In fairness he was pretty good to Lindon, there was no need for him to provide any guidance as far as utilizing hunger to consume or show Lindon his ascension to Monarch, but he did it anyway because he felt Lindon had potential. It wasn't a wholly altruistic act or anything, but he wasn't awful either. Without that insight Lindon would probably never have become the Void sage, or at least would have taken a lot longer.
Path of the Immeasurable Swarm [Worm/Cradle]
- Thread starter derivativeoflife
- Start date
- Crossover
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- USA
Setting aside staying on Cradle as a Monarch, I felt like Ghostwater set him up to be a giant asshole, in a way the rest of the story sort of soft-retconned.
Honestly Ghostwater Northstrider is kind of monster, we get a lot of stories from Dross about how so many of the workers died from experiments, or when Northstrider decided to abandon the facility.
He also killed Harmony out of spite, I guess? Like Harmony sucked, glad the dude is dead, but IMO Northstrider's POV never implies he kills Harmony because he thinks he's a bad person. He's just...not worth saving? And even that would be one thing, but then he purposefully blocks Charity from recusing him. So basically he's blocking his ally from rescuing her nephew for what seems like no reason at all.
As for Consume, that was certainly a massive boon. But did he do that to help Malice's faction, to help Dross' human container, or for some other reason? Again we don't actually ever get a POV explanation for why he chose to teach Lindon, and honestly considering his actions in the entire rest of the series, I have a hard time believing it was altruism.
That's fair. I'm not claiming it was altruism, my point was more that Lindon was not really incentivized to punish someone who had done well by him, hence why he ends up relatively fine by the end of the plot. I think Northstrider, by his actions in the main series and in his Threshold story, is someone who thinks of himself as a researcher and scientist. He's inclined to invest in certain individuals who he sees as promising because of academic interest in how their paths develop. It may also be that, although he is never inclined to voice it, he sees it as repaying a debt for aiding him in completing his oracle codex. Lindon isn't the only one in the series that he favors, as the Beast King and perhaps Ziel by extension also seem to have some of his favor. I think another possibility is that Northstrider is just the number 1 dragon hater, which would also explain why he favors the Beast King, who holds the border against the Gold dragons. By that token, Lindon, who has earned the enmity of Sopharatanoth might be worthy of his attention as a curiosity and because it's an underhanded way to bring down more dragons. I suspect the reality is a mix of both.
They're very similar people with similar issues. Taylor has made a lot of progress due to Charity, Mercy, Grace and how she's learned to operate in Cradle. Eithan has grown a lot from having Lindon and Yerin in his life but it was the talk with Taylor in the Labyrinth that was the tipping point, having someone who understood and waas able to point things out in a way he'd get mattered.
Northstrider for all his faults did at least mean well and once he was able to face his mistakes and thought processes did self correct, but there's also the consideration of how much damage he's done while a Monarch and he didn't even have the, need to stay on Cradle to make sure my people don't get rolled over justification like the others did.
Taylor for all the growth and progress she's made still remains Taylor and when it comes down to it she's still willing to make the same choices, the biggest change has come in terms of her healing, willing to be vulnerable with those she cares for, planning with others instead of on her own and letting others make their own calls as well. She's still willing to be ruthless it's just she doesn't need to as much due to increased power.
In regards to Hanno something that should be noted is that Taylor let him live, Northstrider himself noted that he and most people wouldn't have let him live after hearing such an important conversation, the fact that Taylor does so is something that does matter.
But I do agree that Oz and Taylor are still themselves, they've grown a bit but they're always going to remain themselves, but they have to as Taylor put it become better versions of themselves and they're trying to do that.
To be honest, once I realized what point of view the first perspective was from, I expected a more kinetic arrival from Taylor or the Akura. Bumping off one guy, a minor kidnapping, and some sabotage and burglary is basically nothing. I can see where she's coming from though.
