NemiTheNen
Perpetual Phone Poster
Oh no, that's their oath. They can't fuck with the natural order much, but in return they get super control re the natural order.
Path of the Immeasurable Swarm [Worm/Cradle]
- Thread starter derivativeoflife
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- Crossover
Oh no, that's their oath. They can't fuck with the natural order much, but in return they get super control re the natural order.
I'm not sure I agree, but I'm also not confident I understand what you mean. Ozriel can see through every method of hiding in existence, even while sealed, even while weakened, even without his mantle, presence and Scythe. He doesn't need a trillion different abilities to see through illusions if his authority as a spider can already see through them all. The one only exceptions to his sight is others using concepts.
I think examples could help me better understand your point. Like is their specific ability you had in mind that would really help the Judges out?
Being narrower doesn't really mean anything by itself. Jake has only a handful of perception abilities, but if you combined every ability of every Entity in all of Worm they wouldn't be able to effect Jake's bloodline perception ability in any way, shape or form.
"No buts. It isn't a question of strength either, but one of rules and absolutes. A Bloodline operates on a different spectrum than skills or regular magic. It ignores all rules and acts as it is meant to act in all circumstances. You have a spherical perception ability of sorts, right?" Jake quickly confirmed with a nod. "Well, that's an absolute. AKA, it doesn't give a flying fuck about anything."
That includes the System which is omnipotent, as the System is what makes Bloodlines absolutes.
Time manipulation isn't that impressive to Judges. A side effect of their fight in Fathom retroactively rewrote the past of the universe, so that cities and their inhabitants suddenly existed. As I mentioned before, Ozriel has an acausality feat. Then there's the fact that the Rune Queen froze a city in time for a thousand years, and it didn't last longer only because someone broke the time lock.
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Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
What does primal hunter has to do with it, a brief look says it has no connection to the cradle multiverse.
And no, variety is is pretty damm important, case to point, if the judges had the entities' social thinker abilities, they would be in better position.
Obviously pretty limited, as they can't go to the past just before Ozriel left.
There is a difference between fixing an interaction and full on time travel, I don't say they necessarily can't, but there is a limit, a point in which they can't just go, otherwise time wouldn't mean anything to people outside the iteration and it obviously does.
If they can full on go to the padt, than similarly to the entities, it is hard.
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Primal Hunter is not connected to Cradle. I was trying to express that simply having a narrow or wide variety of powers means nothing and isn't a valid argument when it's so dependent on the series itself. I attempted this to be an reinforcement of the first point I made, where I stated that Ozriel can already see through all methods of hiding in existence, with the only exceptions being those that are purely conceptual in nature. Having Entity technology would not change this.
"High-ranking Abidan could see through any disguise, so he would be found eventually, but he needed to make this chance last as long as possible."
"They employed every method to hide and disguise themselves. And, against Gerravon's expectations, their transport made it through the Void portal. He let out a breath of relief, and someone clapped him on the shoulder. He assumed it was one of the bridge crew until, with a chill, he realized his Presence hadn't detected anyone next to him."
Ok, but here's the problem: that kind of time travel can't even exist within the Way because, like AI, Will doesn't like it for meta-storytelling reasons. It would be like asking why we don't create a Path to Victory in real life. That's simply not possible given the constraints of our reality. It would be like me saying Entities would have a lot less trouble with entropy if they just touched the Way. Yes, but the Way doesn't even exist for them—that simply isn't something they can do.
"And I get to tell you how time works and so that's how it works...You can't exactly time travel like you think of movie time traveling and you can't exactly go to an alternate timeline like you would think of that."
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Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
I mean, the entities can't hide anything from judges, the entities can engineer social situations perfectly if they wished, which is a power that is incredibly useful no matter what.
We are talking about joint multiverse now, and what the entities can do that is beneficial as the judges can't do it yet.
We already know what the judges can do that entities can't, that being authority manipulation and their roles as pillars of the way.
The thing is that he uses conceptual powers in the first place.
For example, let's say someone has a conceptual power to See. He can see everything, no matter how far, no matter how it is obscured or hidden and so on, and so on. This hypothetical guy sees everything. But he can't listen, he can't touch, he has no power to affect what he sees. He has no support skills to actually make use of it unless he works with say a guy who can Punch. He is basically Clairvoyant on godlike steroids.
