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Overlady: Attack of the Minions (Thread II)

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BadRoad said:
Is that really a good/evil thing or just the nature of asymmetrical warfare?
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I think it's more of a "nature of national stability in fiction" thing. Whether it's the good kingdom being swallowed by the evil empire or the evil empire being overthrown by the plucky heroes, it's all coming down. Rebuilding from the ashes is possible if your side wins.

Dezo's Law of Fictional National Stability: The instability of any regime extant at the beginning of a story tends towards maximum.
 
BadRoad said:
Is that really a good/evil thing or just the nature of asymmetrical warfare?
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Bloody unfair is what it is, and contradictory too. Good is all about doing the right thing, righteous and honorable and all that sickening bullshit, yet apparently fairness is a virtue they don't abide by. Lacking and/or disregarding virtues is the sole domain of Evil.
 
Formerly said:
Bloody unfair is what it is, and contradictory too. Good is all about doing the right thing, righteous and honorable and all that sickening bullshit, yet apparently fairness is a virtue they don't abide by. Lacking and/or disregarding virtues is the sole domain of Evil.
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Evil is not the type that just disregards or lacks virtues, they simply have a largely different set and extol the shared ones in different manners.
 
xeivous said:
Evil is not the type that just disregards or lacks virtues, they simply have a largely different set and extol the shared ones in different manners.
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And trade unions. Lots and lots of trade unions. All in league with the soul furnace owners to price gouge the living Hell out of any budding Dark Lord.* This extortion racket got so bad it's near impossible to get some actually competent muscle and most have to rely on sub-par (but affordable) grunts.

Naturally the Abyss corporations tolerate all this because they realized ages ago that, in the long run, it's much more profitable to occasionally keep invading the surface then to actually conquer it. And this is also why most successful Evil surface dwellers tend towards the subversion route instead of brute force.

Both approaches do tend to lead into small manpower problems when faced with the occasionally competent Heroes.

*Well, ones that don't have the benefit of an army of Minions.
 
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grimallq said:
And trade unions. Lots and lots of trade unions. All in the league with the soul furnace owners to price gouge the living Hell out of any budding Dark Lord.* This extortion racket got so bad it's near impossible to get actually some actually competent muscle and most have to rely on sub-par (but affordable) grunts.

Naturally the Abyss corporations tolerate all this because they realized ages ago that, in the long run, it's much more profitable to occasionally keep invading the surface then to actually conquer it. And this is also why most successful Evil surface dwellers tend towards the subversion route instead of brute force.

Both approaches do tend to lead into a small manpower problems when faced with the occasional competent Heroes.

*Well, ones that don't have the benefit of an army of Minions.
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One wonders how the run of the mill Forces of Darkness feel about Minions. A slave race that actively puts down any resistance within it's ranks to any idea that isn't serving their Overperson seems like it might give the other Evil leaders ideas. Actually, how does everyone who hasn't expressed an opinion on Minions who is relevant to the plot feel about them as well? It seems like an interesting question in universe.
 
xeivous said:
One wonders how the run of the mill Forces of Darkness feel about Minions. A slave race that actively puts down any resistance within it's ranks to any idea that isn't serving their Overperson seems like it might give the other Evil leaders ideas. Actually, how does everyone who hasn't expressed an opinion on Minions who is relevant to the plot feel about them as well? It seems like an interesting question in universe.
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Previous incarnations of knock-off copies of the Overlord's Minions® have all ended with uncontrollable hordes of self-replicated life force stealing abominations that have soon gone out of control and eaten their creators and been put down by local heroes with only one case of such knockoffs surviving their conception and spreading out into the dark wilderness. These 'Gnomes' have become a nuisance and low-level threat to forces both evil and benign throughout the world.
 
mayordomoGoliat said:
Previous incarnations of knock-off copies of the Overlord's Minions® have all ended with uncontrollable hordes of self-replicated life force stealing abominations that have soon gone out of control and eaten their creators and been put down by local heroes with only one case of such knockoffs surviving their conception and spreading out into the dark wilderness. These 'Gnomes' have become a nuisance and low-level threat to forces both evil and benign throughout the world.
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Fantastic. Now one has to wonder the opinions of the heroic types on the subject of Minions, aside from the obvious "they should all be killed".

