Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Playing: FFVIII]

I mean, we're talking about a 40+ hour game; missable content stuck in the middle like this is just... really weird? It's not as bad as the Icicle Inn stuff, but it's still very... well, the best way I can describe it is 'anti-player'? It doesn't want the player to recieve useful information, and it punishes you for following the story, the thing you're supposed to be doing. It's also not at all reasonable to expect people to replay a 40+ hour game and hope they do something slightly different 20-ish hours in; it's not reasonable to expect people to replay a 40+ hour game at all.

Like, as Omicron said, in a modern game (excepting Elden Ring and its compatriots, which deliberately ape older games to their detriment in this respect) this would not be an issue, because you'd get indicators telling you that there was a side-quest to do, and in a good modern game you'd even get a warning telling you that you were going to lose access to the questline before you started the next story mission. But FFVIII is very much a non-modern game with strong, unfair 'fuck you' tendencies that are both deliberate (missable content like this) and not (bad level scaling).
 
I'll note that it's mostly weird from modern design perspectives and people will still hotly debate as to if it was a good change to the medium overall. A debate that is only stronger in its intensity with how everything else around gaming has changed (from accessibility of watching people play to depth of strategy guides to how people even find / access them to…).

There can very much be a space for unmarked quests or missable lore or obscure pieces of dialogue in games. But how such is done, where that place is, what it should turn up, et al has shifted a ton over years. Sort of like how "Read the manual" had been replaced by optional - then mandatory, now verging back on optional - tutorial segments. Part of what makes retrospectives such as this fun, along with various generations watching in the comments and offering their own thought processes / observations.
 
This is all those comments I made in the past about me having no musical ear coming home to roost. I have listened to all the scores; by the time I reached "Bass Guitar," I had already forgotten what the "Guitar" part sounded like. Re-listening to "Guitar," I found myself having no recollection of what "Piano" sounded like at all. If this was a modern video game UI, in which every piece played instantly the moment you launched it and you could transition seamlessly, I might be able to do it; but this is a PSX game, and there are delays between each action. You have to select in the menu, wait for the screen to fade to black, Zell appears on stage, the guitar appears, Zell plays. Each part is very slow, and you control Irvine during them; you have to get up and talk to Zell (or whoever) to get a dialogue prompt for him to stop, then get the menu back. I basically have forgotten what the Guitar part sound like by the time I'm in the menu again. It's completely hopeless. It's not just a struggle against my lack of musical ear, it's a struggle against my ADHD that is asking me to do anything, anything at all but go through a 12th slow-ass 'play this music then stop' sequence.

This feels extra frustrating because there's a much more straightforward solution to this - let multiple people play at once! Like, hand two people sheets, get them playing, and if the instruments clash horrible you can at least say that, say, sax and bass guitar aren't using the same arrangement.

I don't known if it's just like this to make it "harder," or to make it a surprise when you finally hear the full version of whichever song, or if the devs just literally never thought about people who might have trouble remembering and comparing music like this. It does seem legitimately frustrating.

How do you feel about this? Is this bad game design, or is it rewarding thoroughness, curiosity and multiple playthroughs? Would games today benefit for more of this approach, or is the question itself made moot by the rise of wikis? I'm curious about your thoughts on this but also, of course, the update itself as usual.

I think, more than anything, this is a game design that benefits from being 15 and having no other real responsibilities, and if you only get one new game a year than being able to dive deep into one particular game and explore and find new things every playthrough would be a joy.

Now though, while I can appreciate the idea, it's hard to justify playing a game more than once when my backlog is as big as it is, so having missable content feels more like gotchas than anything else.

Though even then, I do like the concept, and I think there's something to be said where two people can play the same game, and talking to each other about it they can realize that they've both seen different pieces of content that the ither hasn't. I think if I had the time for them I'd enjoy this game design more, it's just hard to get the intended effect.
 
There are, therefore, three possible outcomes: 1) We get the correct composition; 2) We get the other composition that got mixed into it but still get its 4 scores, so we perform the 'wrong' piece but still perform a correct piece; 3) We get any other combo of 4 scores resulting in an abominable jumble of parts not meant to go together.
Does that gives an item or something, or just a different cutscene?
 
This feels extra frustrating because there's a much more straightforward solution to this - let multiple people play at once! Like, hand two people sheets, get them playing, and if the instruments clash horrible you can at least say that, say, sax and bass guitar aren't using the same arrangement.