The same is true for Judges. They have their main authority and a couple support concepts, and periodically they will need to use them in ways they are absolutely not meant to be used because they literally have nothing else besides them.
Entities on the other hand have very little in way of Authority, very few of their powers are absolute or close enough but in exchange they have a full on comprehensive tool set of support abilities. When an Entity sees something it also can interact with it in a myriad of ways, from simply examining models, to actually looking into the future (if in a limited way), punching it, licking it, building a copy of it and so on, and so on.
I get what you're saying and this is getting pedantic on my end but I feel compelled to point this out. Engineering social situations perfectly is not incredibly useful "no matter what". To go back to Primal Hunter, this wouldn't work on Jake as his Bloodline tells him when others are trying to manipulate him via instincts. It doesn't matter how perfectly an Entity engineers a social situation when dealing with Jake, his Bloodline will warn him because the System made it an absolute.
Perfect social engineering means nothing if the character with that power is a normal human and Ozriel is right in front of them. Try to social engineer your way out of Ozriel accelerating to 500 million times the speed of light and killing you before you can even do anything.
Oh, I was talking about within the context of their own series so when you responded I kind of assumed you were doing that as well. Given that Will thinks PtV and a Presence's connection to fate are comparable idk how entity social engineering would work in the wider multiverse. I mean the Judges have personality models of each other and they still didn't predict Ozriel leaving. Does that mean they aren't perfect or Ozriel can hide from those types of predictions conceptually, or both. I don't really know.
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It's the same problem Entities have and why they prevent most of their Shards from predicting each other's futures. Even PtV has limitations around triggers and a few other problematic points.
The problem is simple - if you know that they know than they know that you know. And if your methods of prediction are comparably effective you both enter a prediction loop which ends when one of you runs out of power or makes a mistake.
Abidan can't completely exhaust their powers, probably, but they very well can temporary wreck themselves by effectively dueling each other through precognition. Their models would be imperfect since to create a perfect model you must have complete real time data flow from your targets - It's entirely possible by combining multiple concepts as long as your target doesn't resist. But I doubt even among Judges there are many who would be okay with such an invasion.
EDIT: Don't forget that Judges and Abidan in general basically are their concepts and spirit. Any model of Abidan level being is basically just making a photo of their mind and soul.
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- Pronouns
- She/Her
This is only because of artificial limitations Eden put on PtV to fuck over Contessa. PtV is completely capable of simulating and predicting everything, and the Entities are completely capable of perfectly predicting an entire cycle, they just don't do it because it's more energy efficient to let it actually play out.
Full on Titan Taylor would start breaking Cradle a bit or super buff the Dreadgods and would likely need to be yoinked from Cradle. But Ozzy getting a friend who could hold their own against him both socially and power wise would do him a lot of good.
Oh yeah newly ascended Monarchs are talented and impressive recruits but they're not Judge level. Though I'd say with QA Titan Taylor would get one hell of a boost to the point where she's not Judge level but would be able to grow to that level relatively easily and without a Judge mantle.
If Taylor leveraged all of the Shardspace's authority and specialization it would be possible.
Shards would really love Madra and the Herald advancement but Sage and Authority stuff would be tricky for most of them.
They're running around in meat suits but are pretty much god level creatures.
Shards have a lot of cheats.
Normally I would agree, but in this crossover we actually don't have proof of QA using any Madara for herself, and we have proof of her mastering Authority! I agree that they probably won't get Icons and Sage Advancement outside of Cradle, but in this crossover they should manage Authority pretty well, after getting those Shard-Talk instructions from QA.
Well, Madra is useless outside of Cradle and its alternates. Authority is not.
Madra isn't that groundbreaking for Shards even if they could use it in Earth Bet cluster. Without some Authority and Soulfire you can't even go above Gold with it.
Madra works just fine outside of Cradle. If it didn't work, any archlords who managed to ascend, like Markuth, would've been screwed
Madra is CRAZY useful for Shards. The very thing that Shards are looking for is a method to break Enthropy. Shards are FUNDAMENTALLY limited by conservation of energy and second law of thermodynamics! They can do a lot just be extracting heat energy of one planet across dimensions, but they are limited.
