You guys probably don't want to keep talking about morality on its own given the thread topic - the HomuHome this is not, and that subject matter isn't going to get anything good out of anyone.
Preaching to the choir, Rook. I gave that argument about 9 posts ago, but it's been ignored because you can make a very, very thin connection here. Although I do agree that this discussion is probably not one to keep up because, last I checked, PMMM didn't really focus on these issues. They were there, but it wasn't the crux of the series, and for us to bicker about it is the very definition of Derail.
I don't mind where people would rather have the discussion. People just moved it here because they thought it fit here better than the Homu-Homu Home.
I'm just responding according to my beliefs, in order to explain why I consider Kyuubey and what they do to be evil and why similar situations would still be evil to me.
I understand why some would disagree, but some seem to not understand why I disagree with them.
Fucking bullshit. There's absolutely no evidence of that, and the fact that the incubators did try to return to the witch system is evidence that it wasn't.
One can run on a 1:1 ratio of energy lost/gained and want it to be more like 2:1 in case some planets get destroyed.
Essentially, from their perspective, why wouldn't they try to get more energy? If something disastrous happens, more energy gained now means more time to find a solution to a future problem.
However, when the chances of said problem are incredibly small, then from our perspective, not causing the huge amounts of suffering those contingencies would is more of a priority.
Okay. It isn't preventing X from happening. Let's see here...
Timeline 1
X begins
Internim timelines
Meaningless stuff
Timeline M
X causes Y
Timeline R
Consequences
Of
Y
The events that lead to Y are already mostly deleted, given that Y retconned most events. Essentially, everything but X beginning and X causing Y isn't really important. The events leading to Y no longer existing doesn't prevent Y from existing. Possibly because Y is acausal now. It exists, it has existed since the dawn of time, it is an essential and irreplaceable law of the universe at this point.
Or because X is Y's cause, and since it continues to exist, so does Y.
I'm getting this right, right?
I think I'm going to go with the second one, if only because Homura's memories aren't erased. However, for X to be Homura's wish that she can redo her meeting with Madoka and protect her instead, I don't believe it trumps Y. X can end, already having caused Y. Evidence of this is time where Y clearly exists without Homura redoing her first meeting with Madoka and protecting her. Madoka's world is very clearly a time of its own, before Homura's Rebellion. If the Law of Cycles relied upon Homura continuing to protect Madoka, rather than her having protected Madoka long enough to make her own wish, the Law of Cycles could not exist in a world where Homura wasn't protecting Madoka.
The important thing to remember is that wishes are always granted, no ifs ands or buts. What happens after doesn't matter, but the fact that it will be granted is inviolate. Madoka's wish was granted and lost that. Homura's never was.
Homura never actually succeeded in protecting Madoka, so her wish was still in "unstoppable force" mode.
Or, and hear me out: Her wish was to redo their meeting and protect Madoka instead. That was filled to the letter... WoG says "Approaching one hundred" times. If you assume that Homura's wish continues, protecting her forever rather than simply for a time, despite no mention of time in the wording of the wish, why do you not apply the same assumption to Madoka?
One can run on a 1:1 ratio of energy lost/gained and want it to be more like 2:1 in case some planets get destroyed.
Essentially, from their perspective, why wouldn't they try to get more energy? If something disastrous happens, more energy gained now means more time to find a solution to a future problem.
However, when the chances of said problem are incredibly small, then from our perspective, not causing the huge amounts of suffering those contingencies would is more of a priority.
We don't know how effective the original system was, only that it was ostensibly working. Cutting the output literally in half does not indicate "oh it still works fine".
Or, and hear me out: Her wish was to redo their meeting and protect Madoka instead. That was filled to the letter... WoG says "Approaching one hundred" times. If you assume that Homura's wish continues, protecting her forever rather than simply for a time, despite no mention of time in the wording of the wish, why do you not apply the same assumption to Madoka?
Homura never actually succeeded in protecting Madoka. She redid the meeting, over and over and over, but every time she failed at the second half. Madoka would die, or would sell her soul and condemn herself to inevitable with-out or death. The canon timeline was the biggest failure ever, because Madoka literally erased herself from existence.
Homura's wish was never fulfilled, and thus maintained it's inevitability power.
You talking about the Witch transformation output being removed? Or the Wraiths giving half the energy?
on the second one, though. Figure I may as well ask where Kyubey says that.
Homura never actually succeeded in protecting Madoka. She redid the meeting, over and over and over, but every time she failed at the second half. Madoka would die, or would sell her soul and condemn herself to inevitable with-out or death. The canon timeline was the biggest failure ever, because Madoka literally erased herself from existence.
Homura's wish was never fulfilled, and thus maintained it's inevitability power.
It's generally accepted that wishes function off of intent more than wording. I don't personally buy into that, but I operate under that assumption for all wish discussions because otherwise it's just a giant headache.
