner that we can go on building a power base in Rome.
3) Use this power base to become a major player in future rounds of the civil war.
4) Win the civil wars, repeatedly, until everyone gives up out of exhaustion.

This is basically Pompey and Cicero and Caesar's game plan too, by the way; it went very well for him until (4), where he got beaten by Caesar.

 

[Telamon]

IIRC it turns out lead pipes are less dangerous than we'd thought, at least the Roman ones; the water around the city had enough calcium that a plaque built up within the pipes which prevented lead from leaching into the water, and the water velocity through the pipes wasn't fast enough nor the pressure high enough to scour that plaque away.

Now the other uses of lead, those did cause problems.

As far as how to navigate the beginning of the end of the Republic, I haven't a clue. Although probably removing Sulla and then turning on Cinna for the illegality of his present consulship would be the way to go. If we can keep the cycle of "general marches on Rome with his troops, installs self as ruler" from starting, we might be able to prevent the series of coups that lead to the Principate.

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That is almost precisely what Sulla did — in fact, he is famous for it. He installed himself as dictator, murdered all the warmongering populists and troublemakers, installed a bunch of laws to make it harder for anyone to do what he and Marius just did, then retired. He performed emergency triage on the Republic by murdering every single Marian he could get his hands on.

Except...one.

Just one boy that his cousin and the Vestal Virgins begged him to let live, a snot-nosed 16-year old 'priest' with no wealth, no influence, and hardly anything to his name. Surely, letting him go couldn't damn the Republic. Surely, Sulla could retire to the sleep of centuries knowing that what he had done could never be undone, that no tyrant could ever rule in Rome again, that the legacy of Marius was dead and gone...

SPOILER: He was wrong.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Well yeah, that's the question. But the thing is, it's a little hard to tell who is set up to win the Civil War right now as there's a fog of war clouding everything. We don't know the real strength of either side, and on paper in terms of numbers I think both Marius and Sulla have around the same number of men under their command, with both likely having legendary military skills to call upon, thus making it even harder for us to determine who will win during the decisive clash.

For the most part it seems like everyone is working on the assumption that Sulla is likely going to be the inevitable victor, which is not surprising considering he did win OTL and right now he is well positioned to. The thing is, I just don't think we'll be able to effectively flip the Legion to Sulla so easily due to the Marians likely watching our Legion like a hawk after their last Legion turned traitor.

So I'm curious as to what our long term plan is here, because while it may be easy to play as the competent subordinate for now, we're going to have to make a decision sooner or later.

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I think we can't really make a plan and stick to it unless we hardcore commit to one faction or the other. Because too much is going to depend on who wins the upcoming battles.

Like, suppose we get approached by a Sullan agent offering us a huge pile of money to flip our legion? We'll have to make a decision... but we can't foresee what decision because it'll be situational.

That is almost precisely what Sulla did — in fact, he is famous for it. He installed himself as dictator, murdered all the warmongering populists and troublemakers, installed a bunch of laws to make it harder for anyone to do what he and Marius just did, then retired. He performed emergency triage on the Republic by murdering every single Marian he could get his hands on.

Except...one.

Just one boy that his cousin and the Vestal Virgins begged him to let live, a snot-nosed 16-year old 'priest' with no wealth, no influence, and hardly anything to his name. Surely, letting him go couldn't damn the Republic. Surely, Sulla could retire to the sleep of centuries knowing that what he had done could never be undone, that no tyrant could ever rule in Rome again, that the legacy of Marius was dead and gone...

SPOILER: He was wrong.

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I mean, even if he'd offed Julius Caesar, the same forces Sulla set in motion would give rise to, for example, Pompey.

 

[Teen Spirit]

I suppose a big question is do we want to try and save the republic, in which case siding with Sulla seems the best bet. Or are we more focused on our characters power? Then the answer becomes a lot more uncertain, because we can exploit the situation after Sulla's death as well as turn against him.

 

[Telamon]

I think we can't really make a plan and stick to it unless we hardcore commit to one faction or the other. Because too much is going to depend on who wins the upcoming battles.

Like, suppose we get approached by a Sullan agent offering us a huge pile of money to flip our legion? We'll have to make a decision... but we can't foresee what decision because it'll be situational.

I mean, even if he'd offed Julius Caesar, the same forces Sulla set in motion would give rise to, for example, Pompey.

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Shhhh can't you see I'm mocking a man who's been dead for centuries?

