Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Playing: Final Fantasy IX]

Like I feel like if you turned that exact event into a theoretical FF7 Remake style fully animated and voice-acted cutscene Squall storming out mid-expositon would land fine, because it rings true for his character to me.

I mean this is basically what they do with Jack Killchaos isn't it? It certainly works for him, though the overall tone of that game is rather more different than FFVIII is, so it might just be a case of this instance more feeling like we're having story taken away from us over a powerful character moment for Squall.

I do wonder if having him occasionally zone out and ignore exposition he thinks is irrelevant over the course of the game would make this land better, kr if that would be annoying in every scene it comes up in.

This is the movie Seifer watched as a kid which gave him this idea of the sorceress' knight as a romantic ideal to aspire to, isn't it. Fuck. This makes too much sense.

Oh my god it is. Seifer has built his entire life around a shitty B-movie who's hiring criteria was "whoever was in earshot whenever they needed a new role," this is incredible. Seifer is officially my favorite character in all media.

I almost wish the game had skipped past that Edea section just so we could have a scene of Squall sitting down and processing what, exactly, his longtime rival was using as inspiration. I don't think he'd ever recover.
 
…that's not all we've learned, of course. The game is actually doing something pretty skillful here: while it finally confirms the obvious (yes, Edea was not evil, she was possessed), it also reveals that a fairly natural conclusion had actually been a red herring (neither Ellone nor Edea inherited Adel's power; there are multiple sorceresses and Adel is still alive somewhere), and throws in a totally out-there twist on top of it (Ultimecia is FROM THE FUTURE). I don't know why I didn't expect this. Time travel has been a part of the plot since Ellone showed up. I guess because I don't like time travel I just compartmentalized it as 'memory stuff' and didn't expect an enemy from the future reaching into the present.




View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur57IunS9To


WE'RE DOING IT
 
Also, assuming imprisonment isn't practical, I appreciate that none of the party care to voice the possibility of just killing Edea to prevent the Sorceress Ultemecia from possessing her again, and nor does Cid. It's noteworthy to me, however, that Edea doesn't raise the possibility, either. She laments that she could turn back into the Sorceress at any moment, but doesn't at any point suggest that this would be a fate worse than death, ask them to kill her rather than allow her to be taken again, or even pre-emptively argue against it and for her own life, which would also be a reasonable position to take. Given how apocalyptic a threat Sorceress Edea was, the refusal to even address the risks of her own continued life comes across as... kind of selfish? Everyone else in that scene has an excuse (they are children and a loser), what's hers? It feels like the game really needed a character to say "hey why not just kill her", only to be shut down with "no that wouldn't help because X", or "no I won't let you because emotions" because otherwise I'm still thinking "hey why not just kill her", and the game is refusing to answer.
While it isn't stated outright, I think they aren't going with "Just shoot her" is that Edea herself isn't the true threat, but rather Ultimecia, the possessor. Killing Edea might not actually prevent Ultimecia from, say possessing someone else, in which case, they've hurt their own operation, as at the moment, they know (or rather, assume) that when Ultimecia returns, she'll possess Edea, they'll know where she is, as compared to killing Edea and being left with the possibility that when Ultimecia returns, she'll be possessing some random woman somewhere on the planet.
 
It's probably come up before, but transliterating English into Japanese is really tricky because Japanese just flat-out doesn't have a lot of English phonemes, so you get... the analogy that comes to mind is a hash collision, actually. You have two English sounds that map to the same Japanese one, most famously "r" and "l", which makes things kind of awkward. If you're an ESL translator it's probably even easier to transliterate a word incorrectly, because English orthography is a mess even on a good day.

The example that comes to mind is FFVI, where Ted Woolsey managed to translate "Ultima" correctly (or at least as correctly as we now understand it to be), while also seeing the exact same kana in another place and deciding it said "Atma".

For another example, Japanese does not natively have the "ti"/"tee" sound. The workaround is using the "te" syllable, but adding an extra "i" in smaller case to approximate "ti". Hence Ultimecia being spelled アルティミシア, where the ティ in the middle is distinct from the テ in Ultima's アルテマ, despite sharing the same katakana symbol.

Hence why I'm also sympathetic to the idea that Ultimecia was supposed to be Artemisia. The former would have been written as アルテミシア if the text wanted to be consistent with Ultima. That it's not implies it's supposed to be a different name.