Homura's intent was "give Madoka a happy ending", or maybe "Protect Madoka from Walpurgisnacht".
Either way, she always failed. Because if she had succeeded she would have lost her ability to loop, and Canon/Rebellion would never have happened.
But that "Witch" concept you mentioned in your story is quite interesting. As a means of collecting human emotional energy, it certainly has its appeal!
If such a lucrative means of harvesting energy had been available to us...
...We Incubators might have employed a very different strategy for all of this...
This implies that the Incubators are employing a strategy they didn't in canon verse. Crazy, I know. It's not like they're just using the Witch plan with the Witches ripped out. Since that was never available to them, they did something different, with similar effects on the surface.
That's likely why there're Wraiths in this reality, though that's just me speculating.
Also:
But in that witch world you were describing, there weren't any wraiths like the ones we fight here, right?
So collecting curses must have been a much faster process!
This, plus the fact that Wraiths are mentioned as "The distortions in this world have merely changed form" (Though only by Homura), implies that they do have the same effect Witches do. I assume each individual Wraith is worth less, with all the cubes Homura throws to Kyubey at once, but there's more Wraiths too.
Because if she had succeeded she would have lost her ability to loop
Why do you say that? It's not like Sayaka lost her abilities, or Mami hers. Is it because you hold time loop at a different level than other Magical Girls' abilities?
(Just saying, though, if you're saying she was able to topple Madokami because her wish was still in effect, being surely granted, I have to ask why she didn't ever defeat Walpurgisnacht. Are you saying it's easier to do weird magic bullshit and take Madokami's power than it is to defeat Walpurgisnacht?)
In fact, have a quote.
This implies that the Incubators are employing a strategy they didn't in canon verse. Crazy, I know. It's not like they're just using the Witch plan with the Witches ripped out. Since that was never available to them, they did something different, with similar effects on the surface.
That's likely why there're Wraiths in this reality, though that's just me speculating.
Wraiths are basically an immune reaction of reality after the multiversal retcon, to prevent shit like that happening a second time, according to Wraith Arc.
They eat emotions (and the related memories) and digest them into a safe, non-reality-warping form, I.E. Grief Cubes. Wraiths are actually the farthest from energy producers you can get when the energy you're talking about is reality-warping emotion-juice.
This, plus the fact that Wraiths are mentioned as "The distortions in this world have merely changed form" (Though only by Homura), implies that they do have the same effect Witches do. I assume each individual Wraith is worth less, with all the cubes Homura throws to Kyubey at once, but there's more Wraiths too.
On the surface, Witches and Wraiths both fill the same "emotion eating thingy that magical girls fight" niche. Their origins and the way they work are different, but looking at them the first thing you think is "oh, these are the replacement for witches."
Why do you say that? It's not like Sayaka lost her abilities, or Mami hers. Is it because you hold time loop at a different level than other Magical Girls' abilities?
The Homura's Revenge manga goes into the mechanics of her power more than the show does. Homura has a limited amount of time-stop, a little over a month's worth. She consistently runs out during the Walpurgis fight, and can't use it at all afterward.
(Just saying, though, if you're saying she was able to topple Madokami because her wish was still in effect, being surely granted, I have to ask why she didn't ever defeat Walpurgisnacht. Are you saying it's easier to do weird magic bullshit and take Madokami's power than it is to defeat Walpurgisnacht?)
It's about opportunity. Pre-madokami there were bunches of ways she could try and save Madoka, the wish gave her all the tools she needed, and her failing was on her. Post Madokami it's literally impossible without the wish stepping in and giving her a leg up to Madokami's tier.
Wraiths are basically an immune reaction of reality after the multiversal retcon, to prevent shit like that happening a second time, according to Wraith Arc.
They eat emotions (and the related memories) and digest them into a safe, non-reality-warping form, I.E. Grief Cubes. Wraiths are actually the farthest from energy producers you can get when the energy you're talking about is reality-warping emotion-juice.
On the surface, Witches and Wraiths both fill the same "emotion eating thingy that magical girls fight" niche. Their origins and the way they work are different, but looking at them the first thing you think is "oh, these are the replacement for witches."
The Homura's Revenge manga goes into the mechanics of her power more than the show does. Homura has a limited amount of time-stop, a little over a month's worth. She consistently runs out during the Walpurgis fight, and can't use it at all afterward.
So many spinoffs I never heard of... PMMM's bigger than I thought it was.
It's about opportunity. Pre-madokami there were bunches of ways she could try and save Madoka, the wish gave her all the tools she needed, and her failing was on her. Post Madokami it's literally impossible without the wish stepping in and giving her a leg up to Madokami's tier.
Like... I just don't like the idea in general. Wishes don't have infinite power. If they did, there'd be functionally no difference between going back in time to redo your meeting with a friend in a different way and becoming a god, but the second required power Kyubey found remarkable.