Now Madara! Even if all Shards with Madra were stuck at Gold, they could still cheat out a lot of Madra by forming trillions of simulacrum creatures with cycling techniques designed for the most Regen and THEY WOULD BE PUTTING A LOT OF ENERGY OUT OF THIN AIR! Madra is literally perpetuum mobile!
Even if they didn't gain any new abilities because of Madra, just the fact that they could regenerate their stores of Energy would put them at a completely different stage of power!
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I suspect that this would probably create more hunger aura then a dozen monarchs tho and the shards would have to down-scale to keep reality from breaking.
The issue of hunger aura is conceptual in nature and not truly about raw power. Cradle could hold any number of heralds or sages, which is why the gang isn't worried about them not ascending. Every herald and sage on the planet would exceed the raw power of a single Monarch. However, if even one Monarch existed on Cradle for long enough, they would begin to generate hunger aura.
"It is a corruption of the natural order of Cradle," he went on. "A manifestation of ambition, of selfish desire. Created by the presence of the Monarchs."
Why? Don't they still have connection to the Way through their Authority? That's the whole point of why only Heralds, Sages and Monarchs can actually ascend without someone else holding their hand. And everyone they take with them either piggy backs on their Authority or Abidan are keeping them alive.
Though everyone above Gold should have some Authority over themselves. Even if a very minor one.
Also the whole point of the worlds in the Way is that each of them has its own unique natural laws even if some of them, those that contribute to humans existing, are shared.
All sentient and sufficiently human beings have a connection to the Way through their souls, but true Sage Authority stems from an Icon. There are different levels of Authority, but the amount an Archlord would ascend with would not be enough to do much of anything.
"Don't worry too much, though; it won't be too long before you join me yourself, Pride. Herald, Sage, doesn't matter. Even some Archlords make it out by their own power."
We see people using energy systems from outside the universe in which they originated; that's essentially what the Horseman does. Suriel can still use her old powers even in a dying world where the Way is weak. In fact, one of the benefits of having that old magic system to fall back on is that it's not as reliant on the Way. Lindon is actively using Madra in his fight outside of Cradle, and Lirin has a functioning Madra system despite being born in an entirely different universe.
"As the sentient population fell, the power of chaos grew stronger. And the Way more distant. Which made precisely pinpointing anyone's location almost impossible, at least for an Abidan. She had relied on her old powers, following the trail of Mu Bak Ti Yan's life-force, but the corruption of reality interfered with that as well."
"Pardon, I was lost in thought. Don't worry too much. All you have to do is put your hand into the bowl and cycle your madra."
I would just like to clarify this, the thing the Entities are after isn't solving the Entropy problem.
The entities know for a fact that the number of universes is limited, absurdly huge, but still not infinite.
Because of this there will come a time when entities will have no more room to reproduce, and they will be forced into the same situation they were on their homeworld, and that is the problem they are trying to solve.
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
The universe infinitely expand, they can make sub dimensions and can expand space themselves, they also shown limit on energy (scion burning lifespan to use power, the shards being set for planned 300 years).
So beating entropy, aka, making energy from nothing, will allow them to infinitely breed, space itself isn't the problem, there isn't enough matter to fill it anyway as it is.
From what I remember it wasn't about lack of space on their planet, but lack of resources on their planet. For each planet they go they use up all it's resources and then destroy it across all universes. If they wanted more space they wouldn't be destroying those planets. They destroy them because without the resources the planets are useless to them.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Will Wight quote that's relevant to this discussion of Madra/Cradle/Ascending. Dreadgod Release Stream
I think it's a little bit of both. Madra can still be produced by your core and you can use it for attacks, but aura doesn't exist, so it's hard to advance and slow to replenish your reserves. If you ascend under your own power, even if you're just an archlord and not a sage, then your abilities are kinda axiomatically backed up by the conceptual framework of the way so you can just ignore the absence of aura, but if you aren't then you probably need specialized technology in order to generate aura so that you can advance and use the sacred arts on a regular basis as usual. Will's talked about it.
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The comment was specifically about Marda not working at all outside of the original universe. Or more specifically that Marda was completely useless once you ascended. Aura wasn't part of the original discussion. I know that aura gets weird because once you ascend, you gain authority to directly command whatever your ruler technique was used on.
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