But yes, Sulla's heavyhanded attempts to make Rome into something that could withstand men like him and Marius was inherently flawed by the fact that he, as an optimate, was unable of effecting any real societal-level change without betraying his own ideals and those of his supporters. The Senate and the aristocratic elite had to keep their power. Sulla truly believed that if he could just restore the mos maiorum, the ancient traditions of Rome he himself had run roughshod over, then all would be well and the Republic could chug on for another few centuries.

But Rome's delicate traditions had already been broken — people had seen the man behind the curtain. Not one but two powerful generals had marched on Rome and disregarded all tradition, and were rewarded with absolute power. There was no going back from that without drastic widespread reform. The mos maiorum began to crumble, and the sheen of civility that covered Roman society eroded.

As Cicero put it: O Tempora, O Mores!

 

[veekie]

I knew of the lead containers, hence my comment, and yeah it can be useful a material, but we know is toxic and that it accumulates and the way it affect us when the build up is enough is bad enough to make us steer away from lead like the plague.
The Romans didn't know this to their own detriment

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Uh, the Romans totally DID know that lead was poisonous, lead pipes weren't significantly poisonous, as others said, the calcium scale soon rendered toxicity moot, and there are recovered writings recommending against using lead...which was still used because theres a lot of piping and Rome had a surfeit of lead, which made it the cheapest, most easily shaped metal. They had a choice between everyone having lead pipes for water supply, or only the wealthiest having a water supply.

This did not stop them from making lead based sweeteners(boiled wine in lead containers), because much as its difficult for modern society to imagine, flavor of ANY sort was prized, and it was easier to transport than fresh fruit. They knew it was toxic and ate it anyway because the alternative was bland food.
For context? Imagine eating tough bread and porridge for basically every meal. Nothing else. The rich might have salted fish or meat semi-regularly.

Granted, people in modern times know eating too much sugar is bad too. Never stopped sweetened drinks from being sold by the ton.

 

[DkArthas]

Honestly, from what I understand. Sertorius seems like the only one with a good chance at making the necessary reform to save the Republic at this time? He is supposed to be a pretty good statesman, a populares and comparatively less bloodthirsty.

 

[Japanime]

I think we can't really make a plan and stick to it unless we hardcore commit to one faction or the other. Because too much is going to depend on who wins the upcoming battles.

Like, suppose we get approached by a Sullan agent offering us a huge pile of money to flip our legion? We'll have to make a decision... but we can't foresee what decision because it'll be situational.

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That's fair, and kind of my view on the situation as well.

So it looks like our best bet is to simply win the loyalty of our legion and hopefully use that loyalty when the decisive moment comes in order to save our own skins.

I'm just not sure what our favored outcome would be theoretically, all that I am hoping for is that we can engineer a victory of sorts that allows us to keep our skin and not screw over someone like Sertorius.

 

[Telamon]

Where are the Goths themselves on this chart?

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Do you see that little red dot next to the word Goth?

Nothing is more goth than the Goths.

Uh, the Romans totally DID know that lead was poisonous, lead pipes weren't significantly poisonous, as others said, the calcium scale soon rendered toxicity moot, and there are recovered writings recommending against using lead...which was still used because theres a lot of piping and Rome had a surfeit of lead, which made it the cheapest, most easily shaped metal. They had a choice between everyone having lead pipes for water supply, or only the wealthiest having a water supply.

This did not stop them from making lead based sweeteners(boiled wine in lead containers), because much as its difficult for modern society to imagine, flavor of ANY sort was prized, and it was easier to transport than fresh fruit. They knew it was toxic and ate it anyway because the alternative was bland food.
For context? Imagine eating tough bread and porridge for basically every meal.

Granted, people in modern times know eating too much sugar is bad too. Never stopped sweetened drinks from being sold by the ton.

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Romans ate fermented fish guts with nearly every meal. They were desperate.

 

[globalwarmth]

Romans ate fermented fish guts with nearly every meal. They were desperate.

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but all that umami tho!

I say we take our troops and go east henching as mercenaries until we get somewhere with spices

 

[Simon_Jester]

I'm just not sure what our favored outcome would be theoretically, all that I am hoping for is that we can engineer a victory of sorts that allows us to keep our skin and not screw over someone like Sertorius.

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Well, the only path that leads to Sertorius personally not being screwed is a Marian victory. Because Sulla personally hates Sertorius and will sic men like Pompey on him over and over until something sticks and he dies.

Do you see that little red dot next to the word Goth?