If it worked like that, it'd work, but it just doesn't seem to fit to me. An oval-shaped peg in a round hole.
Worth pointing out, Homura doesn't actually travel through time any more than everyone else does. When she loops she's Slider-ing across parallel dimensions to similar one that's further back chronologically than her current one.
That's the reason there are anomalous timelines like Oriko Magica.
The Incubators always want more energy no matter what. It's not actually evidence of a problem with the system.
Also, I've always stated that after a few loops, Homura saving Madoka becomes impossible under any circumstance. I also say that the only way Rebellion makes sense as part of an incomplete plan by Madokami (which actually fixes the previous point). That's actually one of the reasons I made my quest.
The Incubators always want more energy no matter what. It's not actually evidence of a problem with the system.
Also, I've always stated that after a few loops, Homura saving Madoka becomes impossible under any circumstance. I also say that the only way Rebellion makes sense as part of an incomplete plan by Madokami (which actually fixes the previous point). That's actually one of the reasons I made my quest.
*looks at post*
*looks at clock*
*looks at post again*
Okay, I'm not going to get into this, and we've had these arguments before, but suffice to say I disagree with pretty much everything in this post.
i did, also this is the sort of discussion i want to see
now on to Homura's wish.
she wished word for word was this "I want to redo my meeting with Miss Kaname. But this time, instead of her protecting me I want to become strong enough to protect her!"
now if every time Homura goes back in time she hasn't yet meet with her from the universe point of view, when all of existence was rewritten by madoka, Homura's wish is still in effect, now if saving homura from despair protection? yes.
so Homura must then be in a position to Become strong enough to protect Madoka the Goddess, however what can could be a danger to Madoka? answer incubators. thus the events of rebellion are born.
so Homura must then be in a position to Become strong enough to protect Madoka the Goddess, however what can could be a danger to Madoka? answer incubators. thus the events of rebellion are born.
Actually, Homucifer was trying to protect Madoka from herself, and her whole self-imposed "I no longer exist and am forever alone" thing. The Incubators aren't actually a threat until Homura makes them one, and they're really not the driving element.
Actually, Homucifer was trying to protect Madoka from herself, and her whole self-imposed "I no longer exist and am forever alone" thing. The Incubators aren't actually a threat until Homura makes them one, and they're really not the driving element.
Sorry.
Homura's Wish cant happen unless Homura thinks that Madoka needs protecting.
So for the wish to happen Homura needs to believe that Madoka is in Danger at the time of Madoka's and Homura's meeting.
So the wish then makes such a thing happen. Cue Homura's chat with the incubator at the end of the show.
When the incubators trap Homura into isolation Barrier new universe, this new universe is Homura's Soul Gem.
Homura meets Madoka after we (the viewers of the movie) see a possible danger to Madoka who do to reasons is no longer untouchable.
Homura is Aware of this danger Before meeting Madoka.
This is how the start of Rebellion is all explained to be Homura's wish's fault.
Talking to Kyoko about Sayaka, Kyubey very carefully avoided actually answering her question. He said "Well, magical girls can break the laws of physics and perform miracles, so why not?" which Kyoko interpreted as of course, so long as you clap your hands and believe! rather than I am literally so old that the heat death of the universe is a major concern to me and I've never seen it happen but go ahead and try it, IDIOT.
So, Volume 3 of Tart Magica came oit. Nothing to really write home about (mysteries still unsolved and most of the volume is dedicated ti a single—admittedly well done—fight scene), but a certain something caught my eye.
Now, this doesn't really go anwhere and isn't mentioned even in passing afterwards in the volume (yes, that pisses me off), but I think it's safe to say this just oepend a whole new can of worms for us to analyze, don't you?
So, Volume 3 of Tart Magica came oit. Nothing to really write home about (mysteries still unsolved and most of the volume is dedicated ti a single—admittedly well done—fight scene), but a certain something caught my eye.
Now, this doesn't really go anwhere and isn't mentioned even in passing afterwards in the volume (yes, that pisses me off), but I think it's safe to say this just oepend a whole new can of worms for us to analyze, don't you?
Talking to Kyoko about Sayaka, Kyubey very carefully avoided actually answering her question. He said "Well, magical girls can break the laws of physics and perform miracles, so why not?" which Kyoko interpreted as of course, so long as you clap your hands and believe! rather than I am literally so old that the heat death of the universe is a major concern to me and I've never seen it happen but go ahead and try it, IDIOT.
And given that out of the 6 Magical Girls we've seen in the show+movies, 2 of them iterally rewrote the universe and reversed witchification in some way or another, I'd say his "Magical Girls do impossible shit all of the time" isn't far from the mark.
Obviously Kyouko's love for Sayaka was simply insufficient to overcome her curse.
on the second one, though. Figure I may as well ask where Kyubey says that. 
