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Noblesse Oblige [Znt/SI]

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Amen! Honestly I can't understand Wale's hangup with dieing. Ok I can acknowledge that in canon he didnt want to abandon his men and run away. But here he is just giving up.
 
Zealot said:
Oh please, Wales is just in a funk because history has shown that he is a both a bad administrator and a poor general. He is just sulking because it got shoved in his face that he is a poor excuse of a prince and he cannot deal with it.
He gave up and became suicidal. He gets zero sympathy from me. And honestly, I wish people would stop romanticizing him - he is simply not worth it.
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Ima stop you right there.

Now, I want you to imagine yourself, in your home, with your family and your friends and your pets and all the things in life you care about most. I want you to take that image, and I want you to imagine, now, that there are people outside your house who want to burn it to the ground. Who want to rape and murder everyone you care about, people who stuck by you thick and thin, people you value more than life itself, who you struggle to imagine being without. People you trust, and in turn have trust in you.

I want you to imagine that.

Then I want you to imagine someone kidnapping you from your home just as those people break in, knowing full well that they'll kill you and everyone you love, destroy your home and all the worldly possessions you own, and will do so with a sadistic glee you only think you know. Except now you can't even stand with them. Now you can't even fight. You can just watch, or even worse, are taken before you can, knowing all the horrible things your imagination can come up with are happening right that second. And then I want you to imagine having to live with that, every day, all day, until you die.

Because this is what happened to Wales. Everything and everyone he ever loved was in that fortress, people who believed in him to the death. Henrietta took that away from him. Took everything that mattered most to him and threw it away because she "loved" him and couldn't stand to let him die as he so chose.

Keep that in mind while you spout on about how Wales is "just in a funk." There are fates worse than death, and this? This is one of them. He didn't even get the chance to decide to fight. His men died thinking he fled, and he knows it. People who relied on him and had faith in him till the bitter end. People that mattered to him. So here he is, bereft of everything he's ever held dear, watching the final death of his country, and he just... wants to die. He wants to die on his terms. On his feet. Like he was going to. Like he wanted to. For Albion.
 
Jerry Finch said:
Ima stop you right there.

Now, I want you to imagine yourself, in your home, with your family and your friends and your pets and all the things in life you care about most. I want you to take that image, and I want you to imagine, now, that there are people outside your house who want to burn it to the ground. Who want to rape and murder everyone you care about, people who stuck by you thick and thin, people you value more than life itself, who you struggle to imagine being without. People you trust, and in turn have trust in you.

I want you to imagine that.

Then I want you to imagine someone kidnapping you from your home just as those people break in, knowing full well that they'll kill you and everyone you love, destroy your home and all the worldly possessions you own, and will do so with a sadistic glee you only think you know. Except now you can't even stand with them. Now you can't even fight. You can just watch, or even worse, are taken before you can, knowing all the horrible things your imagination can come up with are happening right that second. And then I want you to imagine having to live with that, every day, all day, until you die.

Because this is what happened to Wales. Everything and everyone he ever loved was in that fortress, people who believed in him to the death. Henrietta took that away from him. Took everything that mattered most to him and threw it away because she "loved" him and couldn't stand to let him die as he so chose.

Keep that in mind while you spout on about how Wales is "just in a funk." There are fates worse than death, and this? This is one of them. He didn't even get the chance to decide to fight. His men died thinking he fled, and he knows it. People who relied on him and had faith in him till the bitter end. People that mattered to him. So here he is, bereft of everything he's ever held dear, watching the final death of his country, and he just... wants to die. He wants to die on his terms. On his feet. Like he was going to. Like he wanted to. For Albion.
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TD;LR: Wales knows fully well, that he is likely to die. But doesn't care anymore?
 
Trusty_Chester said:
TD;LR: Wales knows fully well, that he is likely to die. But doesn't care anymore?
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Essentially Jerry's post is about Wales losing everything he had to live for, in the most dishonourable way possible (for wales) which goes against everything that Wale's personal creed was about.

