For me, it would be something like "End the Age of Strife, the long dark age of superstition and exploitation, and bring egalitarianism, freedom, and rationality to a shattered galaxy."

Emp's brilliant plan of trying to starve warp entities that feed off of suffering by creating an authoritarian hellstate by force was just one of the many genius ideas that make me think the guy shouldn't have been trusted with running a food cart, much less a galactic empire.

All of the issues you describe are likely to be implicit in any kind of centralized leadership in the long term, hence my preference for decentralization.
Decentralization is just giving schemers the ability to back stab each other using state funds.

The imperium that's a hell state in 40k is decentralized. The Lords of terra don't really care what happens on the individual planet level and that's up to the individual rulers. The issue of the hell state as you've put it happened in that very same decentralized government.

Emps also was lessening power by giving it to the lords of Terra and the admin. He started it as an authoritarian but was transitioning which was his mistake.

Your also never going to get rid of superstition. The warp exists and is more active come 40k. Emps tried to use the imperial truth and when he could no longer enforce it, people reverted.
 
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Your also never going to get rid of superstition. The warp exists and is more active come 40k. Emps tried to use the imperial truth and when he could no longer enforce it, people reverted.

Sure we can. Just use the actual truth, not the imperial one. "The Warp is a realm of thought, there are massive cysts in the warp formed by the negative emotions and suffering of the galaxy that can twist people's minds."

That's not a superstition, it's just the truth. Psionics is a legitimate field of study in 40k.

Decentralization is just giving schemers the ability to back stab each other using state funds.

And Centralization is just giving schemers the ability to toy with the population of entire worlds against their will if they reach a position of power. You can't stop ill-intent with authoritarianism, it literally never works.
 
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Sure we can. Just use the actual truth, not the imperial one. "The Warp is a realm of thought, there are massive cysts in the warp formed by the negative emotions and suffering of the galaxy that can twist people's minds."

That's not a superstition, it's just the truth. Psionics is a legitimate field of study in 40k.
The original imperial truth wasn't superstition either

The Imperial Truth was pioneered by the Emperor on Terra even before the Great Crusade began. It was an ideology defined by the core values of reason, respect for the methodology of science and secular progress.

It's basically what your describing before it was twisted.

Edit: When people see deamons pop out and faith as an actual tool can repel them they get religious really quickly.


Edit2: Study of the warp might be a legitimate study but there's a reason why it's a heavily restricted one. The dangers of it has been shown even in this quest. The MC got away with it due to unique circumstances but most just go crazy, summon chaos etc.

Positive gods are needed for protection unless your like the Tau and have small souls.
 
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The Imperial Truth was pioneered by the Emperor on Terra even before the Great Crusade began. It was an ideology defined by the core values of reason, respect for the methodology of science and secular progress.

It wasn't, because the entirety of the Imperial Truth was tied up in unquestioning devotion towards a singular uber-emperor. It's only natural that became twisted into fanatical worship over time - which, mind you, is why I see Cantaran Spirituality as one of the worst possible choices we could make for the long term progress of this polity.

I will agree with you that if the players here choose to vote for a centralized government which will militaristiclly annex everyone it encounters and indoctrinate them into worship of Prometheus, that said government has no right to call itself the New Confederation. Honestly at that point we might as well call it the Imperium, since it'll be a virulently expanding empire which conquers everything under the "benevolent" eye of a superhuman golden man. :V
 
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The original imperial truth wasn't superstition either

The Imperial Truth was pioneered by the Emperor on Terra even before the Great Crusade began. It was an ideology defined by the core values of reason, respect for the methodology of science and secular progress.

It's basically what your describing before it was twisted.
I also very strongly objected to the truths about the warp.
Basically there is noting there and as such you should ignore it, it ended poorly when supposedly non-existent daemons started showing up and the rest is history.
 
It wasn't, because the entirety of the Imperial Truth was tied up in unquestioning devotion towards a singular uber-emperor. It's only natural that became twisted into fanatical worship over time - which, mind you, is why I see Cantaran Spirituality as one of the worst possible choices we could make for the long term progress of this polity.

I will agree with you that if the players here choose to vote for a centralized government which will militaristicaly annex everyone it encounters and indoctrinate them into worship of Prometheus, that said government has no right to call itself the New Confederation. Honestly at that point we might as well call it the Imperium, since it'll be a virulently expanding empire which conquers everything under the "benevolent" eye of a superhuman golden man. :V
Actually no he didn't put himself as the leader of the original imperial truth. That was his religious son that betrayed them all. People started believing it more after emps fought deamons on Terra and grew while he was played up in the chair.