Most of the Shen family is busy up at the labyrinth, but the Lion can definitely get back quickly if she kicks off anything big. Taylor is also trying to keep everything quiet until they drop the rest of the world on Shen's head.
Most of the Shen family is busy up at the labyrinth, but the Lion can definitely get back quickly if she kicks off anything big. Taylor is also trying to keep everything quiet until they drop the rest of the world on Shen's head.
If she does not chose the moment perfectly, the angry plea to the god of destiny and fate " that sextuple damned cockroach" from the lion wont have enough volume to shatter the realm of believability, and she will have to find another path to correct the hunger problem.
So she remains relatively low key and hidden, until she can organize a proper "I am still there " party at a proper dramatic moment and with adequate presentation.
(preferably also in the alabaster city, as a subtle hint to another hard to kill cape.)
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Yaaaa but with this sort of thing the less squeaky moving parts the better and the plan has to fit to convince the person in Question so dissapear a person to Akura territory
Also I find it hilarious that there is a set of Script circle defenses specificly set up to determine someone who should be dead and is just really goddamn infamous for her Shennanigans
Also dissapearing someone by way of Poaching them because they are in some sort of bind is very much in her Playbook
The sense we're given from reading Charity's dialogue isn't that Northstrider noticed Charity entering and then blocked her specifically out of spite, but that he locked down Ghostwater as a matter of course and didn't even notice Charity trying to get in.
Granted, he wouldn't be the first person to get an unflattering introduction. Charity herself is a lot colder in Underlord than she is in later books.
Yeah, this I think is the key in canon. Northstrider is the billionaire equivalent who thinks that because he donates to charity on occasion that makes him a good person. He does occasionally fight dreadgods when there's nothing in it for him because he perceives that he has some degree of obligation, but when Lindon comes along with his radical idea to reshape the system he rejects it and fights him because gosh dang it he earned his wealth/position/power and he's not giving it up.
There is a lot of great content in this chapter, but what I appreciated most was that Hanno's life under Shen's rule was…normal. I know we dislike Shen because he's against Taylor and canon reasons, but it was great to see that life tends to be the same in many aspects no matter which side you're on.
People talk about growth of Taylor... ever since she resolved to take care of the dark side of rulers rulership from Mercy, she put a hard cap on her growth. She might be usually better, but that's because she still has options and paths to victory, and hidden aces, while in Worm she was drunk on desperation. Her morals have not been tested and honestly her time at Akuras might have even hurt them - I can see her doing bigger sacrifices easier after participating in all that death within Cradle.
Thanks for the excellent chapter!
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Fun chapter. Always great to get the outside perspective on our (not yet) Queen of Nightmares, and her eldritch abomination bestie.
I don't think this is borne out in the text. Taylor hasn't needed to become more ruthless on Cradle. She also hasn't really become more or less moral. She states that for Mercy's sake, she'll do ugly things, but at least she's talking to Mercy and Charity about them, rather than silently and unilaterally making the decision, whatever those who care about her think. That's been the key point of growth, not her morals.
Taylor had so much fun saying this line. I love it.
This probably isn't what happened, but I'm imagining Taylor dumping them with Mercy for a few hours, Elissa, Adonica, and Tanitha being super super terrified, and Hiram making a new friend. Poor Hanno though, definitely a whole "if I never see these people again, it will be too soon", attitude.
How much Shen hates Taylor will never stop being funny to me.
I don't think this is borne out in the text. Taylor hasn't needed to become more ruthless on Cradle. She also hasn't really become more or less moral. She states that for Mercy's sake, she'll do ugly things, but at least she's talking to Mercy and Charity about them, rather than silently and unilaterally making the decision, whatever those who care about her think. That's been the key point of growth, not her morals.
- Location
- USA
TBH I think Taylor's biggest change is learning not to Cut Ties and trust her friends more.