Additionally I would like to add to Jerry's post.

Wales is likely duelling Henry both as a way to reclaim some honour (of trying to free Albion from it's non-rightful conquerer) and because it's some suicidal recognition that Henry is everything wales is but better.

Wales and Henry are similar characters, the nature of who they are (both loving people and valuing honour/noblese_oblige) and their positions of power (both are important but not in particularly powerful positions) and the fact that whole countries unite behind them for loyalty and the like.

And yet, where Wales had stayed his hand because it was not his duty to use manipulation to get the power to protect the people, Henry did do just that. Henry did go ahead and be proactive with uplifting his country where Wales only reacted to the rebellion.

In almost every way that Wales values Henry is the better man.

And in some sadly suicidal thoughts he wants to die to Henry because if he has to die, it would be to the person who would lead Albion to a future wales can't achieve.
 
Jerry Finch said:
Romanticizing
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This is exactly what I am talking about. Wales is a shitty person, who (and this is the only part where I do agree with you) in addition got dealt a shitty hand.
First, I do not agree that this is in any way a fate worse than death. To me, this is reserved for things like literal eternal torment in hell instead of, well, death. Wales is still healthy, has still supporters he can count on. He has personal power, his magic. He has damn well should have a goal, even it is simple revenge.
Second, or maybe simply a continuation of first, Wales gave up. This is essentially the core of everything and bears repeating - he gave up. As stated above, he did not give up when everything was lost, when everything was in ruin, his every supporter dead, his personal power in shambles and the chopping axe of the executioner a moment away from chipping off his head. He gave up when he could have continued fighting, when he could have found allies, made a plan, retreated to fight another day. As we see, Henrietta was capable of doing all that for him, even while he was actively sabotaging her!

To reiterate once more: he gave up BEFORE Henrietta kidnapped him!!

Even now, when, as you say, Henrietta kidnapped him as he was about to suicidally charge an overwhelming enemy force straight on, instead of, say, retreating and finding allies in neighbouring countries, he doesn't even want revenge! Even in the scenario above, which you described, I would not just give up while I had the means to change something, even if it is simply getting revenge.

So, please, stop romaticizing him. He has shown that he really is not worth it.
 
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Zealot said:
This is exactly what I am talking about. Wales is a shitty person, who (and this is the only part where I do agree with you) in addition got dealt a shitty hand.
First, I do not agree that this is in any way a fate worse than death. To me, this is reserved for things like literal eternal torment in hell instead of, well, death. Wales is still healthy, has still supporters he can count on. He has personal power, his magic. He has damn well should have a goal, even it is simple revenge.
Second, or maybe simply a continuation of first, Wales gave up. This is essentially the core of everything and bears repeating - he gave up. As stated above, he did not give up when everything was lost, when everything was in ruin, his every supporter dead, his personal power in shambles and the chopping axe of the executioner a moment away from chipping off his head. He gave up when he could have continued fighting, when he could have found allies, made a plan, retreated to fight another day. As we see, Henrietta was capable of doing all that for him, even while he was actively sabotaging her!

To reiterate once more: he gave up BEFORE Henrietta kidnapped him!!

Even now, when, as you say, Henrietta kidnapped him as he was about to suicidally charge an overwhelming enemy force straight on, instead of, say, retreating and finding allies in neighbouring countries, he doesn't even want revenge! Even in the scenario above, which you described, I would not just give up while I had the means to change something.

So, please, stop romaticizing him. He has shown that he really is not worth it.
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He is not a shitty person anymore than you are.

He just a normal guy in an extraordinary position. He was overwhelmed.

People have flaws. Characters are by design flawed. His are pretty tame.

Henry by comparison is an extraordinary person.... and he's literally playing with legends, myths and the end of the world.
 