The problem is all of these names are made up, so they could use any combination of the Japanese kana syllables to represent any type of English spelling, and I can't say they're wrong. As mentioned, there's a certain way the writers would have written it if they wanted consistency, but that requires the writers to care about being consistent with previous made up words.

Consider that Final Fantasy is the game series where the basic healing spell has been consistently mistranslated ever since the very first game. It's not "Cure", it's "Care".

At a guess, this is a translation error? Edea seems to have gone to great lengths before her possession to make sure she herself never knew where Ellone was, so this is more "Ultimecia was inevitable, so the best I could do was make it happen in favorable circumstances" I guess?

It might be due to the phrase 私自身, which the translator read as "mind". As in Edea surrendered her heart (or soul, or whatever is the suitable word is for 心; same idea, so not a big difference) to Ultimecia, which meant as a consequence Edea would lose her 私自身.

Now, 私自身 is more literally translated as "my self". Which can be "myself", or "my sense of self" or "the concept that is the self that I have". The translator decided to translate it as "mind", which isn't wrong as such, but might have caused the confusion.

Taking Edea's line into context, my interpretation is Edea "knows Ellone very well" (stated in a previous sentence), and so the best way she can think of to protect Ellone is to surrender her heart/soul to Ultimecia, resulting in losing her self. Which means Edea's body as a vessel for Ultimecia also loses all knowledge Edea has of Ellone, since it's stored with that "self". Ultimecia can't access Edea's knowledge of Ellone, because Ultimecia is just possessing Edea's body, without access to her personality and mind.
 
X being : "I want to be stomped every day by this sexy dominant girlboss momma and I am totally fine to endanger the world for it because I want to enjoy my own kink the longest time possible."

And of course, it's not something that the devs could have openly said in the game for "kids", but the ones who know, know.
@Omicron pointing a gunblade at post-Sorceress Edea:
 
It might be due to the phrase 私自身, which the translator read as "mind". As in Edea surrendered her heart (or soul, or whatever is the suitable word is for 心; same idea, so not a big difference) to Ultimecia, which meant as a consequence Edea would lose her 私自身.

Now, 私自身 is more literally translated as "my self". Which can be "myself", or "my sense of self" or "the concept that is the self that I have". The translator decided to translate it as "mind", which isn't wrong as such, but might have caused the confusion.

Taking Edea's line into context, my interpretation is Edea "knows Ellone very well" (stated in a previous sentence), and so the best way she can think of to protect Ellone is to surrender her heart/soul to Ultimecia, resulting in losing her self. Which means Edea's body as a vessel for Ultimecia also loses all knowledge Edea has of Ellone, since it's stored with that "self". Ultimecia can't access Edea's knowledge of Ellone, because Ultimecia is just possessing Edea's body, without access to her personality and mind.
That also fits with the rest of the possession timeline we have.
Ultimecia rather consistently keeps searching for information on stuff Edea obviously would already know the whole time, as if despite possessing Edea she has none of the knowledge of her current host.
That was the biggest bit of foreshadowing going on for this development: All the stuff that was being sought out by Ultimecia's extreme methods was things that Edea would probably have known just from how involved she was with them.
 
Taking Edea's line into context, my interpretation is Edea "knows Ellone very well" (stated in a previous sentence), and so the best way she can think of to protect Ellone is to surrender her heart/soul to Ultimecia, resulting in losing her self. Which means Edea's body as a vessel for Ultimecia also loses all knowledge Edea has of Ellone, since it's stored with that "self". Ultimecia can't access Edea's knowledge of Ellone, because Ultimecia is just possessing Edea's body, without access to her personality and mind.
Which is, indeed, consistent with the fact that Ultimecia failed to recognize any of Edea's old wards and was obsessing over some secret purpose of SeeD that she couldn't figure out, as well as her not knowing about the White SeeD and their ship. "Possessing Edea" might have seemed like the best move available to Ultimecia, except it turns out that without access to her memories, much of that use is negated.

@Omicron pointing a gunblade at post-Sorceress Edea:
Hey.

Listen.

Listen.

...


Shut up.
 