- Location
- western US
oh I hope we get to see Shen find out she's alive and that his initial reaction doesn't happen 'off-screen'.
at some point of this happening, he will continue checking his closet for Taylor long after she's actually dead.
at some point of this happening, he will continue checking his closet for Taylor long after she's actually dead.
See, the issue with that is you're assuming he's going to outlive her, when all indications are that the exact opposite is true.
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- United States
The biggest thing about Taylor and Oz in terms of their growth and development is awareness. Taylor's past experience hammered in her issues, and then she progressed in the spiritual arts which REQUIRE self awareness and analysis at parts- Oz has been stalling on those stages because he is scared that he hasn't changed and Taylor pushed him to stop and brought up his exact issues in a way noone else could due to their similarities. They came to Cradle after having their own previous stories, and issues from their character development in said stories, and confronting and growing past their old flaws is part of what they want to do while in Cradle. Taylor may still be doing some scary things, but now its with an understanding and self awareness and not out of desperation or single mindedness blinding her to the causes and consequences of her actions ie the whole negotiating with people like she is holding a gun to their heads thing Lisa pointed out to her.
Just being aware of and accounting for flaws they were previously oblivious to is a big step for both of them- Taylor is increasingly aware of the consequences of every action she takes and mindful of her past behaviors to keep from going too far, and Oz is increasingly confronted by people who pursuade or force him to play straight with them, when it isn't his growing fondness leading him to be considerate of their condition in ways he never used to be.
I really like how Taylor's confrontation with Northstrider was in the same vein, manipulating/persuading/forcing him to face not only his own flaws, but his actions, culminating in him taking deliberate self reflection to grow as a person.
Just being aware of and accounting for flaws they were previously oblivious to is a big step for both of them- Taylor is increasingly aware of the consequences of every action she takes and mindful of her past behaviors to keep from going too far, and Oz is increasingly confronted by people who pursuade or force him to play straight with them, when it isn't his growing fondness leading him to be considerate of their condition in ways he never used to be.
I really like how Taylor's confrontation with Northstrider was in the same vein, manipulating/persuading/forcing him to face not only his own flaws, but his actions, culminating in him taking deliberate self reflection to grow as a person.
NemiTheNen
Perpetual Phone Poster
Where the actual fuck did you pull this bullshit from?
"Ozmanthus wouldn't learn from the fuckups of other people and would just do it again, despite experiencing the failure from the other side. And then have to kill people he was personally attached to."
If he did get clearance he probably would have gone for a larger group so people could take a break. When I was reading...Reaper? I don't remember. I was struck by the fact that Ozriel couldn't retire.
There was no one else who could do his job. No one to take the burden. So when an iteration failed he had to kill, and kill, and kill. To the point where even he got sick of it.
Makriel wants to turn him into a slave. That's what the executioners were treated like before. Hell. Something like that happens in Threshold. Guess what happened? The bound person had the emotional reaction of wanting to murder the Abidan.
Predictable reaction.
That Ozmanthus totally wouldn't predict
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An important distinction to make is that Ozriel is not actually asking for his own division of helpers who help him reap worlds. Makiel would probably approve that, because Makiel likes the idea of a reaper but hates Eithan specifically. A division of helpers for Eithan gives him the chance to set up a new Reaper who is less of a renegade. But if Eithan actually wanted to retire, he could! The important thing isn't that he specifically has to be the reaper, the important thing is that there must always be a reaper. So long as he set up a suitable successor, he could absolutely hang up his mantle and quit. Eithan was a one in quadrillions talent to find his own method of wielding the Way in the mold of the original court of seven, but taking up an existing mantle, while still an enormous achievement, is probably significantly easier and thus could be accomplished by anyone dedicated enough with the right training. We know this is possible, because without even soliciting Eithan's help Makiel got pretty far making substitute scythes on his own, presumably with the intention of getting his own Reaper of Worlds who would be loyal to his agenda. All of this to say: It isn't that Eithan can't retire, it's just that he has to give a suitable notice first and leave behind a successor.