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Zealot said:
He has damn well should have a goal, even it is simple revenge.
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This is the actual sticking point with Wales. He doesn't actually have one. His family and his community are dead, the people of albion hates him, and there's a better person (Henry) who is his superior in every meaningful way. The entire point of wales is that his 'love' for his family/community (the nobles community)/honour supercedes anything else from revenge to just plain old living.

Now the thing about wales is that ultimately he is a character in a story. The main reason why anyone would romanticize him is that his entire character in the original series is to be this ideal image of what a noble is.

It's hard to not romanticize someone who is designed to invoke that reaction.
 
EmpirePlayer said:
Welp. That ship has sailed. But seriously, Henry, going up against a Square when as another Square, even a 50/50 Balance is very much too risky! Don't be Alexander and die the day after your greatest triumph!
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Like everyone said Wales is a triangle but has alot of war experiences. On the other hand.
shadenight123 said:
I, on the other hand, looked at the eyes of a man who had wished to die together with his countrymen, and had lost such a chance a long, long time before. He was already dead, he just hadn't found the right time to die yet.

He didn't want to win. He didn't want Albion back.

He just wanted an execution that would restore a bit of honor to his name.
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Evillevi said:
This is the actual sticking point with Wales. He doesn't actually have one. His family and his community are dead, the people of albion hates him, and there's a better person (Henry) who is his superior in every meaningful way. The entire point of wales is that his 'love' for his family/community (the nobles community)/honour supercedes anything else from revenge to just plain old living.

Now the thing about wales is that ultimately he is a character in a story. The main reason why anyone would romanticize him is that his entire character in the original series is to be this ideal image of what a noble is.

It's hard to not romanticize someone who is designed to invoke that reaction.
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I do agree with this, Wales has been set up to be a Tragic Hero like Hamlet and Othello and Mac Beth. So much promise in these character but with a tragic flaw that destroys them.

As such, they arouse sympathy and pity (not admiration).

With Henrietta I really feel sad for her, but the truth is, she fell in love with an image of a prince that never existed. To love a person above all else is something we think of as great, but to do so, to idealize them and love only that "good part" and not acknowledge their flaws is something that results in bitterness in the low run.

Truly, "Love only ceases to be a demon when he ceases to be a God".
 
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Wales will 'lose' the duel because he fights to die with honour and put an end to Albion's strife. When Wales dies it will be without issue leaving no true heir to try and reclaim Albion form Gallia, it will be an end to the war.

The only possible snag is if he's sired a bastard on Henrietta, but if anyone tries to push that sort of claim then that frees Henry up to push his own similarly tenuous claim on Tristain's crown albeit from the position of possibly already being a King anointed by the divine right of conquest.

Hum, that is something, the favour of heaven trumps all other claims of legitimacy. If it has been ordained that Henry conquer Albion then who has any right t contest the will of the Founder and the Gods? He is of the Founder's blood, he is of Royal station, the people hail their conquering overlord and now he is to duel Wales for Albion.

None can deny his divine right to rule once Wales falls, if it was not meant to be so then surely the heavens would grant Wales victory.

Matilda could be a problem, she's of the royal line of Albion isn't she? But she's loyal, make her a Duchess and marry her firstborn to one Henry and Isabelle's children to cut that dynastic issue off.
 
So. Will Henry tell Wales that his sister Tifania is alive and well?
How will he react? A reason to live for still, or an object of hate, as shes the child of the elfin mistress that started the whole debacle in the first place?
 
I was thinking about the last Isabella Omake and the situation here in Albion.

Did she send Undercurrent to kill all the nobles that were working for her father?

They all died to freak accidents.
 
Marla said:
So Henry's Square magic, reserved for the war, is now prepared to be unleashed on Wales. Do they all thought he is still a Triangle? Man the shock will be a pleasure to read, including reading Karin's smugness of her family having multiple Square mages in two generations, a rarity for most nobles but not the de la Vallieres. That is, if the duel reaches that point. There might be more wrenches in the works.
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To be fair, Menvil vs Henry started as a Triangle vs. Square scenario too...

