Fencer
Writer
- Location
- 2nd shift
- Pronouns
- He/Him
By Shen's own words he has some connection to the void icon, but not enough to manifest it.
Path of the Immeasurable Swarm [Worm/Cradle]
- Thread starter derivativeoflife
- Start date
- Crossover
Taylor has a history of screwing Shen over and escaping him and I'd love to see it continue until she's strong enough to wreck him.
Manifestation and connection are two different things, connection is the stage before manifestation, Shen is connected to the Void Icon but hasn't manifested it, Taylor is connected to the Oracle and Crown Icons but hasn't manifested it, Taylor has manifested the Shadow Icon. Taylor learning how to read people more with dream stuff, use her combat precognition (it was there), and Weave of Fate will grow her connection to the Oracle Icon to help her manifest it. Taylor helping to lead the Akura Clan, looking more into mind control stuff and her relationship with QA will help her develop the Crown more and eventually manifest it.
- Location
- washington
Still kinda fucked Taylor's probably prevented the hammer icon for lindon since it's likely that will let him create new iterations since it's focused on creation and his void themes.
NemiTheNen
Perpetual Phone Poster
Lindon didn't get the hammer icon until much much MUCH later
- Location
- washington
Yes? I'm saying he's unlikely to get it now I believe which you know is kinda fucked since it's fairly likely it'd of been used to create new iterations in the far future when paired with the void icon. It makes so much sense that London would turn into someone who could create something from the void with it in the far future but I feel that's probably been segued which is a giant tragedy.
- Location
- washington
Also for the lesbian thing I don't really know I kinda dislike it mainly because I've formed a fairly heavy dislike for lesbian pairings on characters that have never been shown to be gay. Someone like Rin tohsaka I can get because she's been told to be bi I can also understand a lot of magical girls since a lot of them are clearly gay or bi. But for example all the various gay Taylor fics annoy me to some level or another. Not enough to bash the fics or anything it just annoys me the same way if someone changed Batman into a homosexual or something to that affect.
Thanks for the chapter, it is excellent.
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
It isn't that simple, if it was, the abidan would be making worlds, to make worlds you need to become the concept of creation, Ozriel wasn't the reaper until he created his scyth, before it, all his destruction powers didn't allow him to destroy worlds until he made that step.
Getting the hammer icon is just a tiny step on this journey.
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- Location
- washington
Yes? There's a reason why I said far future but it's pretty obvious hinting with his themes he will eventually do it. I just figured if he never gets those icons here he will never do said iteration shit in a thousand years.
Fencer
Writer
- Location
- 2nd shift
- Pronouns
- He/Him
One we have zero indication that's what Lindon will end up doing in the far future given where the story ends and how far he would have to go to get to the level of a judge. Two, just because the story isn't playing out in the same order doesn't mean he won't get the hammer icon, and it's always possible he'll develop that depth of understanding after ascending. He's still an accomplished soulsmith, and we have… a whole hell of a lot to get through before this story is over. Plenty of time for him to find another way to the hammer icon.
- Location
- washington
I mean thematically it's pretty fitting for the guy with themes of void and hammer as it relates to creation to do the opposite of what his teacher does and create iterations from the void. We know the hammer has creation themes in it in universe when it comes to his hammer icon and the void is all about something from nothing. Not to mention the connection to the hammer symbol of the guy who could create iterations and the theme of Lindons teacher make it at least a decently good bet he will get there eventually in canon. Not that I think we will ever truly know.
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I love how stupid his reasoning is. His brother's victim had powerful relatives, so the government arresting and executing the brother really only served to prevent Sesh and his adoptive parents from also getting killed by the vengeful clan. He's turned his entire existence into raging against his own survivor's guilt.
Now I'm really hoping Taylor and Hera come up with a way to force Ascensions. Kicking Northstrider into his own personal hell seems like a fitting end to such a coward.
I mean, this is the guy who thought(in canon) that Sha Miara siding with Emriss over him despite the fact that he's an unrepentant backstabber, was a result of Emriss manipulating her.
The man has zero self-awareness. And zero percent chance of manifesting the Knowledge Icon. Northstrider has a higher chance of manifesting that Icon.
NemiTheNen
Perpetual Phone Poster
Why do you think he won't get it? It's not likely he is going to give up on making stuff
I mean, Northstrider did strive for knowledge with his oracle codex project etc. Yes, he became a hypocrite after becoming a monarch (what else is new) but he did legit look for knowledge. He probably does have a chance of manifesting such an icon.
As mentioned, Icons are not 'this singular interpretation' of a concept, but are broad enough that the Hammer Icon, for example, can be both used for creating things...and also as the conceptual force of hitting things really hard with a blunt surface. So you could probably get away with having low self awareness if you valued learning things hard enough.
Yeah it's connected to the nature of who a person is, I imagine sufficient age and working to make yourself a certain way could make a connection but it wouldn't be as natural as an Icon gain through being yourself.
He's a extension of his own trauma inflicting himself and that trauma unto others.
Which is really ironic given that Sacred Arts once you get to Lord level requires more and more self awareness and Monarchs by virtue of that should have a lot.
Northstrider has been learning a lot, pushing boundaries and searching for knowledge in a way that is honestly really impressive so he could qualify for such an Icon.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
It seems pretty common for Monarchs to have understood themselves at some point, then casually discarded that understanding to continue on.