With regards to the whole "Time Compression thing". My personal theory was something along the lines of "Ellone establishes that information can be sent backwards and forwards through time, but that information had always been sent back in time. It's not like Squall would cease to exist if Ellone didn't send him back in time, unless his observation being sent back is a Fixed Point in History and can't be avoided under any circumstances", which does kind of fit Ellone's statement that she can't actually send awareness back to the areas she actually wants to. She's an observer, and only in so far as her observation is necessary to close some kind of weird temporal loop.

The idea I get is that this is the "Normal" way that 'Time Travel' is supposed to work. It's already taken into account in the timeline, and therefore the only time travel that happens is stuff that is required to create the present.

Ultimecia is no exception. For one reason or another, she has Ellone's ability to send her awareness back in time, but she's not satisfied with this, because she wants to change history in some way that we don't know and it's not something that's part of the overall timeline. So she hatched this Time Compression scheme to effectively loop around her and Ellone's observation ability to effectively make the future and her desired past happen at the same time through some crazy sorceress bullshit. Allowing her to bypass the "The only time travel you can do is pure information, and even that only within certain boundaries to make the timeline make sense in the present." limitation by bringing her position in the future into the present, while pulling her desired past time into that same present, and effectively making it happen at the same time in space. Which allows her to bypass the Information Only restriction and presumably change the past to whatever it is she wants.

I hate time travel, it always makes things so messy.
 
Omicron, speaking through gritted teeth, tears running down his cheeks: I'm glad Edea is no longer possessed and has reunited with Cid. She deserves freedom and happiness and to not have her mind twisted into something she's not. *words spat out* I'm happy for them.
I mean hilariously enough she's still wearing the Dark Mommy Sorceress getup, so presumably post-mindjack Edea took a look at her threads and went "well Ultimecia might be evil but she's got taste." Which makes the flashback to Mundane Orphan Matron Edea in her apron even funnier.
 
Omicron, speaking through gritted teeth, tears running down his cheeks: I'm glad Edea is no longer possessed and has reunited with Cid. She deserves freedom and happiness and to not have her mind twisted into something she's not. *words spat out* I'm happy for them.
I'm caught in a catch-22 because I think you can make a genuine argument that so far, Edea being released from Ultimecia's possession has turned her into a more generic and less interesting character, a blandly loving maternal figure who is sorry for the bad stuff someone else did with her body but doesn't really have much more to do beyond sit around mournfully waiting for Ultimecia to try to possess her again, as opposed to the bitterness, resentment and arrogance rooted in the history of the persecution of witches that her body's previous inhabitant was alluding to, but now I can't actually make that argument without everyone doing the wink emoji at me
 
I'm caught in a catch-22 because I think you can make a genuine argument that so far, Edea being released from Ultimecia's possession has turned her into a more generic and less interesting character, a blandly loving maternal figure who is sorry for the bad stuff someone else did with her body but doesn't really have much more to do beyond sit around mournfully waiting for Ultimecia to try to possess her again, as opposed to the bitterness, resentment and arrogance rooted in the history of the persecution of witches that her body's previous inhabitant was alluding to, but now I can't actually make that argument without everyone doing the wink emoji at me
See, you're looking at this from the wrong angle; that's unsurprising, because most people do, but if you change your perspective on the matter, you can make an entirely different argument. That argument being that this makes Artemisia, our actual villain, a ton more interesting than before the reveal. Because, all of those things that were said in the speech in Deling City? That was Artemisia telling us what motivates her.

The bitterness, resentment and arrogance rooted in a story of persecution are still the thing that the game's main villain is motivated by, only now we know that this villain, this incarnation of resentment and bitterness, is an insidious force that can take over even those you love most and turn them into monsters. It's a bitterness born from persecution that might well be yet to come - here we have Artemisia, sorceress from the future, fighting the founding generation of SeeD, the army created with the specific purpose of defeating sorceresses. She might have the ground to claim that the atrocities she committed were deserved by the people who she killed being the ones who would go on to be her persecutors in the future, for all we know.

Yes, I agree with your assessment, this reveal makes Edea eminently boring - but it makes Artemisia even more intriguing as a villain that she was when we didn't knew the truth of her identity, in my opinion; when she was just "the Sorceress" and not yet named to us (falsely, it turned out) as Edea Kramer. You referenced how this echoes the Golbez-Zeromus paradigm in FFIV, but I feel that, whereas in that game the reveal ended up cheapening the plot, here, the reveal was both foreshadowed enough, and it's coming early enough in the story, that it enriches it instead.