Nothing is more goth than the Goths.

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Yeah but the historical Goths were pretty jockish as I recall.

 

[Telamon]

but all that umami tho!

I say we take our troops and go east henching as mercenaries until we get somewhere with spices

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That is literally the plot of Xeneophon's Anabasis.

 

[Simon_Jester]

That is literally the plot of Xeneophon's Anabasis.

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I thought it was, like, the plot hook.

The plot is "and then it all went horribly wrong and MAXIMUM HELLENIC ROAD TRIIIP!"

 

[The Sandman]

One thing that would help is creating a state structure that isn't just "the aristocrats, their families, and whatever slaves/freedmen they trust". Preferably one that itself owns enough land and industry to not be entirely dependent on the aristocrats or war booty for its funding.

This structure would have to be responsible for the key functions of minting coinage, paying and provisioning the army and navy, keeping Rome itself fed, keeping stores of food on hand for famine, maintaining civic infrastructure (roads, aqueducts, sewers, etc.), maintaining communications throughout the empire by means of a dedicated postal and courier service, and supporting the various temples and shrines; it would also inevitably need to run an education system that could produce the necessary bureaucrats to do all of this.

Now, one way to try to make instituting this possible is to encourage the aristocracy to use its wealth for cultural pursuits, hosting games, constructing buildings like baths and temples, and generally pushing them farther towards personal gratification and away from actual power; making government work too low-class and too involved for them to bother themselves with. Instituting a permanent nominal tax on their estates that amounts to a barely noticeable portion of their wealth, but making this tax complicated enough to require regular full audits to actually collect it, is the next step; the real goal here isn't to collect tax money, it's to keep track of how the aristocrats are spending their wealth and thus hopefully catch things like bribery or the creation of private armies before they cause too much damage. Obviously, one part of this is that tax collectors would need to be paid a very generous salary from the state and various other perks to make it more difficult for the aristocrats to bribe them.

Then you start using the state's financial reserves to offer loans to the aristocrats, backed by their estates. Estates seized in this fashion when the aristocrats are no longer able to pay can be broken up and redistributed, or alternatively made into some sort of Roman-style agrarian co-ops. This way, you can both start weakening some of the aristocratic families and prevent them from being able to spend as freely while dodging their creditors.

To do all of this, though, we probably need to conquer Egypt and put it under the control of this hypothetical Roman bureaucracy, to provide the food, wealth, and paper to actually implement it. Also, control of enough gold and silver to let the government keep paying for things while also minting enough currency to support the internal economy, which probably means Spanish mines.

And we need to prevent the whole project from being dismantled before it gets going. So the Optimates, or at least the intelligent ones, absolutely need to be suppressed.

...I wonder if we can work out any way to get Sulla killed by Mithridates, allowing us to reintegrate his army without having to again force Romans to fight other Romans.

 

[Teen Spirit]

...I wonder if we can work out any way to get Sulla killed by Mithridates, allowing us to reintegrate his army without having to again force Romans to fight other Romans.

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This is late Republic Rome. Romans will be fighting Romans, numerous times.

 

[Simon_Jester]

One thing that would help is creating a state structure that isn't just "the aristocrats, their families, and whatever slaves/freedmen they trust". Preferably one that itself owns enough land and industry to not be entirely dependent on the aristocrats or war booty for its funding.

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It's called "the Roman Empire," more or less- and it took someone powerful and ruthless enough to crush as many aristocrats as he had to, to make it happen.

You can't just snap your fingers and create a civil service bureaucracy; it's the work of a lifetime. Not impossible, but not easy. First, you have to win all the civil wars against all the enemies who think they can come up with a better way to spend your civil service's budget. Second, you have to ram all these reforms through, which requires that you either create a whole new governing body that isn't the Senate, or intimidate the senators so fully that they'll vote away their own power because the alternative is death.

And we need to prevent the whole project from being dismantled before it gets going. So the Optimates, or at least the intelligent ones, absolutely need to be suppressed.

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Aaaand by this point you're basically saying "we need to do what Julius and Augustus Caesar combined did."

 

[Professor Vesca]

It's called "the Roman Empire," more or less- and it took someone powerful and ruthless enough to crush as many aristocrats as he had to, to make it happen.

You can't just snap your fingers and create a civil service bureaucracy; it's the work of a lifetime. Not impossible, but not easy. First, you have to win all the civil wars against all the enemies who think they can come up with a better way to spend your civil service's budget. Second, you have to ram all these reforms through, which requires that you either create a whole new governing body that isn't the Senate, or intimidate the senators so fully that they'll vote away their own power because the alternative is death.