Speaking of hero types and killing, I've had a bit of a think and now i'm 100% convinced that Eleanore knows that Louise is the Overlady. Even without anything special on behalf of whatever blessed means of gathering intelligence Eleanore has from prison, she has all the puzzle pieces needed to figure it out without ever having met the Overlady. Eleanore knows that Mags serves the overlady and she knows of the bloodline curse on Mag's branch of the family. Combined with having met Louise a few times and knowing she was missing a bit before the Overlady appeared was all Mags needed to figure things out. Eleanore is also probably smarter than Mags and additionally has the knowledge of Catt having run off to be with the Overlady with the excuse of protecting Louise and also has the testimony of Igni that he never harmed her sister, which could be interpreted (quite correctly) as evidence that Louise isn't actually a prisoner. The only question remaining is if Eleanore requested an audience with the Overlady to off her delusionally evil sister or to threaten to tell mother dearest about her shenanigans in exchange for something.
 
xeivous said:
or to threaten to tell mother dearest about her shenanigans in exchange for something.
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Elanoir: I wish to study that tower heart. I only had small fragments to study, so far, but having access to full artefact!!! *evil laugh or squeaking or something, she is in proximity of too much Evil and having strong evil blood, barely kept under control it seems*

Cattleya: Don't let her Lou! Just you wait and she will again make some mess, maybe even worse then making me a vampire! *at least I got cute puppies and maids out of deal, but still not forgiving!*

Louise: Elanoire... I rule here. Go to your bed without dinner! *you set me up too many night of this, revenge is sweet*

Gnarl: *hmm who could be better Overlady, to stick with pink one or go advise new sister, who might be better at being Evil...*
 
xeivous said:
One wonders how the run of the mill Forces of Darkness feel about Minions. A slave race that actively puts down any resistance within it's ranks to any idea that isn't serving their Overperson seems like it might give the other Evil leaders ideas.
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The relationship seems more symbiotic really.

The minions need an Overlord for guidance, to direct and empower them. Look at what happens when there isn't one. They accomplish nothing, they lose their hives or split off, and are easily beaten back and their belongings looted. They're a lot like the minions from Despicable Me that way.

The Overlord, meanwhile, is nothing without the Minion Horde and by the time they become something, they are already reliant on the Minions and Gnarl. At this point, the relationship is mutualistic but in the Minions favor. They can, after all, survive without the Overlord. The same can't be said for the other way around except for short periods of time.
 
Ok, guys, what are the odds that Eleonor has accidentaly become a Dark God?

Because for some reason I can not see Karin not uderstanding that not everyone can intimade a dying dark god splatter into not splattering you.
 
Undead-Spaceman said:
The relationship seems more symbiotic really.
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Though minions might also be some kind of corrupting trap or, at least, Gnarl is corrupter.
Here we have Louise who turns from Good to Evil and in first game we were apparently amnesiac Hero who killed previous Overlord as part of group of heroes (or so was thought). Also first Overlord who made minions in this fic, might have been by accident been a (anti)Hero freeing everyone from dragon overlords... but it was by accident as he still pillaged and burned, helped demons to more easily invade and so on? Or what was going on there?

Though there were also Overlords who were evil even before meeting minions, like one we play with in second game? So what criteria minions use to chose Overlords? Louise was more by accidentally binding them as familiars (or was it because of Evil blood)?
ShadowEMT said:
Ok, guys, what are the odds that Eleonor has accidentaly become a Dark God?
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Well a figure was forming into female figure and that was all we know, so possible. After killing Athe, Baelogi might try to attack all suspects who could have brought this mess of Athe trying to kill her.

So Elanoire could be attacked, but cultist who celebrated holiday might also be attacked first. Really doubt it, but then new dark goddess could also be Magdalene. She was in just made holly place, that might have weaken Baelogi a bit, giving Magdalene some small, tiny chance.

