OK I realized I had wrongly thought we made a promise to put a man in space by the decade's end. Don't know how, but in that case might as well go slow.

[] [HUMAN] Go with a two-seat spacecraft.
[X] [BOTHER] Divert resources to rebuilding Electrification in Sub-Saharan Africa

EDIT: Forgot what Korolev was asking for.
[X] [HUMAN] Go with a single-person spacecraft.
 
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[X] [HUMAN] Go with a single-person spacecraft.

Our *pad* cannot handle a two man craft.
We need to decide if a bigger pad is something we can or want to do.
 
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[X] [HUMAN] Go with a single-person spacecraft.
[X] [BOTHER] Divert resources to rebuilding Industry in Sub-Saharan Africa
 
Our *pad* cannot handle a two man craft.
We need to decide if a bigger pad is something we can or want to do.

I mean, we* can do it. But I'm perfectly fine with a larger pad. We'll need one eventually unless Alternate Launch Systems comes out with something like..


And that seems like it'd be powerhungry+++ (since it's an electromagnetic catapult)
 
[X] [HUMAN] Go with a two-seat spacecraft.
[X] [BOTHER] Divert resources to rebuilding Electrification in Sub-Saharan Africa
 
[X] [HUMAN] Go with a single-person spacecraft

This isn't a transport, it's proof of concept

[X] [BOTHER] Divert resources to rebuilding Electrification in Sub-Saharan Africa
We have a commitment to do this, we might as well. It helps us too.
 
OK I realized I had wrongly thought we made a promise to put a man in space by the decade's end. Don't know how, but in that case might as well go slow.

[X] [HUMAN] Go with a two-seat spacecraft.
[X] [BOTHER] Divert resources to rebuilding Electrification in Sub-Saharan Africa
It's Korolev's next request, which is arguably more important than a promise seeing the rewards from completing the last one on schedule.
Counterpoint, when are we gonna make the 30 year booster? 1960, 1965?
The 1960-1965 planning period, yeah. Our next five years are going to be focused on several difficult tasks (weather satellites, venusian probe, martian probe, person in orbit), the recent update's language has my "toeing the line on crunch" warning bells ringing, and there's no pressing need for us to do this. We shouldn't try and run before we can walk, and that means our focus for now should be doing these quick goals with what we can instead of making an unreliable stopgap solution that we replace soon anyways.
You don't just want high performance upper stages, lightweight tanks and high pressure engines, you also talk about reusability, so I think you want to move the R-5 off past the end of this manned spaceflight program.
Yeah, I'm not making a secret of the fact that I would prefer if we tried to limit our objectives for the next five years to what I feel is achievable. Stuff like the interplanetary program is going to take a lot of effort; designing an entirely new rocket at the same time feels like too much. Making a new rocket also is more likely to kill an astronaut - we've got several R-4 launches under our belt, and are going to be doing a lot more in 1957 with our weather satellite program. The more launches we do, the lower the die roll needed to succeed. If we want to successfully do a two-person capsule, then we're designing an entirely new rocket, launching it enough time with dummy payloads to get reliability numbers down to a good value, and then launching crew into orbit, all by the end of the decade. I don't think we can get the ~2 dozen launches we'd have with the R-4 and R-4a on a new platform, and to me, astronaut safety is the most important thing here.
I certainly get the impression that you just want to launch this capsule once and then try to forget about manned spaceflight until there's something that needs to be assembled in space and then you want the workforce to appear just in time.
I do want to launch this capsule (with an astronaut) only once; we have no idea how well it'll perform yet and are operating under a time crunch. We can then go back to the drawing board and design an improved capsule with improved ergonomics, reliability, ability to perform orbital science, etc.

If by "try to forget about it" you mean "have our primary objective for the 1960-1965 5-year period be to build a safe, reliable, and low-cost launch system for putting crew into space", well...
I'm less optimistic about that-and more practically, I think we'll want a bigger than the R-4 launch vehicle. Because the R-4 is really, really small. It's about the size of Falcon 1, and I don't think that we can actually do a lot of missions with it. Even if you R-4a, I don't think you'll get a significant launch payload out of it. So I want a new rocket, maybe not the final rocket, but something good for an interim.
An interim rocket is inherently not a good rocket. It'll be a costly, rushed development, with poor reliability, and providing us with no actual scientific benefit over a single-crew rocket. Current satellites are all very small, so I'm not sure why you're concerned about a launch payload? When it comes time to launch actual big things like orbital laboratories, those'll require a bigger rocket than the interim rocket anyways.
 
[X] [HUMAN] Go with a single-person spacecraft.

Our *pad* cannot handle a two man craft.
We need to decide if a bigger pad is something we can or want to do.
Yes? We all know that. Building a 500 ton pad is something we can easily do next year or in two years.