The original imperial truth says there's no gods. That science was the way to go.

I also very strongly objected to the truths about the warp.
Basically there is noting there and as such you should ignore it, it ended poorly when supposedly non-existent daemons started showing up and the rest is history.
There's a couple of reasons for that. It was to starve chaos through the power of disbelief. We see it work with the Tau but at the same time the Tau has tiny souls.

Secondly most humans emps came across were superstitious and their beliefs fuel And create warp beings.

Third issue is warp hazards or memetic on top of tempting for some people. Psykers especially might try to reach out for more power and doom a planet, research might be done and drive people insane.

Look at what one eye accidentally did to Terra using the warp.

Edit: Also if you create a devil in a religion then just the belief in it or knowledge of it is enough to give it power or the chaos gods it's concept represents.
 
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Honestly, for me it just comes down to: I don't like the Imperium, I disagree with it's fundamental ideologies, I think that it's masturbatory "hard men making hard decisions while hard" wank to say that any of its atrocities were necessary in the first place, and I think that the IRL track record of authoritarian states in general and fascist states in particular should make it blatantly obvious how vacuous and empty any claims about "fascist efficiency" are. The Imperium is if Nazi Germany was even more clownish and incompetent, which is a high bar to clear.

I'm largely of the opinion that if the Emperor hadn't done the Great Crusade, those scattered pockets of humanity would have done at least as well in pushing aside the various threats in the galaxy if not better, and they wouldn't have created a massive breeding ground for Chaos through industrial levels of churning out human misery in the process. What's the Imperium going to do to help those people, come in and enforce their existing tyrants rule under thread of orbital bombardment? Steal all their resources and people for a thousand years and then show up 30 years late when an actual invasion happens? Just keep the production distributed locally and have smaller local groups cooperate against larger threats, instead of trying to run everything through a bureaucrats worst nightmare of a system back on Terra.

So in my 40k fanworks, I don't want to play as the Imperium, I don't like to see the Imperium's actions get justified, and I certainly don't want to emulate what I see as the Imperium's many, many flaws.

The original imperial truth says there's no gods. That science was the way to go.

Yes, he wasn't a god. He was just the eternal and infallible Emperor. :V
 
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Humanity would be wiped if they stayed in small pockets. There's planets that humans were preyed on by aliens, infested with chaos etc. The Tyranids would roll them over with more numbers or resources. These threats could build up and become worse until it becomes someone else's issue.

Leaving these individual polities alone would also just cause in fighting on a larger scale between human polities.

Leaving humans fractured would have just let all the factions pray on them. The elder using clairvoyance to send waaghs that they don't wish to face to human planets. The orcs who grow quickly and upgrade up the tech tree fast once the ball gets rolling. Chaos which just needs an accident to wipe planets even before the age of strife.

I've been pointing out that a lot of solutions weren't workable by emps because they've essentially already been tried, wouldn't work due to the timeline of slanneshs emergence, or the technology of the era.

Most of the worst problems with the imperium come 40k are caused by his traitor sons and their impact. Humans and their superstitious nature and half finished plans he couldn't implement before the heresy. Like Admech and the lords of Terra.

In order to overturn any of these issues would require superior tech, mastery of the warp, protection from the warp. Which would require a large layer of plot armor or ignoring the challenges of the setting.

Even if the federation somehow survived the age of strife they wouldn't have been able to deal with it. They couldn't even deal with scrape code, psykers destroying planets etc.

Could Emps have made a better if smaller polity? Maybe, but at the cost of being at the mercy of other factions.
 
Gathering up the votes:

Centralization:
Centralized has 26 votes, while Decentralized has 13.

A huge differential, unlikely to be overturned.

Expansion:
Liberation has 22 votes, while Negotiation has 15.

Liberation has an advantage, but not an insurmountable one.

Religion:
Cantaran Spirituality has 14, State Secularism has 13, Realmer Syncretism has 12.

Still anyone's game.
 
[X] [FLAG] "The Fire Rises"
[X] [CENTRALIZATION] Centralized
[X] [EXPANSION] Negotiation
[X] [RELIGION] Realmer Syncretism

Not sure about the name considering the centralization but i really like the flag from Plan: A Hope Burning Across The Stars.
 
Conquest is inherently evil, big E still let xenophobia to go rampant, created this supermacy ideology of "humanity's destiny to conquer the stars" and the Crusade was a "join or die" mentality led by giant manchildren resulting in making many disgruntle compliances, making enemies with everyone and genocide of many civilizatiosn who were sane mind you whose only crime was either not kneeling down or didn't fit that absurd definition of "humanity".