Just for fun there is also 0.00000000000000000000001% of Marzipan being new dark goddess. Athe kills Baelogi by magical attack that target soul, but not really damage a body that much to prevent Baelogi body surfing. Then Athe turns to go kill cultists celebrating Christmas Silver Pentacle/Pentecost/Pent-something.... and forgets about second soul in body, gets stabbed in back by Marcipan?

... Guess Elanoire has best chance if anyone has it, along with good chance of joining Louise after this. So Louise would have as lieutenants: vampire, half-demon, necromancer.... and dark goddess or mad scientist?
 
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...Truthfully, I wouldn't call Louise Good at the beginning of FoZ. I mean, maaaaybe in the sense of "Good cuts my paycheck," but she'd need at least six layers of tsun ground off her before you could actually call her a Good person.

Hell, I'd argue that the Evil Overlady at the beginning of the story is a better person than Louise at the beginning of FoZ, simply because abusing Minions is more ethically acceptable than visiting the same abuse on human beings.
 
Might have to recheck anime (too bad how bland setting is, so delaying as much), might also be stupid nobility brat, not so much morality.... but yeah...

Good at very least for not doing stuff like summoning demons (though with how random is familiar summoning... well, there are fanfics where she gets demon, like Earthsocpins mix of FoZ and Exalted?),
mind control/love spell thrown more by "accident" as no one remembered any more how familiar binding spells work?
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Better to forget excuses actually and just take her over knee for spanking, being brat.
 
DezoPenguin said:
...Truthfully, I wouldn't call Louise Good at the beginning of FoZ. I mean, maaaaybe in the sense of "Good cuts my paycheck," but she'd need at least six layers of tsun ground off her before you could actually call her a Good person.

Hell, I'd argue that the Evil Overlady at the beginning of the story is a better person than Louise at the beginning of FoZ, simply because abusing Minions is more ethically acceptable than visiting the same abuse on human beings.
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I'd suspect it would depend on wither your talking light novel, anime or manga Louise.
 
ShadowEMT said:
Ok, guys, what are the odds that Eleonor has accidentaly become a Dark God?

Because for some reason I can not see Karin not uderstanding that not everyone can intimade a dying dark god splatter into not splattering you.
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Eleanore: I'm not a god! And certainly not a dark one!

Shade of Athe: Excellent! You're getting it already!
 
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DezoPenguin said:
...Truthfully, I wouldn't call Louise Good at the beginning of FoZ. I mean, maaaaybe in the sense of "Good cuts my paycheck," but she'd need at least six layers of tsun ground off her before you could actually call her a Good person.
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I don't see how she'd need to lose some tsun to be Good (there is, of course, a massive difference between being a Good person, and being a good person). I mean, this fics Eleanore is a Good person. Compare her to canon Louise.
 
Well, Eleanore is haughty, naggy and always sure of herself to the point that almost no one at all seems to genuinely like her, even her family thinks she is an jerk.

She is still the most Good one out of the sisters and doesn't want to destroy, conquer and murder everything, she's just an jerk, compare that to Louise who wants to be Good but has character flaws that make it hard and her position as Overlady makes it really hard to be an good person.

Canon Louise kidnaps one boy, and then proceeds to whip him, insult him and more just because he is an commoner, then again, Canon Louise is seriously nuts, being very needy, kinda paranoid, having lots of trouble connecting with others, suicidal for stupid reasons, putting too much emphasis on not being able to do magic making her self-confidence low, i mean, i wasn't kidding about the suicidal thing, at one point in the light novel she literally tries to kill herself just because she couldn't find herself having the courage to say she loved Saito and was only saved by accident.

Canon Louise is fucked up is what i am getting at, needs therapy and medication without an doubt, i mean, anyone who tries to kill herself just because she can't say "I love you" is not that right in the head, not to mention whipping someone against their will, i am pretty damn sure Canon Louise is insane.
 
