On Fluttering Wings [Taylor Hebert in MGLN]

[TheWonko]

What's wrong with the Dewey sorting system?

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To keep things short, it was originally developed in 1876 by a white American unaware of his biases and further revisions have, at best, failed to ease that. A system that has 3/5ths of its "religion" sections focusing exclusively on Christianity with every single other religion shoved in at the back is... less than ideal. The same goes for listing literature categories as "American, English, German, French, Italian, Spanish, Latin, Greek, and then literally every single other language on the planet"

Now, to keep things on topic with a point no one's seemed to notice yet, Taylor just appeared out of nowhere in the middle of one of the most public places on the planet. How will she deal with the people (understandably) freaked out by this?

 

[Mizu]

Now, to keep things on topic with a point no one's seemed to notice yet, Taylor just appeared out of nowhere in the middle of one of the most public places on the planet. How will she deal with the people (understandably) freaked out by this?

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She appeared in a side ally. Might be nobody noticed her?

 

[serra2]

Now, to keep things on topic with a point no one's seemed to notice yet, Taylor just appeared out of nowhere in the middle of one of the most public places on the planet. How will she deal with the people (understandably) freaked out by this?

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"This must make me the Scion of this world! Time to go randomly get kittens out of trees!"

Also, the more I hear the structure of the TSAB described, the worse I think of it.

 

[Eternaly_Lost]

Now, to keep things on topic with a point no one's seemed to notice yet, Taylor just appeared out of nowhere in the middle of one of the most public places on the planet. How will she deal with the people (understandably) freaked out by this?

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It New York city, and she arrived in a sidestreet. They likely didn't even notice. I wouldn't be surprised if Scion showed up there and no one noticed if he flew off.

Most people in New York city are too busy to notice little things like girls appearing out of thin air. Likely there a homeless man that staring at her, and Taylor herself doesn't even notice him as she leaves, being used to them from being in Brockton bay.

 

[Jong]

Yet the part that they called illegal was leaving without permission.

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To extend the analogy a little, suppose the country next to yours doesn't have the facility to operate air traffic control, it would be natural to form an agreement to manage it on their behalf. The analogy breaks down as the TSAB doesn't exactly recognise the sovereignty of Earth, or even the existence of any other peer nations aside from itself.

Thus, the TSAB implicitly claims responsibility for regulating dimensional transference everywhere and not just within their borders, by supposing there's a need for such regulation. Practically, they would only care about regions within their sphere of influence.

So I do think it is justified for them to believe that even her latest transference is within their jurisdiction.

 

[Solacen]

As for Taylor leaving illegally i eould like to point out that its highly likely she might be breaking customs and desease control laws by jumping between worlds with unofficial unlogged dimensional travel. The gov of those worlds doesnt know what Tay may or may not be carrying across borders when ahe jumps.

 

[silverpower]

I strongly suspect that the TSAB is intervening precisely to keep the property damage to a minimum.

So far she has committed two types of crime:
1) mugging muggers, which on her world falls under acceptable vigilantism laws/conventions

2) Dimensionally Transferring in and out of TSAB jurisdiction, the latest incident involving a transfer into UA-97's TSAB covert outpost, and then another transfer in a populated mundane area, which in her original jurisdiction is also (mostly!) considered legally acceptable to do.

So far, what Taylor's done isn't all that big a deal, especially by her society's standards. She'd complete any sentence she receives long before she even finishes a basic Air Forces training programme, and that's assuming they don't just let the Harlaowns handle it informally. Mariposa's a somewhat bigger deal, but compared to what Fate did, or Hayate, for that matter, what the TSAB wants with her so far is to at least get a handle on what the hell Taylor's deal is, not summarily sentence her to lifetime penance in the Air Forces. There isn't a lot of book to throw at Taylor at the moment, especially since Taylor has a good-faith defense of "what I did is more or less legal and socially acceptable on my homeworld, teleporting into a secure zone aside, and I already apologized for that, okay".