ETA:
An interim rocket is inherently not a good rocket. It'll be a costly, rushed development, with poor reliability, and providing us with no actual scientific benefit over a single-crew rocket. Current satellites are all very small, so I'm not sure why you're concerned about a launch payload? When it comes time to launch actual big things like orbital laboratories, those'll require a bigger rocket than the interim rocket anyways.
I think we need an interim rocket because even an uprated R-4 is still fundamentally a smallsat launcher. Even if you strap on boosters, stretch the second stage, add a third stage, change the tank materials, and use an upgraded engine, it's still a smallsat launcher. And while a lunar impactor might be fine with only being a few kilograms (though it won't produce much effect), a Venus probe does need a minimum size to support it's radio antenea and power supply for the same.
 
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[X] [HUMAN] Go with a two-seat spacecraft.
[X] [BOTHER] Divert resources to rebuilding Electrification in Sub-Saharan Africa
 
Yes? We all know that. Building a 500 ton pad is something we can easily do next year or in two years.

We don't even have enough launches under our belt to have figured out pad wear issues.
And it's just... not needed? A Mercury style series of proof of concept manned launches to flight prove various technologies is a way better investment.

Then we can actually design our 30 year booster once we have the prerequisites in place and flight tested.

There's no *rush* here for large rockets. We don't have an Apollo style dick waving contest pushing us to make a heavy launcher ASAP.

Do one seat now. I really don't understand what a second seat on this capsule accomplishes.
 
Yes? We all know that. Building a 500 ton pad is something we can easily do next year or in two years.

ETA:

I think we need an interim rocket because even an uprated R-4 is still fundamentally a smallsat launcher. Even if you strap on boosters, stretch the second stage, add a third stage, change the tank materials, and use an upgraded engine, it's still a smallsat launcher. And while a lunar impactor might be fine with only being a few kilograms (though it won't produce much effect), a Venus probe does need a minimum size to support it's radio antenea and power supply for the same.
We can make it work. Tomorrow's my "do math" day, but as a baseline, Mariner 1 was only two metric sputniks. If our upper stage can put a ton into orbit, it should be able to put 1/5 of a ton onto a Venus intercept with enlarged tanks; the first-order estimate I've done gives us a plentiful margin.
 
[X] [HUMAN] Go with a single-person spacecraft

[X] [BOTHER] Divert resources to rebuilding Electrification in Sub-Saharan Africa
 
[X] [HUMAN] Go with a single-person spacecraft
[X] [BOTHER] Divert resources to rebuilding Electrification in Sub-Saharan Africa
 
We can make it work. Tomorrow's my "do math" day, but as a baseline, Mariner 1 was only two metric sputniks. If our upper stage can put a ton into orbit, it should be able to put 1/5 of a ton onto a Venus intercept with enlarged tanks; the first-order estimate I've done gives us a plentiful margin.
Mariner 1 was only two metric sputniks, but it was launched atop an Atlas-Agena B, and Agena B was about 70 metric sputniks. I'm not sure how much of that was just for orbital insertion of it's own mass, but this is quite a bit more than a ton.
 
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[X] [HUMAN] Go with a two-seat spacecraft.
[X] [BOTHER] Divert resources to rebuilding Infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa.
 
Mariner 1 was only two metric sputniks, but it was launched atop an Atlas-Agena B, and Agena B was about 70 metric sputniks. I'm not sure how much of that was just for orbital insertion of it's own mass, but this is quite a bit more than a ton.
Agena B is also using UDMH/N2O4 and relatively heavily built for an upper stage (compare Atlas-Agena and Atlas-Centaur performance, for example). Launch vehicles are VERY sensitive to overweight second stages.
 
Agena B is also using UDMH/N2O4 and relatively heavily built for an upper stage (compare Atlas-Agena and Atlas-Centaur performance, for example). Launch vehicles are VERY sensitive to overweight second stages.
It's a Chonker, that's true. Maybe the Soviet Block E (first generation) from the Luna rockets would be a better comparison-it's still a ton and a half. Without its payload.
 
[X] [HUMAN] Go with a single-person spacecraft.

There's a lot we can do with a Mercury/Vostok equivalent - especially if we borrow from the observation satellite team, and give it a limited ability to maneuver once on orbit. It's also worth noting that even Mercury is still ~1.4 tons fully loaded with its launch abort system - which to me suggests we're going to need to up-rate or replace the R-4 anyways, as there's a sizable difference between something comparable to Vanguard or Explorer and something comparable to even a 1st gen Atlas or the Vostok variants of the R-7 family. Additionally, a single seat spacecraft that can be launched earlier means we've still got options for exploring stuff that can be done by manned spacecraft on orbit - in particular, if we give them the ability to maneuver, we could potentially explore the difficulties of orbital rendezvous, even if it's just by approaching a co-orbiting upper stage and maneuvering around it.

Once we have confidence and experience with our single seat orbital operations, we can push for a larger twin-seat capsule - which would likely just be an enlarged version of our Mercury-alike, instead of something as radically different as Gemini was.

I have no strong knowledge or opinions for the Bothering Councilors options.
 
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