That's the argument I would make, at least.
 
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Yeah, it comes down to the question of who's Ultimecia herself. If the speech in Deling and other interactions were fully hers (as opposed to "this is your brain on Evil" kinda deal with Edea providing the "base" of cognitive function influenced but not fully controlled by Ultimecia), then we didn't lose the character of the Witch, with all her bitterness, resentment and arrogance, there is just another character of a loving matron we briefly confused for her.

If she's a more elemental evil, then that's another thing.

Though there is an argument to be made that with Ultimecia we lose on personal connections to the world and characters within it since she comes from a future, so unless she's Squall's daughter or something, she's removed from present concerns. It's fair to ask whether Ultimecia is interesting enough by herself and whether Edea as a genuine villain would've been more interesting instead.

Of course, we haven't met Ultimecia on her own, so currently we can't judge.

(I also wonder if we're going to go into the future to see the rise of the sorceress there.)
 
My new crack theory is that Ultimecia is Future Ellone, and she wants to capture and possess present Ellone so she can increase the range of her temporal presence, influencing her past self from the future to reach still further back into the past. Presumably allowing her to reach some critical moment in time where she can achieve T I M E C O M P R E S S I O N
 
If the speech in Deling and other interactions were fully hers (as opposed to "this is your brain on Evil" kinda deal with Edea providing the "base" of cognitive function influenced but not fully controlled by Ultimecia)
Considering that none of Edea's knowledge was available to Artemisia, I think saying that the evidence points to Artemisia being fully in control and Edea having no bearing at all on her actions or words while possessed would be the more likely interpretation of the events.
 
Considering that none of Edea's knowledge was available to Artemisia, I think saying that the evidence points to Artemisia being fully in control and Edea having no bearing at all on her actions or words while possessed would be the more likely interpretation of the events.
Which would actually fit with sorceresses being seen positively enough 17 years ago for one to be the protagonist/love interest of a B-movie like the one Laguna was in. It means they're seen mostly positively now, but will become hated and feared over time.
 
I'm caught in a catch-22 because I think you can make a genuine argument that so far, Edea being released from Ultimecia's possession has turned her into a more generic and less interesting character, a blandly loving maternal figure who is sorry for the bad stuff someone else did with her body but doesn't really have much more to do beyond sit around mournfully waiting for Ultimecia to try to possess her again, as opposed to the bitterness, resentment and arrogance rooted in the history of the persecution of witches that her body's previous inhabitant was alluding to, but now I can't actually make that argument without everyone doing the wink emoji at me
 
I'm caught in a catch-22 because I think you can make a genuine argument that so far, Edea being released from Ultimecia's possession has turned her into a more generic and less interesting character, a blandly loving maternal figure who is sorry for the bad stuff someone else did with her body but doesn't really have much more to do beyond sit around mournfully waiting for Ultimecia to try to possess her again, as opposed to the bitterness, resentment and arrogance rooted in the history of the persecution of witches that her body's previous inhabitant was alluding to, but now I can't actually make that argument without everyone doing the wink emoji at me
don't be a coward, you know they'll make wink emoji's at you anyway
 
fwiw Time Compression is, in the original Japanese, 時間圧縮/Jikan Asshuku. 時 is time, 間 is I think just emphasizing that the previous kanji is being used to mean time here instead of an alternate possible reading (it may also be suggesting the idea of an interval of time but it seems less likely), 圧 is pressure, and 縮 is shrinkage. It translates pretty directly to Time Compression, I don't think there's any clues localization mangled or anything.
 
*wakes up in a haze, feverish, wild-eyed*

there is a Final Fantasy set for Magic: the Gathering coming out next year and I have Opinions on what color should be each character

but as was pointed out before, there is no active "Final Fantasy Franchise" thread which has led to people using my Spoilers thread to discuss FF in general even outside the scope of this Let's Play, but I can't go there

therefore my only recourse would be to post my 5am thoughts on which character should be which color combination here in this very LP
 
Both understandable and eagerly awaited. Might want to either post a quick primer on how Magic works, get someone else to do it, or link a good YouTube resource. Just so everyone is on the same page.
 
I mean, it'd effectively be an analysis of FF characters through the lens of MtG colors, I'm interested in your thoughts on it.
 
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