 

[QuietlyObserving]

It's fairly easy to be 'good' when there is no rival governments to compare to. TSAB is a defacto empire, with no peer opponents to keep it honest or apply pressure.

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I'm not saying "good compared to other governments in setting." I'm saying by the standards an outside observer can judge a government, it is a good government.

And the concept of peers and opponents to keep you honest is one of the most irritating political concepts ever. Having a rival or opponent of equal power does not mean you suddenly don't do bad things. Usually, in fact, it's the opposite.

See European nations for most of their history, Chinese states for most of their history, Japan's states for most of their history, any set of tribal groups anywhere in history, or just the US and Russia for a good fifty years not that long ago.

Having an opponent who is capable of destroying you does nothing aside from create fear, which is the deadliest poison for peace and growth in existence.

Incidentally, I would argue the TSAB is less an empire and more a militarized UN with greater independence.

As for Taylor leaving illegally i eould like to point out that its highly likely she might be breaking customs and desease control laws by jumping between worlds with unofficial unlogged dimensional travel. The gov of those worlds doesnt know what Tay may or may not be carrying across borders when ahe jumps.

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In story, she was a file opened as a runaway. Not a criminal, just a runaway. Police do open those cases, even when the subject has committed no crime.

I'd imagine her teleporting to UW 97 is illegal because of the TSAB's policy of non-interference with worlds until they are ready for contact. Having seen her jumping about in TSAB space, it's reasonable for them to expect her to know the rules. Similarly, teleporting into and out of a TSAB base is wrong in the same way that accidentally walking onto a US military base then trying to run out the gate is wrong. It is to the TSAB's credit that there are only teleportation blockers and not more lethal means of preventing escape.

But considering the TSAB's usual policies, her ignorance is actually an acceptable explanation.

 

[Stardust Falcon]

Is what Taylor did even illegal?

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Baughn's got it essentially correct with this quote:

I'm not sure the TSAB operates on laws, so much as loose guidelines. They're large enough that there have to be rules, but they might be rules more akin those in a code of engagement. With, over the last seventy years, an extra-large helping of custom and habits; UK common law style.

I don't know if you noticed, but we never really see Nanoha or any other of their agents worry about law, legalities, or responsibility to anyone but their superiors and their own consciences. I think there's a reason for that.

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What Taylor is probably legally guilty of is 'jumping into a secured facility on a world whose development we're nominally trying not to interfere in (but we're here anyway because every time someone on this backwater rock sneezes it activates some Lost Logia or other, also, please ignore the retirees and vacationers who are here from TSAB space).'

But as she hasn't really done anything "that can't be taken back" (to quote Reflection) this crime for which the severity can be anything from 'capital offense' all the way down to 'you're basically jaywalking in space' is falling way more on the (per @silverpower's quote) 'let Hayate-chan/Chrono-kun deal with the paperwork, and don't worry, you're going to be okay now' side of the scale.

Barring any critical communication failures it's likely they wouldn't even actually arrest her for this; at worst, it'd be a Nove/Einhart early-Vivid deal unless Taylor went full String Theory and tried to take the Earth hostage by threatening to blow up the moon or something. (And, not to spoil the next episode or anything, but Taylor will not be suddenly escalating to turbo supervillainy.)

Or in other words...

Yet the part that they called illegal was leaving without permission.

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...the actual relevant legal code doesn't matter because what Taylor is actually guilty of is failure to explain herself, being a person of significant power, and most importantly, 'pressing Nanoha's [sad eyes/lonely/needs help] button.'

 

[serra2]

I'm not saying "good compared to other governments in setting." I'm saying by the standards an outside observer can judge a government, it is a good government.

And the concept of peers and opponents to keep you honest is one of the most irritating political concepts ever. Having a rival or opponent of equal power does not mean you suddenly don't do bad things. Usually, in fact, it's the opposite.

See European nations for most of their history, Chinese states for most of their history, Japan's states for most of their history, any set of tribal groups anywhere in history, or just the US and Russia for a good fifty years not that long ago.

