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Letting Go (Worm/Exalted)

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Skitzyfrenic said:
Edit: To actually add something. To have Ligier actually put forth all that effort to communicate with Taylor, he's probably hoping this new world can be a way around the Surrender-Oaths. And I would guess that it's probably going to be her Urge if Ligier directs her to do so directly.
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I would be disappointed if it was. Creation was an artificial world created by the Primordials (making it obvious that other worlds/dimensions might exist or be possible to create), and the surrender oaths were ultimately designed by combined exalted host + Incarna. There is no way I could accept that the absurdly superhuman lawyers would have missed a loophole that huge.

That being said, Ligier could presumably be summoned with 3rd circle sorcery since he is a 3rd circle and not an actual full Yozi. However he would run into the same problem I mentioned earlier. Ligier is POWERFULL. I mean really really really powerfull. The moment he is summoned to Earth, Taylors story is basically over.
 
Skitzyfrenic said:
Taylor X Ligier OTP as stated in @Thief of Words 's quest.

Edit: To actually add something. To have Ligier actually put forth all that effort to communicate with Taylor, he's probably hoping this new world can be a way around the Surrender-Oaths. And I would guess that it's probably going to be her Urge if Ligier directs her to do so directly.

Have we actually discussed what Hymn (sorry can't remember off hand) is gonna urge Taylor to do?
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Err...about that? Ligier didn't send her that dream in Infernal Conundrum. It was a Past Life background memory of Otri's.

Edit: Also, she already has an Urge: Fix Brockton Bay.
It's her motivation that I haven't figured out yet.
 
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Datakim said:
I would be disappointed if it was. Creation was an artificial world created by the Primordials (making it obvious that other worlds/dimensions might exist or be possible to create), and the surrender oaths were ultimately designed by combined exalted host + Incarna. There is no way I could accept that the absurdly superhuman lawyers would have missed a loophole that huge.

That being said, Ligier could presumably be summoned with 3rd circle sorcery since he is a 3rd circle and not an actual full Yozi. However he would run into the same problem I mentioned earlier. Ligier is POWERFULL. I mean really really really powerfull. The moment he is summoned to Earth, Taylors story is basically over.
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The way I run it, Earth is but a part of the Beyond of Oramus, which holds the things which cannot or do not exist in the Essenceverse. A world with no Primordial Titans, no essence, just mortals and dull matter organized according to largely inflexible rules? That's something that cannot exist in the Primordials' reality, for they stamped their mark upon all of (their iteration) of existence.
 
Thief of Words said:
The way I run it, Earth is but a part of the Beyond of Oramus, which holds the things which cannot or do not exist in the Essenceverse. A world with no Primordial Titans, no essence, just mortals and dull matter organized according to largely inflexible rules? That's something that cannot exist in the Primordials' reality, for they stamped their mark upon all of (their iteration) of existence.
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I should check your your quest sometime. Though I do wonder how your Taylor could do anything/respire essence if Earth had none. Also, why the heck would the Yozi want to fix Brockton Bay? Kinda odd urge for the Yozi to give her (unless its a rogue shard). Though SWLIHN might have something about bringing hierarcy and order I guess.

Also, I believe the Exalted/Incarna did consider the idea of the Yozi escaping into the Beyond right? I mean thats why Oramus is locked up inside his own broken wings, because thats the only thing that can contain him and prevent him from fleeing. And none of the other Yozi can reach into the Beyond the way Oramus can.
 
Datakim said:
I should check your your quest sometime. Though I do wonder how your Taylor could do anything/respire essence if Earth had none. Also, why the heck would the Yozi want to fix Brockton Bay? Kinda odd urge for the Yozi to give her (unless its a rogue shard). Though SWLIHN might have something about bringing hierarcy and order I guess.

Also, I believe the Exalted/Incarna did consider the idea of the Yozi escaping into the Beyond right? I mean thats why Oramus is locked up inside his own broken wings, because thats the only thing that can contain him and prevent him from fleeing. And none of the other Yozi can reach into the Beyond the way Oramus can.
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For your first question: because the previous possessor of her shard was a baby devil-tiger, so her shard is free-roaming and had bits of primordial nascency still clinging to it.
For the second: because it's a Pyrian urge. SHLiHN is the Primordial embodiment of everything in its place, and clearly that does not apply to the current state of Brockton Bay.
As for the last bit...you'll have to read and see, won't you? :D
 
DeviantD said:
"All the more reason to join the Wards before one of the gangs comes recruiting. Unlike us, they won't take no for an answer."
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You know, I've seen this idea pop up in other Worm fanfics but for the life of me I can't figure out why. Look at pre-Leviathan Brockton Bay: none of the three capes in the Merchants seem to be there against their will. Nor the three capes in the Azn Bad Boys. Nor the five capes in Faultline's Crew. Nor the multitude of capes in Empire 88. They're all there by choice. Technically, not even the Undersiders try to force parahumans to join them. The only person in the city who does that is Coil, and he's doing his best to keep that fact a secret. Whats more, if the gangs force capes to join them, why are rogues like Parian able to remain out of their grasp? Why was Shadow Stalker able to maintain her status as an independent hero for over a year? It's just bizarre that anyone would think that forcible recruitment is an actual danger when no one is openly doing it.
 