Aaaand by this point you're basically saying "we need to do what Julius and Augustus Caesar combined did."

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While simultaneously distributing authority such that you cant just roll up on Rome and crown yourself the King. You actually have to take all or most of the Empire.

And we should also get a pony...

And a million bucks...

And a 1966 Ford Mustang...

And an egyptian Steam Kettle...

And the scientific method...

And...

 

[Publicola]

Pick One
[] The Marians: You wish to know if Cinna or his allies are planning anything before they do it, and to receive updates on their moves and strategies, that you might better plan your own actions in accordance with what they might do. (-10 Talents)
[] The Sullans: You tell Proserpina to keep an eye on the activities of the Sullan partisans still in Rome. Though greatly diminished in power, they still have enough influence to make plays that could upset the delicate balance of power in Rome. (-7 Talents)
[] The Catilinarians: Proserpina is surprised when you ask her to extend her network to keep an eye on Catiline and his band of disaffected youths. Young men barely your age or older, they have little real power in Rome, but you are still concerned that they might make a move which could influence your decisions. (-4 Talents)

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There are really only two options here. The Marians control Rome. If we want to get the most information out of our family spynet, we need to see what the Marians are up to. Easy peasy.

If we don't especially care what the Marians are up to, if we are okay with learning the news alongside everyone else and dealing with each event as they come -- and remember, we're on the other side of the Mediterranean, so our ability to proactively respond to news as it reaches us is basically nil -- then we should lay the groundwork for the 'next round of the eternal civil war' and spy on the Catilinarians, to see what they're up to, to gather blackmail material on the bad ones, and see which ones are potentially able to be swayed to our side.

Friends In Far Places

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Likewise, there are really only two choices here. Theo is our bard, the diplomancer, the guy who can help us talk and work peacefully with others. If our focus is on swaying the Greek towns to our side, he's a natural choice.

On the other hand, the war between Sulla v. Marius v. Mithridates is about to turn fiery hot, which means our personal safety is much more at risk than it has ever been. Bringing Glaber as our bodyguard and personal trainer would help ensure that we actually survive the next fight, and the next one, and the one after that.

Rudderless

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The men don't know Asiaticus, and neither do we. Inciting rebellion is a bad move, as is inciting blind loyalty to man we don't know. ''Gather Support" is the only acceptable option here.

Personal:
Pick three

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Okay, this one's big, so I'll comment on each item individually.

[] Write Home: With such long travel times, anything you write will take a long time to arrive. However, that does not mean you cannot write. You write to... (response will arrive in 2-3 turns)
--[] Scaevola
--[] Cicero
--[] Atticus
--[] Proserpina
--[] Catiline
--[] Volero

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I feel that this one should be locked, and for one specific reason. Our last series of letters with Cicero gave us XP for our 'Intelligence' stat. This is a only consistent way we've found of developing that stat, and it applies to everything. 'Intelligence' is quite possibly the most important mechanic in the game, and letters to Cicero is the only way we've found of developing it.

Plus, for the next two thousand years, Cicero is going to be universally acknowledged as the greatest letter-writer in history, and I want to get in on that action. His letters are fun to read (both IC and OOC; I love those updates whenever Telamon writes one), incredibly informative on all kinds of subjects, and help us develop a better relationship with the greatest lawyer and statesman of the upcoming generation.

[] Brotherhood: You begin eating your meals with the men, to show them that you stand as one of them, not some aloof aristocrat. They care for you already, but this may well cement it.

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I don't think it's worth it. Unless we're going to spend a lot of energy making sure everyone loves us, it would take way too many actions to boost our support among the men of the legion beyond its current level (because they already love/respect/trust us). Our actions can be better spent on other pursuits. (That's not to mention the danger of making the legion love us more than its actual general, which is what led to the mutiny of the IX Legio this past turn.

[] The Consul: You attempt to strike up a conversation with the new-made Consul, Scipio Asiaticus. Famed back in Rome as an orator and a jurist, he may well provide good conversation, though you are under no illusions about making as deep a connection as you did with Sertorius, who loved your father.

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We don't know Asiaticus, and this is our chance to figure him out. Despite his lack of military achievement, he's no slouch ("famed as an orator and a jurist" means he might help us develop the same skills that Scaevola taught us) and getting to know him personally might allow us to learn more about the top tier of the Marian faction. I think this should be our second action.