Having an opponent who is capable of destroying you does nothing aside from create fear, which is the deadliest poison for peace and growth in existence.

Incidentally, I would argue the TSAB is less an empire and more a militarized UN with greater independence.

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Except, according to people on this thread, it's a straight up military dictaorship formed via a coup decades ago, that is willing to stomp local governments to get it's way when needed, that is answerable to no one, and is basically good because the Author made it Good. It's a rightwing Baen fantasy government, except instead of being control by Hard Marines making Hard Decisions while Hard, it's run by cute Magical Girls who like tea parties.

 

[Doctor_Hayden]

...Ok, so either the TSAB ain't that bad or it's, collectively, an asshole.

 

[green-link94]

Except, according to people on this thread, it's a straight up military dictaorship formed via a coup decades ago, that is willing to stomp local governments to get it's way when needed, that is answerable to no one, and is basically good because the Author made it Good. It's a rightwing Baen fantasy government, except instead of being control by Hard Marines making Hard Decisions while Hard, it's run by cute Magical Girls who like tea parties.

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Something i will point out here is that everything they have said is speculation on their part the actual workings and political situation of the TSAB isn't discussed much in the series and we only have bits and pieces of the protagonist roles in the organisation and some smaller bits like their policy on interacting with non-administered world from side materials. Much of how the TSAB functions is unkown basically.

 

[FailLord]

Wait, where did the part about the coup come from, I remember that it was created by survivors of the last apocalyptic war who wished not to fight anymore.

 

[Phant0m5]

Except, according to people on this thread, it's a straight up military dictaorship formed via a coup decades ago, that is willing to stomp local governments to get it's way when needed, that is answerable to no one, and is basically good because the Author made it Good. It's a rightwing Baen fantasy government, except instead of being control by Hard Marines making Hard Decisions while Hard, it's run by cute Magical Girls who like tea parties.

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Not really? The TSAB formed because they were the only ones left after Belka imploded. That's not a coup, that's an "after the apocalypse" government.

Also, it's a bureau, not an army or a coalition or an empire. We see a lot of the military side of things because that's most of what the anime is about, but that doesn't make it a military dictatorship. We just aren't actually seeing the bureaucracy - presumably the TSAB's primary role - at work in the background.

Basically, we don't know enough about the TSAB's actual inner workings to properly define them, but all signs point to them being legitimately good people doing legitimately good work.

Spoiler: Speculation

Based on what we do know and have seen, I have two different opinions on the TSAB.

Admittedly, this mostly just needs to tie into how the TSAB has a non-interference policy for worlds who can't reach them by their own means. One point of data does not a trend make. However, it's what we have to work with. So on that note:

One is that they exist as a super-nation. The idea that the TSAB is a distinct government that absorbs smaller nations into them. But, considering what we know about them, it's quite likely that if there's an existing polity on a given world who does not want to join the TSAB, they can continue to exist on their own at the fringes of TSAB space. There's probably trade and diplomacy and all those other international things going on, in that case, unless the new world is SUPER xenophobic or something.

This is not my preferred interpretation, but it's possible. I don't think it's particularly likely though.

The other possibility is that the TSAB exists as, basically, Space!UN, if the UN was also its own nation. A federation, if the core polity was literally called "The Federation". The idea that distinct nations continue to operate as distinct nations, but under a joint banner of the TSAB, which is also the core polity on MidChilda.

Oh, hey, I just described Star Trek.

... there needs to be a Star Trek/Nanoha crossover.

 

[Eidorian999]

Except, according to people on this thread, it's a straight up military dictaorship formed via a coup decades ago, that is willing to stomp local governments to get it's way when needed, that is answerable to no one, and is basically good because the Author made it Good. It's a rightwing Baen fantasy government, except instead of being control by Hard Marines making Hard Decisions while Hard, it's run by cute Magical Girls who like tea parties.