Monarchs suffer from bad sequel disease. They all presumably went through a phase where they scraped themselves together and built something amazing, but after a few hundred years it seems like they got a new writer who didn't really respect or understand the journey that got them to monarch status.
Lenimentus
Ignorant but learning.
I think the monarchs being awful, and seemingly not having self awareness, makes sense for at least a couple of reasons.
The first reason is that understanding yourself doesn't really do anything to improve yourself. Like, they say the first step in fixing a problem is realizing you have a problem, but that's the first step out of a journey that takes hundreds or thousands of steps, and lot of the subsequent steps are harder. The underlord, overlord and archlord revelations are all, quite frankly, first steps, they aren't the journey.
The second reason is that understanding yourself doesn't equate to understanding other people. It might even make that harder. When Sha Miara sided with Emriss and Shen thought it was Emriss manipulating her, it's not because he doesn't have self awareness, it's because he did, and thinks other people think like him. He can't imagine a fellow monarch being benevolent, it's simply not in the scope of his understanding.
Well, that's how I rationalize their actions, anyway.
The first reason is that understanding yourself doesn't really do anything to improve yourself. Like, they say the first step in fixing a problem is realizing you have a problem, but that's the first step out of a journey that takes hundreds or thousands of steps, and lot of the subsequent steps are harder. The underlord, overlord and archlord revelations are all, quite frankly, first steps, they aren't the journey.
The second reason is that understanding yourself doesn't equate to understanding other people. It might even make that harder. When Sha Miara sided with Emriss and Shen thought it was Emriss manipulating her, it's not because he doesn't have self awareness, it's because he did, and thinks other people think like him. He can't imagine a fellow monarch being benevolent, it's simply not in the scope of his understanding.
Well, that's how I rationalize their actions, anyway.
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- Location
- western US
fair points: I think there's also a dimension of "self awareness" not being a singular trait but instead a conflating term for a whole bundle of different things that go together to make up a person.
you can be VERY self-aware in terms of your own thoughts---my "internal voice" is well defined enough to me that its like speaking, but for other people to my understanding they just "float past" so-to-speak without ever visiting their language centers--at least till they take the time to do a full "translation".....
you can also be self aware/not of your emotions, and separately of your motivations, and again separately of your own bad/good traits.
all of these things people vary a lot in between and even moment to moment let alone across entire days or years of these artists who get entire millenia to "perfect" themselves.
From what I have seen; the overlord/etc revelations etc, all pertain to your motivations and your history and everything else only tangentially or through those first two things. This leaves ALOT of room for somebody to be both extremely strong-willed, extremely self-knowledgable (in the particular ways required to step up)....yet still very much describable as "self-blind" in multiple, critical ways.
Theres also a huge incentive for these people to hyper focus on particular forms of self-knowledge which I suspect leads to them being under equipped in others.
Lord revalations are not Radiant Ideals that bind you into acting a certain way and they can be anything, not just positives. After centuries of life the weight of those revalations will fade.
The journey that got them to Monarch was unrelenting violence and winning the competition for resources. I'm not surprised they don't make the best people much less leaders. I mean Ozmanthus is considered the greatest Sacred Artist to have ever existed and he sees no problems with massacring civilians and taking peoples families as hostages. I'd argue he actively looks down on others for their unwillingness to do so.
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I think that, simply, their self awareness was outdated.
Monarchs are immortal but not unchanging. I think the lack of self awareness is a result of the unstoppable march of time, lack of vigilance and disconnection from their less long lived and powerful subjects.
They thought they transcended mortality and shed the weakness of simple flesh but in their spirit they carry the potential for the same foibles as any other person.
It is the human Order after all.
Monarchs are immortal but not unchanging. I think the lack of self awareness is a result of the unstoppable march of time, lack of vigilance and disconnection from their less long lived and powerful subjects.
They thought they transcended mortality and shed the weakness of simple flesh but in their spirit they carry the potential for the same foibles as any other person.
It is the human Order after all.
- Location
- USA
Honestly, I'd argue Northstrider is the only one lying to himself.
Sesh's hatred of civilization is extremely petty lashing out at a society that probably disappeared a millennia ago, but it's very honest. He believes power is the only thing that matters, and well, it's Cradle so he's kinda right.
Shen knows exactly the kind of person he is.
Malice is a bit of asshole, but she's not wrong that ascending would endanger her people. As Taylor laid out, it's a prisoner's dilemma. Maybe she should've, like Emriss, worked to eliminate the Dreadgods rather than accept the status quo. But I can't entirely blame her for taking the safer route.
Sesh's hatred of civilization is extremely petty lashing out at a society that probably disappeared a millennia ago, but it's very honest. He believes power is the only thing that matters, and well, it's Cradle so he's kinda right.
Shen knows exactly the kind of person he is.
Malice is a bit of asshole, but she's not wrong that ascending would endanger her people. As Taylor laid out, it's a prisoner's dilemma. Maybe she should've, like Emriss, worked to eliminate the Dreadgods rather than accept the status quo. But I can't entirely blame her for taking the safer route.
I wouldn't say that they're exactly lying to themselves, but they definitely have a very skewed view on the world. In Sesh's ideal society, Lindon would have almost certainly died in childhood and never would have had the chance to become the single most powerful being in Cradle's history. Shen sees every single interaction between people as some kind of manipulation, as previously mentioned. Malice became detached enough to start viewing The Family as something abstract and separate from her actual children. Etc etc.