XenonPrime said:
The only possible snag is if he's sired a bastard on Henrietta
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Yeah, about 5 minutes after that one is claimed, Germania declares war on Tristain. Problem solved.

I'm betting Henry manages to talk some kind of sense into Wales after beating him to a pulp. Battle Therapist sounds like a thing he'd definitely have on his resume.

Bastur2 said:
I was thinking about the last Isabella Omake and the situation here in Albion.

Did she send Undercurrent to kill all the nobles that were working for her father?

They all died to freak accidents.
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I assumed Joseph had arranged for that. It was the perfect timing for it.
 
Zealot said:
Oh please, Wales is just in a funk because history has shown that he is a both a bad administrator and a poor general. He is just sulking because it got shoved in his face that he is a poor excuse of a prince and he cannot deal with it.
He gave up and became suicidal. He gets zero sympathy from me. And honestly, I wish people would stop romanticizing him - he is simply not worth it.

If anything, I think it is Henrietta who deserves sympathy. She loves Wales so much that she is willing to tolerate all his faults and does everything she can to prevent him from committing suicide. Even if nothing else, that by itself is admirable.
But Henrietta even went one step further and managed to unify her romantic desires with her position as a ruler of another country and came up with a plan that would see both her country and her beloved prosper - a plan that had an excellent chance of working. She could be hardly expected to know that due to plot powers the king of Gallia is omniscient, omnipresent and really behind everything in the first place.

Even now her plan could still be salvaged if please-kill-me Wales didn't majorly fuck it up. At least she could have gotten a new port city for her country out of the whole thing. And Wales certainly had lots of cards to play if only he was willing to fight for his future, rather than giving up.
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Zealot said:
This is exactly what I am talking about. Wales is a shitty person, who (and this is the only part where I do agree with you) in addition got dealt a shitty hand.
First, I do not agree that this is in any way a fate worse than death. To me, this is reserved for things like literal eternal torment in hell instead of, well, death. Wales is still healthy, has still supporters he can count on. He has personal power, his magic. He has damn well should have a goal, even it is simple revenge.
Second, or maybe simply a continuation of first, Wales gave up. This is essentially the core of everything and bears repeating - he gave up. As stated above, he did not give up when everything was lost, when everything was in ruin, his every supporter dead, his personal power in shambles and the chopping axe of the executioner a moment away from chipping off his head. He gave up when he could have continued fighting, when he could have found allies, made a plan, retreated to fight another day. As we see, Henrietta was capable of doing all that for him, even while he was actively sabotaging her!

To reiterate once more: he gave up BEFORE Henrietta kidnapped him!!

Even now, when, as you say, Henrietta kidnapped him as he was about to suicidally charge an overwhelming enemy force straight on, instead of, say, retreating and finding allies in neighbouring countries, he doesn't even want revenge! Even in the scenario above, which you described, I would not just give up while I had the means to change something, even if it is simply getting revenge.

So, please, stop romaticizing him. He has shown that he really is not worth it.
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This argument that somehow Wales brought this upon himself? Consider first that he was only the crown prince. His father was the man administrating the realm, his father was the moron who caused the strife in the first place, and Joseph was the one who set up all the royalists pins to go tumbling down in such a way that Wales could do nothing because his father was running the show until his death at the last second, in all his deluded suicidal glory.

Wales had basically no power of his own other than as a general, and that ostensibly meant nothing when a stealth void mage was running around setting the stage against you so he could topple the replacement soon after.

Consider that the royal family of Albion had blood ties to Henrietta, which means that from the first second, before things even looked like they could go bad, the king of Albion, and the king of Albion alone could have called Tristan to help while they still had a fleet to get the Tristanians up safely. If you want to say someone fucked up, say the former king fucked up. His kid only did what he could with the hand he was dealt, fixed as it was.
 
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