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You are deliberately phrasing things in a way that is only barely true, solely for the purpose of putting the TSAB in the worst possible light.

Let me put it this way: I'd trust the TSAB to have my best interests at heart than any government on earth, and I'd certainly trust it over you.

 

[Doctor_Hayden]

...Is this gonna turn into a political debate? I'm afraid that it's gonna turn into a political debate.

 

[green-link94]

Wait, where did the part about the coup come from, I remember that it was created by survivors of the last apocalyptic war who wished not to fight anymore.

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Pretty much Saint king Olivie used the Cradle to end the unifcation wars which if i remember the lore correctly caused a temporary peace and then some stuff not elaborated on happened and 150 years later the TSAB was born with the help of the 3 brains from strikers then about 75 years after something else happened also not elaborated much on but thanks to three people who are known as the 3 legendary Admirals the current state and peace of TSAB space was solidified and was the start of the new calender used by the TSAB which would make the TSAB 150 years old as of strikers.

 

[serra2]

You are deliberately phrasing things in a way that is only barely true, solely for the purpose of putting the TSAB in the worst possible light.

Let me put it this way: I'd trust the TSAB to have my best interests at heart than any government on earth, and I'd certainly trust it over you.

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I, too, would trust a magical fantasy government that has managed to eliminate corruption and self interest from it's ranks over any real world government.

 

[Baughn]

Wait, where did the part about the coup come from, I remember that it was created by survivors of the last apocalyptic war who wished not to fight anymore.

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You're mostly right. The way that works out, it was probably legally a coup in at least many of their cases, because the way chains of command work you'd probably have to outright destroy the planet to fully eliminate all civilian oversight. And most of these places wouldn't be in shape to even consider this sort of drastic political change, let alone get it past a popular vote.

(Not that they'd all be democracies. The alternatives have analogous issues of legitimacy.)

The TSAB was formed as the union of various *opposed* militaries, during wartime, which is okay according to no set of laws ever. Even in those cases where political leadership was intact and on board with it, there would have been no hope of gaining legitimacy for that decision.

Except ... except if the war had gone on any longer then humanity might well have gone extinct. There was no shortage of self-sustaining apocalyptic weapons, and at some point they'd have lost the ability to stop the Book of Darkness or Mariage. Hence, the war had to stop, and it had to stop right then.

These are conditions in which good men could sensibly consider a dramatic, nation-destroying coup. Of course, since it worked, it's very unlikely that history books will call it that.

 

[Phant0m5]

I, too, would trust a magical fantasy government that has managed to eliminate corruption and self interest from it's ranks over any real world government.

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Right. Let's put it this way.

The TSAB is likely to be, essentially, The Federation from Star Trek. Midchilda is essentially Earth, both a founding member of the Federation and someone who has actually taken the Federation as a whole as their primary government.

We have very little data on the TSAB's inner workings, but the data we do have points toward this situation.

Also, like the Federation, there is corruption and self-interest. It just doesn't spread very far.

(unrelated: I want to see some Trek/MGLN crossovers. )

 

[Baughn]

I've been thinking about Mariposa's situation.

The unification wars lasted a long time, and got worse over time. Mariposa is probably from somewhere near the beginning; she was surprised and shocked when the planetbusters came out, and also she gives off a kind of "formal military" vibe that was notably missing in many places towards the end.

This, and the fact that she didn't recognize any of the destinations available, means that... Unfortunately, her home is probably gone. Destroyed; at least bombed to the bedrock, but likely as not just gone. We don't know how many planets the Book of Darkness went through, or the Mariage, or... well, I don't think those were the only two.

Sorry, Mariposa. You might be the only person remaining who recalls a time before civilization fell. Because, let's be honest -- Mid is a pretty decent place, but they're operating with the equivalent of 1900s technology where Mariposa would be used to late 21st century tech.

That might not be too obvious yet, but she'll figure it out as soon as they stop running.

 

[Eidorian999]

I've been thinking about Mariposa's situation.