[] The Scipians: Unlike Sertorius, who traveled with a single slave, Scipio has brought along a veritable entourage of slaves, clients, friends, and cronies. These Scipians are largely plebian men of all stripes, and you attempt to integrate yourselves with them in order to learn something more of their master.

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I'm not convinced we're good enough at Intrigue and Subterfuge to interrogate his staff without him noticing what we're up to. Hard no on this one.

[] Sparring: You begin sparring with the men, testing your own skill with the blade against the skill of the men serving under you.

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Battle will give us all the XP we need, and we're going to see plenty of it soon.

[] Seafaring: Romans are not mariners. However, by necessity, generals of the land are sometimes forced to become generals of the sea. You speak with the officers and crewmembers of the ships ferrying your legion overseas, hoping to learn something useful.

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...Random skill, possibly useful, but not worth the extra action. It'd take a lot of training actions to make this useful, and I just don't think we need to.

[] Si Vis Pacem: You begin brushing up on your Greek, in ancticipation of subjugating Greek towns and villages in Asia.

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If we bring Theo and focus on diplomancing the cities of Asia Minor... this is a strong contender.

[] Para Bellum: You begin studying the campaigns against the Macedonians and the Greeks over a century ago, hoping to learn more about Greek tactics, that you might counter them better.

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If we bring Glaber and focus on beating the stuffing out of the cities of Asia Minor... this is a strong contender.

[] Res Publica: You study the formations of your own legions, the way Romans fight. After all, you may soon be doing war with Romans -- and what is more Roman than that?

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Given the 'boss' of this particular campaign is a fellow Roman legion, we may need to brush up on our history and figure out any weak points to the Legion structure, to ensure we have an advantage when we reach the final battle. This might also unlock innovations, allowing us to be know for reforming the army to a more efficient level.

[] The Cult: You call together the cult of Mars, hoping to influence the officers and tribunes within towards your viewpoint on the new consul. (Depends on your choice for the Rudderless vote)

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I don't feel strongly enough about Asiaticus to want to influence others toward our viewpoint, so this is a hard no as well.

[] Fortune's Favor: After camp is made for the night, several of the officers, including Carcellus, Pompolussa, and Mercator, gather to gamble and game. They have extended you an invitation.

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...Remind me, who are the other officers? Are any of them famous or notable or in any way useful? We might want to pick this option once, at some point, just to see what our options are, but I don't recognize any of the names, so I'm inclined to say no.

[] Study: You study the campaigns of Marius in Africa, hoping to learn something about defeating a hostile kingdom while protecting Roman clients.

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This is another strong candidate for our action this round. Marius is a legend for a reason, and his campaigns in Africa were basically the same sort of thing we're doing now. If we can figure out what he did and how he did it, we have a shot at replicating his success and becoming a legend in our own right.

Basically, "letters to Cicero" and 'dinner with the Consul' should be absolutely locked, and we should spend our third action on training for the upcoming fight, but I have very mixed feelings about which specific action we should take.

 

[HeWhoAdds]

I feel that this one should be locked, and for one specific reason. Our last series of letters with Cicero gave us XP for our 'Intelligence' stat. This is a only consistent way we've found of developing that stat, and it applies to everything. 'Intelligence' is quite possibly the most important mechanic in the game, and letters to Cicero is the only way we've found of developing it.

Plus, for the next two thousand years, Cicero is going to be universally acknowledged as the greatest letter-writer in history, and I want to get in on that action. His letters are fun to read (both IC and OOC; I love those updates whenever Telamon writes one), incredibly informative on all kinds of subjects, and help us develop a better relationship with the greatest lawyer and statesman of the upcoming generation.

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Plus if we fuck up real bad and die, we'll at least still be remembered as "That guy who wrote Cicero a bunch of letters".

 

[Ghostdevil]

Cult of Mars and Supporting ourselves is a must even if only to cement their loyalty to us first.

 

[Publicola]

Cult of Mars and Supporting ourselves is a must even if only to cement their loyalty to us first.

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The current 'Cult' action doesn't help cement the legion's loyalty to ourselves. The text of that action states that we'd call on the Cult of Mars to "influence the officers and tribunes within towards your viewpoint on the new consul." I agree that we should 'Gather Support' among the legion (rather than reinforce or undermine Asiaticus' position), but the 'Cult of Mars' action wouldn't help us with this.