I mean for God sake, Dorn who is one of the most reasonable primarch once purged an entire human population just for having xeno DNA!



The Imperium was always doomed with or without Chaos because like all fascistic governments, they are doomed in making everyone hate them or to get choked by their own corruption because surprise surprise when you encourage supermacy? Everyone would start thinking "Only I'm in the right!" No one would even try to get in anyone's shoe.
 
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think that the IRL track record of authoritarian states in general and fascist states in particular should make it blatantly obvious how vacuous and empty any claims about "fascist efficiency" are. The Imperium is if Nazi Germany was even more clownish and incompetent, which is a high bar to clear.
The imperium doesn't even fit the fascist definition. It's more feudalism then that.

Why smaller?

With his advantages and resources, a more peaceful route to integration could easily have led to a larger and more prosperous state.
What advantages? He had a vault full of goods and his own psyker abilities. He has to negotiate with Admech because it'd take too long to build up. Meaning he had to deal with admechs religious hang ups.

Then you have his son's being scattered and chaos already in the process of subverting some of them. Planting the seeds that would cause the heresy.

Negotiation is also a slow process in which he'd have to give up things or make promises. Meanwhile those who entered will try to better their lot. Which will distract him from moving forward. On top of ideological differences.

Edit: I don't think I recall any country forming irl from peaceful discourse. Usually it's an outside enemy pushing everyone together at best.
 
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That's not a superstition, it's just the truth. Psionics is a legitimate field of study in 40k.

No, it isnt at least no really, the warp is not something you cant just tackle in a nerd manner with carefully laid rules because the warp on the whole laught at such issue, it a living thing that move and act on is own were time is not linear and it can transform the mind of people, as malcador said -To understand chaos is to understand insanity.

Even then there is a diferent of knowing and knowing. the later require tons of willpower and understanding to see the dangerous of chaos and very few can do that.

Like make this clear, you cant clean chaos away, is one of the hard truth of 40k.

I'm largely of the opinion that if the Emperor hadn't done the Great Crusade, those scattered pockets of humanity would have done at least as well in pushing aside the various threats in the galaxy if not better, and they wouldn't have created a massive breeding ground for Chaos through industrial levels of churning out human misery in the process. What's the Imperium going to do to help those people, come in and enforce their existing tyrants rule under thread of orbital bombardment? Steal all their resources and people for a thousand years and then show up 30 years late when an actual invasion happens? Just keep the production distributed locally and have smaller local groups cooperate against larger threats, instead of trying to run everything through a bureaucrats worst nightmare of a system back on Terra.

This is very much false, wolf at the door show exactly this when a dark eldar riding party come to a planet, the planet opose and....well they got bomb and them ride until the wolf save them(the of course the wolf forcefully annex the planet). they will fight each other and eventually some uber polis would come at the top and we dont know if they would do better or worst and there is a moment you need more against a bigger threat. Which they are at least two: Ullanor and Rangandian.

Most of the worst problems with the imperium come 40k are caused by his traitor sons and their impact. Humans and their superstitious nature and half finished plans he couldn't implement before the heresy. Like Admech and the lords of Terra.

This is truth but not the entire truth, the emperor did make mistakes, aside of his handling of the primarch, hiding the truth even from them, his idea that no AI and not Xenos as it all the xenos were orcs or rangandian were bad, even then the biggest issue is that he is too powerfull, appear out of nowhere and destroy everyone he contradict him, which such a power is not surprise people think of him as a good. hell is not surprising there is a cult of our chararter, let just way before we have to deal with our own version of legio divinatus.

Try to be better than the imperium is a worthy goal but a dificult one, we cant just do it by saying "do the same just better"
 
If Imperium is feudalism not fascistic then tell me, why there is no regiment of aliens working for them? Why we never see aliens mingeling with humans? Even with the xeno protectorate BS it is just a pretty two words for having the "good xenos" put in their places as cattles, I mean hell there is one xeno that got sucked dry quite literally after they were designated as xeno protectorate because their bodily liquids turned out can be used as Rejuvenate on humans.
 
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In fairness, Big E intended to raise the Primarchs with Malcador but Erda made a deal with Chaos Gods to scatter them across the galaxy.

Which I prefer the older edition of Word Bearers who time traveled to scatter the Primarchs to be honest.

And it made Erda quite a wishy washy woman. She joined Big E in his campaign of unifying Terra, knew what she had gotten herself into, and then she chickened out and consorted with Chaos.

That should have gotten her obliterated by Big E for that like what he did to Horus in the final stages of the Horus Heresy. And yet she got away with it Scott free.
 