The unification wars lasted a long time, and got worse over time. Mariposa is probably from somewhere near the beginning; she was surprised and shocked when the planetbusters came out, and also she gives off a kind of "formal military" vibe that was notably missing in many places towards the end.

This, and the fact that she didn't recognize any of the destinations available, means that... Unfortunately, her home is probably gone. Destroyed; at least bombed to the bedrock, but likely as not just gone. We don't know how many planets the Book of Darkness went through, or the Mariage, or... well, I don't think those were the only two.

Sorry, Mariposa. You might be the only person remaining who recalls a time before civilization fell. Because, let's be honest -- Mid is a pretty decent place, but they're operating with the equivalent of 1900s technology where Mariposa would be used to late 21st century tech.

That might not be too obvious yet, but she'll figure it out as soon as they stop running.

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I wouldn't say the difference is quite that stark. Remember, the TSAB have the Arc En Ciel, which seems to be a standard for ships above a certain class, or that are expecting to face exceptionally dire circumstances. The fact they can install it whenever implies they fully understand it, meaning it isn't a Lost Logia and thus, is not something Ancient Belka had.

In spite of it's seemingly endless love for impossibly destructive super weapons.

 

[serra2]

I've been thinking about Mariposa's situation.

The unification wars lasted a long time, and got worse over time. Mariposa is probably from somewhere near the beginning; she was surprised and shocked when the planetbusters came out, and also she gives off a kind of "formal military" vibe that was notably missing in many places towards the end.

This, and the fact that she didn't recognize any of the destinations available, means that... Unfortunately, her home is probably gone. Destroyed; at least bombed to the bedrock, but likely as not just gone. We don't know how many planets the Book of Darkness went through, or the Mariage, or... well, I don't think those were the only two.

Sorry, Mariposa. You might be the only person remaining who recalls a time before civilization fell. Because, let's be honest -- Mid is a pretty decent place, but they're operating with the equivalent of 1900s technology where Mariposa would be used to late 21st century tech.

That might not be too obvious yet, but she'll figure it out as soon as they stop running.

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Man, that's pretty rough. On the plus side, a whole lot of people will be interested in her for the things she knows.

 

[Xon]

Does the TSAB have any concept of limited jurisdiction? Or respect for sovereignty of other countries? Suppose Taylor went to the government of the USA she just landed in, told them she's an alternate-dimensional citizen who's being persecuted by magical space aliens, demonstrated some magic and was promptly granted asylum and all the funding she wants as long as she's willing to teach some of this to the locals. Would the TSAB keep hunting her down even if it meant engaging in open combat with US military or police forces?

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The foundation of TSAB's mandate explicitly rejects the concept of sovereignty for countries/planets, because they are a post-apocalyptic organisation formed after too many +5 Artifact of World Destroying were used. Sure they try not to cause to much in the way cultural and social disruption, but this is because they aren't jerks.

TSAB is also incredibly permissive in what they will let people get away with, Taylor probably would just get a talking to for leaving the local drunk tank without permission but nothing much else. Possible some mandatory counseling of some sort.

TASB care far more about having stable individuals with city-busting powers than strict rule-of-law that RL is used to.

Democracy still exists, on a local level. Administered Planets are still mostly self-administrating, so long as they avoid breaking anything; the TSAB's official powers are probably infinite, but habitually stop at the stratosphere for anything but capturing dimensional criminals or dealing with Lost Logia -- which are the equivalent of nuclear mines, half the time. That's not to say that they can't override the locals when they feel like it. There was a minor conflict between Midchildan authorities and the TSAB in the middle of StrikerS, where Midchilda was completely swept aside the moment Hayate found a decent excuse.

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As a reminder when Fate and Nanoha were 9, they almost erased a large chunk of Japan fighting over a single Jewel Seed. Nuclear mine may be under selling it!

 

[M. H. Fuzzball]

and most importantly, 'pressing Nanoha's [sad eyes/lonely/needs help] button.'

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To be fair, it's a rather large button, with a very soft spring.