Silentstorm said:
Canon Louise kidnaps one boy, and then proceeds to whip him, insult him and more just because he is an commoner
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... and also because he sexually assaulted her in her sleep. Because that's what he did. Early on - either in Book 1 or Book 2 - he starts feeling her up when she's asleep, and when she wakes she is understandably furious about it. Oh, sorry, was I meant to avoid pointing out that Saito gives as good as he gets and the two of them basically fuel each other.

Silentstorm said:
i wasn't kidding about the suicidal thing, at one point in the light novel she literally tries to kill herself just because she couldn't find herself having the courage to say she loved Saito and was only saved by accident.
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And by that, you mean "In the aftermath of the campaign in Albion, when she thought he was dead, she had a bad case of survivor's guilt - especially because he'd knocked her out and made sure she got out safely, and then single-handedly charged the enemy lines to slow down the oncoming army". And that it's not really that honest to say she tried to kill herself because she couldn't say she loved him, when the much more pressing issue was "she thought that he'd sacrificed his life for her, and he'd done that when she hadn't even ever told him how she felt about him".

Which is, yes, an over-emotional and somewhat melodramatic teenage girl thing to do, but then again, Louise is an over-emotional and somewhat melodramatic teenage girl. She comes by that honestly.
 
Being completely fair, Saito and Louise are both horrible human beings in canon. This is something that's been covered on multiple threads, on multiple forums, and it's a consensus that I think was reached a long time ago.

They are both terrible people.

Now that this has been established, serious question, what does this have to do with Overlady? The Louise in this story isn't her canon self. If Saito's shown up at all, then I haven't cared enough to notice. And the antics that made me frequently shake my head in disgust at the original story haven't happened here.

So why the hell are we talking about shit that isn't at all relevant? I'm desperately confused.
 
Ars Poetica said:
Being completely fair, Saito and Louise are both horrible human beings in canon. This is something that's been covered on multiple threads, on multiple forums, and it's a consensus that I think was reached a long time ago.

They are both terrible people.
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I've never read the LN, but that was absolutely my impression of the anime. My opinion of their romance is "they deserve each other; no one else deserves to be stuck with them."

Now that this has been established, serious question, what does this have to do with Overlady? The Louise in this story isn't her canon self. If Saito's shown up at all, then I haven't cared enough to notice. And the antics that made me frequently shake my head in disgust at the original story haven't happened here.

So why the hell are we talking about shit that isn't at all relevant? I'm desperately confused.
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We were discussing the potential of Good or Evil of various characters. (I blame myself for noting that canon Louise at the beginning of FoZ did not really qualify as Good--and that the Overlady was actually performing fewer Evil acts early on (y'know, before she started letting her Minions running loose where they could rob and kill innocent bystanders and less-innocent mooks).
 
DezoPenguin said:
I've never read the LN, but that was absolutely my impression of the anime. My opinion of their romance is "they deserve each other; no one else deserves to be stuck with them."
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Makes sense, the familiar summoning ritual is meant to bring an familiar that represents the caster's soul, the one most fit for them, since Louise is not a good person, she doesn't get someone good as an familiar.

Then again, the familiar representing the noble just makes it even weirder that she whips and insults Saito that much more, as Saito according to the ritual is the being that represents her the most and the one most suited for her, in a way, abusing your familiar is kinda like abusing an representation of yourself.

But seriously, it's no wonder that a lot of fanfics have nicer more humane Louises, because writers don't really want to write someone like Canon Louise, compare Canon Louise to versions of her like the one in the fic Maid Of Honour(where she summons the Siesta from her world as her familiar instead of Saito) and they are incredibly different, since in Maid, Louise treats Siesta like an human being and never insults her, calls her names and rarely if ever brings up the fact that Siesta is her familiar because she knows it makes it sound like she owns Siesta.

It's funny that many Louises from fanfiction would probably be very disgusted and horrified by Canon Louise.
 
Hey, if Eleonor absorbed Athe's mojo and became a Dark Godess, what would her atributions be?

Would she inherit Athe's thing?
Become a Godess of Magical Philosophy?
Of Sexy Dominatrix Teachers?
Or of Hiding in Terror from Karin?
 
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