Plus, we'll gain the legion's loyalty as we prove ourselves on the field of battle. We don't need to spend extra actions on that outside of battle -- especially at the expense of training to ensure we actually win those battles in the first place.

 

[Telamon]

There are really only two options here. The Marians control Rome. If we want to get the most information out of our family spynet, we need to see what the Marians are up to. Easy peasy.

If we don't especially care what the Marians are up to, if we are okay with learning the news alongside everyone else and dealing with each event as they come -- and remember, we're on the other side of the Mediterranean, so our ability to proactively respond to news as it reaches us is basically nil -- then we should lay the groundwork for the 'next round of the eternal civil war' and spy on the Catilinarians, to see what they're up to, to gather blackmail material on the bad ones, and see which ones are potentially able to be swayed to our side.



Likewise, there are really only two choices here. Theo is our bard, the diplomancer, the guy who can help us talk and work peacefully with others. If our focus is on swaying the Greek towns to our side, he's a natural choice.

On the other hand, the war between Sulla v. Marius v. Mithridates is about to turn fiery hot, which means our personal safety is much more at risk than it has ever been. Bringing Glaber as our bodyguard and personal trainer would help ensure that we actually survive the next fight, and the next one, and the one after that.


The men don't know Asiaticus, and neither do we. Inciting rebellion is a bad move, as is inciting blind loyalty to man we don't know. ''Gather Support" is the only acceptable option here.


Okay, this one's big, so I'll comment on each item individually.

I feel that this one should be locked, and for one specific reason. Our last series of letters with Cicero gave us XP for our 'Intelligence' stat. This is a only consistent way we've found of developing that stat, and it applies to everything. 'Intelligence' is quite possibly the most important mechanic in the game, and letters to Cicero is the only way we've found of developing it.

Plus, for the next two thousand years, Cicero is going to be universally acknowledged as the greatest letter-writer in history, and I want to get in on that action. His letters are fun to read (both IC and OOC; I love those updates whenever Telamon writes one), incredibly informative on all kinds of subjects, and help us develop a better relationship with the greatest lawyer and statesman of the upcoming generation.

I don't think it's worth it. Unless we're going to spend a lot of energy making sure everyone loves us, it would take way too many actions to boost our support among the men of the legion beyond its current level (because they already love/respect/trust us). Our actions can be better spent on other pursuits. (That's not to mention the danger of making the legion love us more than its actual general, which is what led to the mutiny of the IX Legio this past turn.

We don't know Asiaticus, and this is our chance to figure him out. Despite his lack of military achievement, he's no slouch ("famed as an orator and a jurist" means he might help us develop the same skills that Scaevola taught us) and getting to know him personally might allow us to learn more about the top tier of the Marian faction. I think this should be our second action.

I'm not convinced we're good enough at Intrigue and Subterfuge to interrogate his staff without him noticing what we're up to. Hard no on this one.

Battle will give us all the XP we need, and we're going to see plenty of it soon.

...Random skill, possibly useful, but not worth the extra action. It'd take a lot of training actions to make this useful, and I just don't think we need to.

If we bring Theo and focus on diplomancing the cities of Asia Minor... this is a strong contender.

If we bring Glaber and focus on beating the stuffing out of the cities of Asia Minor... this is a strong contender.

Given the 'boss' of this particular campaign is a fellow Roman legion, we may need to brush up on our history and figure out any weak points to the Legion structure, to ensure we have an advantage when we reach the final battle. This might also unlock innovations, allowing us to be know for reforming the army to a more efficient level.

I don't feel strongly enough about Asiaticus to want to influence others toward our viewpoint, so this is a hard no as well.

...Remind me, who are the other officers? Are any of them famous or notable or in any way useful? We might want to pick this option once, at some point, just to see what our options are, but I don't recognize any of the names, so I'm inclined to say no.

This is another strong candidate for our action this round. Marius is a legend for a reason, and his campaigns in Africa were basically the same sort of thing we're doing now. If we can figure out what he did and how he did it, we have a shot at replicating his success and becoming a legend in our own right.

Basically, "letters to Cicero" and 'dinner with the Consul' should be absolutely locked, and we should spend our third action on training for the upcoming fight, but I have very mixed feelings about which specific action we should take.

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Carcellus is your camp prefect. Lucius Proculus Mercator is the 'primus pilus', the first Centurion of the First Cohort, and thusly the best soldier in the legion, first into battle and last out — he fought by Atellus' side at Aequum Tuticum and the Tabelline Pass. Pompolussa is the first centurion of the Third Cohort, and was instrumental to the defeat of Gemino, leading the feint that distracted him and being wounded in the process.