Sapphite said:
You know, I've seen this idea pop up in other Worm fanfics but for the life of me I can't figure out why. Look at pre-Leviathan Brockton Bay: none of the three capes in the Merchants seem to be there against their will. Nor the three capes in the Azn Bad Boys. Nor the five capes in Faultline's Crew. Nor the multitude of capes in Empire 88. They're all there by choice. Technically, not even the Undersiders try to force parahumans to join them. The only person in the city who does that is Coil, and he's doing his best to keep that fact a secret. Whats more, if the gangs force capes to join them, why are rogues like Parian able to remain out of their grasp? Why was Shadow Stalker able to maintain her status as an independent hero for over a year? It's just bizarre that anyone would think that forcible recruitment is an actual danger when no one is openly doing it.
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You know what, I reckon by this point I have read at least five times the word count of the original story in fan-fic. Probably more like twenty.
It could just be fanon in my head that the Merchants recruit most of their members by addiction (though not necessarily capes).

I figure it happens now and then around North America (more so in some of the more war-torn areas), even if not in Brockton Bay specifically.
The likelihood of forcible recruiting is of course dependant on things like usefulness of the powers, difficulty in capture and chance of actually controlling the new cape.
Of course actual frequency, and that reported for the purposes of Wards/Protectorate recruitment do not have to be equal.
 
I think that fics and recruitment probably use it because it is a lot more graphic and immediate than a line like, "The statistics say that within a year you will probably stop being a hero. Most independent heroes whose fates we know pick fights that they die in or are overwhelmed by their psychological issues."
 
Datakim said:
A newbie cape is unlikely to go look at the statistics or ask around to see if it does happen.
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Hell, a newbie cape, or anyone else, really, wouldn't even have access to the statistics. How would you even go about compiling a metric for "rate at which independent parahumans are recruited under duress by criminal gangs"? I have a feeling a survey would be an even iffier proposition than usual.
 
DeviantD said:
You know what, I reckon by this point I have read at least five times the word count of the original story in fan-fic. Probably more like twenty.
It could just be fanon in my head that the Merchants recruit most of their members by addiction (though not necessarily capes).
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Yeah, this is more of me discussing a trend I see in Worm fanon, rather than a complaint I have about your story in particular. I'm mostly just confused to see so many people running with it.

I figure it happens now and then around North America (more so in some of the more war-torn areas), even if not in Brockton Bay specifically.
The likelihood of forcible recruiting is of course dependant on things like usefulness of the powers, difficulty in capture and chance of actually controlling the new cape.
Of course actual frequency, and that reported for the purposes of Wards/Protectorate recruitment do not have to be equal.
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To my admittedly limited understanding, US gangs don't really try and force people to join. Gang members are supposed to see their gang as a second family, people you support and sacrifice for. You want to trust that in a firefight your fellow members have your back. If one of you gets picked up by the cops you want them to stay loyal and keep quiet. You don't want people who are desperate to leave and willing to make a deal with the cops.

Scify said:
Hell, a newbie cape, or anyone else, really, wouldn't even have access to the statistics. How would you even go about compiling a metric for "rate at which independent parahumans are recruited under duress by criminal gangs"? I have a feeling a survey would be an even iffier proposition than usual.
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Part of the problem I have with that is it runs so contrary to the world the characters live in. The situation in Brockton Bay isn't all that different from the rest of the country. You have numerous independent heroes, independent hero teams, rogues, independent villains, and parahuman gangs both in the city and throughout the country. You can't have that kind of diversity if forcible gang recruitment was a genuine danger. Hell, the ABB abducting regular citizens and forcing them into the gang was one of the things that lead to the cape community rising up and stamping them out (the other factor of course being the bombing spree).

When Datakim posted this:
Datakim said:
It could always basically just be a lie designed to make you join. A newbie cape is unlikely to go look at the statistics or ask around to see if it does happen.
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My first thought was why would the Protectorate lie to Taylor to trick her into joining, when they never really seem to use that tactic in Worm? Of course, then I realized I was being stupid. There's no reason to treat the Protectorate as beacons of honesty and integrity. But if they were to trick people into recruiting, why go with a lie that doesn't reflect reality even in the slightest?
 
Sapphite said:
My first thought was why would the Protectorate lie to Taylor to trick her into joining, when they never really seem to use that tactic in Worm? Of course, then I realized I was being stupid. There's no reason to treat the Protectorate as beacons of honesty and integrity. But if they were to trick people into recruiting, why go with a lie that doesn't reflect reality even in the slightest?
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Because it probably has a good chance of working with those who are ignorant?