[X] [NAME] The New Confederation
[X] [FLAG] "The Fire Rises"
[X] [CENTRALIZATION] Decentralized
[X] [EXPANSION] Negotiation
[X] [RELIGION] Realmer Syncretism
[X] [EXTRA] The Realmers will be, in addition with integrating cultural practices and beliefs as the New Confederation spreads, also be tasked with vetting those practices for malign Warp influence, with resources provided to them to aid in that task.
 
In fairness, Big E intended to raise the Primarchs with Malcador but Erda made a deal with Chaos Gods to scatter them across the galaxy.

Which I prefer the older edition of Word Bearers who time traveled to scatter the Primarchs to be honest.

And it made Erda quite a wishy washy woman. She joined Big E in his campaign of unifying Terra, knew what she had gotten herself into, and then she chickened out and consorted with Chaos.

That should have gotten her obliterated by Big E for that like what he did to Horus in the final stages of the Horus Heresy. And yet she got away with it Scott free.

Except no, Erda didnt make a deal, she try to take them, the emperor find out and in the clash they scatter, the idea of word bearer time travel for me is to wacky really. And for what I get she was with the emperor, she just didnt expect his ambition to be so overwhelming big, not a surprise really, very few people get the emperor.

Explain your point then. As far as I know each planet has their own rulers that send tilt to the lords of Terra in exchange for military protection. The Lord rarely pass down any blanket laws and leaves things mostly to that individual world.

Those blanked term are "no xenos, no AI, give me what I want from you or ELSE" the imperium very much can consider killing you, there is also the fact you MUST workship the emperor. they can incrise tithle and suck planets dry, the imperium have taken the youth of many planet and would like to demand more. Terra take, it did not give.
 
Those blanked term are "no xenos, no AI, give me what I want from you or ELSE" the imperium very much can consider killing you, there is also the fact you MUST workship the emperor. they can incrise tithle and suck planets dry, the imperium have taken the youth of many planet and would like to demand more. Terra take, it did not give.
The AI ban makes sense when you consider it almost ended the human race. It's like someone building nukes and putting everyone in danger.

The must worship the Emperor came from the religious traitor son and got adopted afterwards.

The xeno law makes sense when you consider most of the aliens encountered have been evil. The ones that seem peaceful have been tricky and sometimes their DNA strains can cause them to dominate humans if spread. Think Tyranids in that case.

The acceptable ones can become sanctioned Xenos so not all die. The tilt issue can happen under any system of government. The difference is how one goes about it. Think star war and how the outer rim is treated even in a republic.

The Imperium hits just about all of Umberto Eco's 14 Points, which is one of the most common scholarly definitions of fascism in political science. Saying that it isn't fascist is laughable.
I can probably make a case against some of them but in your own article it says these may overlap with other kinds of despots or fanatics. Which the imperial cult became and I'm not arguing emos wasn't a despot. As a system of government they lean more to a feudalism bent then the definition of fasicm.

www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of FASCISM

a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe… See the full definition

Also the case thay 40k things like the Occult being factored into the government and always being besieged by an outside group is real and not imagined. Chaos being more active, the Eldar manipulating events, Tyranids etc. Some of the points on that list happens after emps gets put in his chair. There isn't an autocratat that point but a council makes all the decisions.

As for the combination of options in quest. I don't think a conquest Centralized focus will mean ending up like emps. Since unlike emps I do t think we're rushing to catch everyone. Meaning we're going to take more time to uplift and socially engineer our issues away. We'll just have to make sure we either have the plot armor of the Tau or machine soldiers can make up the difference.
 
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As for the combination of options in quest. I don't think a conquest Centralized focus will mean ending up like emps.

It won't, yeah.

Like, I'm arguing about my personal preferences, but even in the Centralized form we'll still be creating an actual parliament with political parties and elections, even if we take the Liberation path we'll still be trying to give the people we liberate actual freedoms instead of doing the Megamind thing*, and even if we go with Cantaran Spirituality Prometheus will still only be one revered spirit among many, and will be actively attempting to improve education to the point that others fully understand that PR-01 is "just" a particularly advanced AI from millenia in the past.

It's more a question of degrees and preferences than a question that makes-or-breaks the story.

That said, if I assume that both leading expansion paths are at least vaguely comparable in terms of how well they'll work out, I'd like to differentiate ourselves from the "rest of the pack" in 40k, so to speak.

*The Megamind thing in question being:

View: https://youtu.be/hLDfrZuh5XI?si=6kEQfDboR0v-ATn7
 
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