Though the oldest/most respected soldiers in the legion, they are by far not the only men of influence, and there are some Atellus has yet to establish personal relationships with, such as Gaius Cornelius Dolabella, commander of the equites and leader of the cavalry. He accompanied Sertorius for most of the Samnite war as a personal confidant, which is why you never spoke to him much (also you're a step above a literal child and he's one of the Cornelii, so...)

All of these men have goals and ambitions of their own — to feed their families, to lead a legion of their own, to see their faction win, or even to rise in Rome off the glory of victories in the east. The man now leading half a legion of traitors under Mithridates, Lucius Magnia, was once camp prefect for Flaccus, the man he helped murder.

In short — yes, the officers are important.

 

[Simon_Jester]

@Telamon , could you please link to a place where the stat dividing lines between, for instance, "Talented" and "Renowned" and so on are located? It's supposed to be in the front page slider about the rules, but it's obscured so you can only see the first few entries on the list.

It would help with planning.

There are really only two options here. The Marians control Rome. If we want to get the most information out of our family spynet, we need to see what the Marians are up to. Easy peasy.

If we don't especially care what the Marians are up to, if we are okay with learning the news alongside everyone else and dealing with each event as they come -- and remember, we're on the other side of the Mediterranean, so our ability to proactively respond to news as it reaches us is basically nil -- then we should lay the groundwork for the 'next round of the eternal civil war' and spy on the Catilinarians, to see what they're up to, to gather blackmail material on the bad ones, and see which ones are potentially able to be swayed to our side.

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Caveats:

Spying on the Marians could have bad consequences of Proserpina rolls a 1 and gets caught, but may be worth it if we decide to build around a plan of "flip the Sixth Legion to Sulla," in which case the extra intel on Marian activities might further ingratiate us to him.

Likewise, there are really only two choices here. Theo is our bard, the diplomancer, the guy who can help us talk and work peacefully with others. If our focus is on swaying the Greek towns to our side, he's a natural choice.

On the other hand, the war between Sulla v. Marius v. Mithridates is about to turn fiery hot, which means our personal safety is much more at risk than it has ever been. Bringing Glaber as our bodyguard and personal trainer would help ensure that we actually survive the next fight, and the next one, and the one after that.

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Yeah, about like I figured. That other guy, the head of our household guards, is a potential candidate, but we don't know him like we know Glaber. For command XP he's no Tercerus, and for raw combat he's not going to be Glaber's superior.

The men don't know Asiaticus, and neither do we. Inciting rebellion is a bad move, as is inciting blind loyalty to man we don't know. ''Gather Support" is the only acceptable option here.

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Um.

That's only true if we don't explicitly plan to support one side or the other in the civil war. If we're planning to go Full Marian, we need to do everything in our power to ensure that the Sixth Legion is an effective instrument for Marius and his faction. Conversely, if we're planning to go Full Sullan, we need to lay preparatory groundwork with the legion.

Okay, this one's big, so I'll comment on each item individually.

I feel that this one should be locked, and for one specific reason. Our last series of letters with Cicero gave us XP for our 'Intelligence' stat. This is a only consistent way we've found of developing that stat, and it applies to everything. 'Intelligence' is quite possibly the most important mechanic in the game, and letters to Cicero is the only way we've found of developing it.

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...I am not at ALL sure that the benefits of slowly grinding Intelligence with letters to Cicero is worth locking down 1/3 of our personal actions indefinitely. But it's an appealing option to me too, despite that.

I don't think it's worth it. Unless we're going to spend a lot of energy making sure everyone loves us, it would take way too many actions to boost our support among the men of the legion beyond its current level (because they already love/respect/trust us). Our actions can be better spent on other pursuits. (That's not to mention the danger of making the legion love us more than its actual general, which is what led to the mutiny of the IX Legio this past turn.

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Again, this is correct unless we're actually specifically planning a strategy that revolves around the Sixth mutinying and flipping to Sulla or something.

We don't know Asiaticus, and this is our chance to figure him out. Despite his lack of military achievement, he's no slouch ("famed as an orator and a jurist" means he might help us develop the same skills that Scaevola taught us) and getting to know him personally might allow us to learn more about the top tier of the Marian faction. I think this should be our second action.

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It definitely has a lot to recommend it.

Battle will give us all the XP we need, and we're going to see plenty of it soon.