Presumably they would use different words and tactics for someone who had been independent/rogue for quite some time, or with someone who showed signs of great understanding of parahuman culture. But for someone who they know triggered very recently (or somesuch), using this deception could work quite well. And odds are that there are some examples of people having been forced to join. Enough that if the target of the lie questions it then or later, they can mention a couple of names, so its probably not even a total lie, but rather a significant exaggeration of risk.

You know, similar to whats happening in US who are all utterly terrified of foreign/muslim refugees, even though the chance of being killed in a terror attack is absurdly insignificant. Or people who are anti-vaccine. And countless other examples.

Remember, you have read Worm and considered all of this calmly. You are also able to think about it rationally from the comfort of your PC without pressure or worry.

In-world, having a significant authority figure tell you, "yeah, theres a chance that if you don't join the wards, you will be pressganged by horrible criminals", will likely result in fear response and such. Few people can calmly and rationally analyse the political structure of the city and its gangs at that point and realise the chance of risk is minimal. And few people (teens in particular) would ever have considered any of this before.

And once you have joined PRT and become friends with other wards and got the full PR experience and so on, you will likely not care even if you realise you were kinda deceived, since you have made friends and got several nice benefits. Or you will find it too difficult psychologically to quit at that point due to sunk cost fallacy. There are probably legal problems with just leaving too.

So yeah, this is probably one deception that works, but I am sure they have others in the bag for different types of people too.
 
If this press-gang thing is a load of bullhonky, where did it come from? I'm not saying it's true, I'm just wondering where it came from.
 
Schielman said:
If this press-gang thing is a load of bullhonky, where did it come from? I'm not saying it's true, I'm just wondering where it came from.
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The fandom has taken to blaming every bad thing that happened in canon as abject stupidity on the part of Cauldron. A number of people refuse to even recognize the rational used by its members, even though Wildbow has flat out said the world would be several orders of magnitude worse if they had not intervened. With that in mind, the Protectorate is a Cauldron creation to help maximize the number of active parahumans while maintaining a semblance of order in society. As such, the Protectorate will accept capes into its ranks even if they do not have a spotless background. People point to Shadow Stalker (vigilante with a body count of at least one), Assault (former villain named Madcap, specialized in breaking out prisoners as they were being transported to the Birdcage), and Skitter (because Skitter) as examples. This has morphed into the fanon theory that the Protectorate will accept anyone, regardless of past wrongdoings. Alongside this theory is the idea that the PRT/Protectorate only cares about PR, so they will either screw over innocent people if it helps them, or throw their own members under the bus if someone more useful comes along.

Press-ganging is the idea in the fanon that the Protectorate will not only accept anyone, but actively forces parahumans to join their ranks if the opportunity presents itself. If you do not play ball then you will be made an example of, so in the future others will know not to cause trouble.

Mind you, all this is contradicted by the fact that, in canon, the PRT/Protectorate encouraged the existence of Rogues. That particular tidbit is where the "PRT affiliated" status originated.
 
Interregnum said:
Press-ganging is the idea in the fanon that the Protectorate will not only accept anyone, but actively forces parahumans to join their ranks if the opportunity presents itself. If you do not play ball then you will be made an example of, so in the future others will know not to cause trouble.
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Unless I've really misunderstood the conversation going on, they aren't talking about the Protectorate press-ganging anyone, they're talking about the Gangs doing so, which we also don't see much in story support for. Unless you count Dinah and Tattletale both of which are done secretly by Coil and thus wouldn't contribute to a known statistic. It's possible that something similar happens to other capes and we just never see it, but I don't really think it does since I can't recall any canon evidence other then the two above examples. Only having two examples to me doesn't really seem to support the whole "Most independent capes die or get forced to join a gang within a year" thing.
 
Dresden said:
Unless I've really misunderstood the conversation going on, they aren't talking about the Protectorate press-ganging anyone, they're talking about the Gangs doing so, which we also don't see much in story support for. Unless you count Dinah and Tattletale both of which are done secretly by Coil and thus wouldn't contribute to a known statistic. It's possible that something similar happens to other capes and we just never see it, but I don't really think it does since I can't recall any canon evidence other then the two above examples. Only having two examples to me doesn't really seem to support the whole "Most independent capes die or get forced to join a gang within a year" thing.
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This, exactly. We weren't talking about the Protectorate; we were talking about the gangs.
 
Schielman said:
This, exactly. We weren't talking about the Protectorate; we were talking about the gangs.
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I'm pretty sure in canon it's mentioned that Tinkers specifically were so in demand various groups would pressure them to join. Fanon then turned "pressure to join" into "forced" and "Tinkers" (which actually makes some sense given the way their powers work) to "parahumans"
 
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