The thing is, for all that Eithan has many issues being the reaper, and many more issues with his coworkers, he doesn't actually want to quit. He just wants to stop having to reap worlds he feels could have been saved earlier, hence his initiative to restart the Executors under his leadership. My assertion is that this would have crashed and burned if it was approved. I don't think it's controversial to say that Ozmanthus, for all of his skill, was not really a people person. I think the specific instance where he begins to learn to be better in Canon is during the Uncrowned King tournament, where he truly chooses to confide in Lindon and Yerin and then asks, without scruples or deeper schemes, for their help. (This was where he wasn't sure whether to really try to win against Miara or to throw the match.) It wouldn't shock me if this was the first time in his eons long existence where he actually confided his worries and asked for help, and it's a remarkable step for him. Yerin even explicitly tells him here - for all of how she's been through several books worth of shenanigans and adventures with Eithan, she doesn't even slightly trust him, because his goals are too mysterious and he never confides anything of his thoughts to make himself known to her and Lindon at all.
My point is that this step forward is something he only learns to do as Eithan, having gone through several years of character development, both on and offscreen. He has to suffer the terrible defeat of losing his family and Monarch to be humbled and even start to try and loosen up. I don't think he would ever make himself vulnerable in that way to his subordinates were his request for a team of Executors to be granted. Instead, I think he'd puppet them around, making games out of their training but never gaining their trust, in the same way Yerin never trusted Eithan until he opened up. Inevitably, any team that does not trust its leader will become dysfunctional, especially one with such weighty responsibilities and such a lacking support group, since the rest of the Abidan will be actively suspicious of them.
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Quick Q:
Hera exerted significant authority during the brief exchange with Northstrider. Have they gotten to the point where the pair can safely exert more authority than a Monarch without the Mask of Divinity? It's uncertain if Taylor used the technique during the encounter, but overwhelming Northstrider is one of those things that feels like it should require it (at least until Taylor's a Monarch herself, at which point watch out).
Hera exerted significant authority during the brief exchange with Northstrider. Have they gotten to the point where the pair can safely exert more authority than a Monarch without the Mask of Divinity? It's uncertain if Taylor used the technique during the encounter, but overwhelming Northstrider is one of those things that feels like it should require it (at least until Taylor's a Monarch herself, at which point watch out).
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In fairness, Hera is a being that is quite plausibly millions or even billions of years old. Such an existence's authority was always going to be incredibly formidable. I think Hera when Taylor is a monarch would be easily on par with a class 2 threat to the Abidan at least, meaning she warrants multiple teams to combat her.
Damnit, Tagg.
Unrelatedly, you can't even say Taylor tricked Shen here. The Shadow Sage dies, and Shen turns off none of the defences against her and greenlights on-going maintenance for them. Forever.
Bit of a shame that this one now reads "STOP? NO, SHADOW SAGES ALLOWED" but that's hardly on Shen's prep. Honestly Beardy getting merked was a mercy considering the mood he'll be in.
Arcman
Heh
I do hope Taylor robbed everything in the bank like Lindon did in Waybound.
Eithan would absolutely not do that. Lindon, Yerin, Mercy and the rest of their allies are quite literally the last thing holding Ozmanthus back from murdering all the other Judges and Abidan bar Suriel. They are his pillar and if they get fucked over or fail, Eithan is going to clean house and reform the Abidan under his vision. For better or worse.
Eithan would absolutely not do that. Lindon, Yerin, Mercy and the rest of their allies are quite literally the last thing holding Ozmanthus back from murdering all the other Judges and Abidan bar Suriel. They are his pillar and if they get fucked over or fail, Eithan is going to clean house and reform the Abidan under his vision. For better or worse.
I think the person you're quoting is pretty explicitly referring to a hypothetical Eithan pre-series character development. It's hard to argue with, because jerking Lindon around while failing to build trust is a fairly good descriptor of what Eithan was doing in the early books.
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