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Well, our ability to survive the battles may hinge on a lot of things. Tercerus' Command XP trickle was very helpful; something like that from Glaber might be quite nice.

...Random skill, possibly useful, but not worth the extra action. It'd take a lot of training actions to make this useful, and I just don't think we need to.

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It's quite likely that some day we'll need to understand fleets to prosecute a campaign properly. We don't necessarily have to turn ourselves into a genius, but grinding the skill high enough to just eliminate the penalty or at least blunt it so that we don't make idiotic blunders when shipping our men from Point A to Point B would be nice.

If we bring Theo and focus on diplomancing the cities of Asia Minor... this is a strong contender.

If we bring Glaber and focus on beating the stuffing out of the cities of Asia Minor... this is a strong contender.

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I think we should brush up on our Greek regardless. It's the language of intellectual discourse in the Mediterranean, and there are Greeks all over the place. Being fluent in Greek is a big deal.

Given the 'boss' of this particular campaign is a fellow Roman legion, we may need to brush up on our history and figure out any weak points to the Legion structure, to ensure we have an advantage when we reach the final battle. This might also unlock innovations, allowing us to be know for reforming the army to a more efficient level.

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Definitely worth considering.

...Remind me, who are the other officers? Are any of them famous or notable or in any way useful? We might want to pick this option once, at some point, just to see what our options are, but I don't recognize any of the names, so I'm inclined to say no.

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Whut.

Dude, these are the same officers we just spent the entire Samnite campaign with. Rufus who's our peer/friend, Mercator the primus pilum of the legion and its foremost soldier, Pompolussa who served as our senior centurion during the campaign against Gemino, and Carcellus the camp prefect who's effectively third in command of the legion overall after the legate and maybe us.

This is basically the whole command staff of the legion. Big deal. Might want to see what they have to say/think.

This is another strong candidate for our action this round. Marius is a legend for a reason, and his campaigns in Africa were basically the same sort of thing we're doing now. If we can figure out what he did and how he did it, we have a shot at replicating his success and becoming a legend in our own right.

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True. It may also help us make a good impression if we meet him, which is not unlikely now.

[/QUOTE]

Cult of Mars and Supporting ourselves is a must even if only to cement their loyalty to us first.

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I mean, those are "musts" if we pursue a strategy that prioritizes making the Sixth Legion loyal primarily to Atellus. Some possible strategies revolve around that, others don't.

The current 'Cult' action doesn't help cement the legion's loyalty to ourselves. The text of that action states that we'd call on the Cult of Mars to "influence the officers and tribunes within towards your viewpoint on the new consul." I agree that we should 'Gather Support' among the legion (rather than reinforce or undermine Asiaticus' position), but the 'Cult of Mars' action wouldn't help us with this.

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I think you're being WAY too literal-minded here. There's no logical reason to think we couldn't leverage the Cult of Mars action to increase the legion's personal loyalty to Atellus. Especially not when Atellus is literally the leader of their blood cult.

Plus, we'll gain the legion's loyalty as we prove ourselves on the field of battle. We don't need to spend extra actions on that outside of battle -- especially at the expense of training to ensure we actually win those battles in the first place.

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The catch is that having a very loyal supportive legion can be a huge asset in situations where incremental +1 modifiers to fighting certain enemies doesn't make much difference.

As an aspiring young Roman, Atellus is inherently a political animal. Ignoring politics to concentrate on minmaxing his battle stats is not a winning proposition.

 

[Dark Abstraction]

Um.

That's only true if we don't explicitly plan to support one side or the other in the civil war.

[...]

Again, this is correct unless we're actually specifically planning a strategy that revolves around the Sixth mutinying and flipping to Sulla or something.

[...]

I mean, those are "musts" if we pursue a strategy that prioritizes making the Sixth Legion loyal primarily to Atellus. Some possible strategies revolve around that, others don't.

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We haven't done anything to place Atellus in favor of one side over the other though, so these statements of yours don't actually hold any weight. If people had actually done some campaigning that we the voters dedicate ourselves to such a position, they may start to do so, but until that point @Publicola is objectively correct about those points.

 

[Satar]

Romans ate fermented fish guts with nearly every meal. They were desperate.

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Or why I'd rather have been born in India (or China) in any time before the modern era, tbh. Provided you don't spawn into, like, the Yellow Turban rebellion or something, your quality of life is leaps and bounds over anything anywhere else has to offer. Actual spices, imagine.