I don't known if it's just like this to make it "harder," or to make it a surprise when you finally hear the full version of whichever song, or if the devs just literally never thought about people who might have trouble remembering and comparing music like this. It does seem legitimately frustrating.
There is a fourth option: system limitations. This game is, what, 25 years old? There are people in this site younger then this game.
 
Couch pal: "I think you should just get on with the plot, maybe."
Player: "Never! Must chat with everyone!"
CP: "Dude this is just harrasment now."
NPC: "daddy please make the scary hero go away"
P: "EVERYONE"
 
I'm old enough that missable content is one of the marks of a interesting game. Thinking back, planescape torment, quest for glory, last express, even Baldurs gate (1), fallout all had plenty of missable content. And it was great for replaying.

A game with plenty of hidden optional content tends to be memorable. A game where every interaction is delineated by clear signposts, metaphorically or literally tends to be less so imo, unless you have such gargantuan game you might as well have forgotten it when you replay.

I suppose it's less of a problem now with gaming being indie full, something new for everyone.
 
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Yeah this isn't particularly well implemented since there's nothing at all to point you to it, but you do genuinely need to be able to miss things for any sense of discovery or exploration to exist in a game. And I do feel a lot of modern games have overcorrected against that.
 
Yeah this isn't particularly well implemented since there's nothing at all to point you to it, but you do genuinely need to be able to miss things for any sense of discovery or exploration to exist in a game. And I do feel a lot of modern games have overcorrected against that.
Agreed miss able content is required in order to have a sense of discovery. This wasn't a great way to do it, but it's better for it to exist than no exist. If you find it great, if you miss it no biggie.
 
Hey @Omicron , thanks for doing this, I'm really enjoying this LP.

I've been meaning to play all the FF games as well, starting from the first, but reading about your experience has convinced me that I would have absolutely hated it.

My first experience with Final Fantasy was with the german version of FF7 on the PS1. I saw my cousin playing it when I was a kid and decided that I NEEDED TO HAVE IT, so I talked him into selling his (pirated) copy to me.

Man, that game was lifechanging in so many ways, even if most of it was way over my head and Sephiroth's second stage at the end kept curb-stomping me until I just gave up.

What really baffled me was reading your LP of the game and repeatedly going "What? No. That's not what happens!...is it?"

Two examples: I distinctly remember a scene in the Honeybee Inn where cloud goes to bed, the screen goes dark and a textbox appears, saying " Uff... Stöhn... Rubbel rubbel... Glitsch!" ( 'Ugh... Moan... rub rub... Squelsh!' Would be the closest equivalent in english, I guess), followed by 'HP and MP restored'.

Which completely blew my mind. My character just had sex! With a prostitute! I've been regularly thinking about that scene for the last 25 years, that's how much it affected me back then. And yet that apparently didn't happen in your translation/version.

Wild.

(Though, thinking about it now, the onomatopoeia might also indicate that Cloud was rubbing one out...)

The second occasion is in Cosmo Canyon when something falls off of Seto. You were annoyed with Red for not picking up the Mako tears, which I found baffling because I remember him dropping a weapon for Red, which you never mention.

So. Either my memory is shittier than I was aware of, or the different versions massively diverge.

...

Anyway, I for one despise permanently missable content. I hate it with the fury of a thousand suns. I have never had the time, the interest, or the patience to keep playing the same game over and over in the hopes of discovering something new.

I am fine with temporarily missable content, as long as the game makes you aware of it at some point and gives you a way of getting it, like a treasure/hint finder that you unlock after beating the game, or the ability to replay the sections in question.

So yes, I would say it's bad design, because there are ways to reward obsessive completionists without unduly punishing the more casual players.
 
So yes, I would say it's bad design, because there are ways to reward obsessive completionists without unduly punishing the more casual players.
In my experience the casual players feel no strong urge to find every possible secret given the whole casual bit. If you feel this strongly about completionism and keep trying to do it you may yourself be a completionist.
 
Honestly I think some RPG teams just have fun throwing together all that alternate text for small sequences like this. Granted it's easier in a game like FFVIII with no voice acting to just slap in a variable or switch or whatever on a bunch of NPCs for "Is the party leader Irvine" and then give them a few lines of alt dialogue.
It's definitely going to be interesting watching what the advent of voice acting will do to the game's writing, because when your dialogue is voiced it suddenly puts a lot of restrictions on how much writing you can do. I know that it comes with FFX, but... Sight unseen I would guess that it will operate in a fashion similar to XIV, where only major plot beats are voiced, and the overwhelming majority of incidental dialogue is text-only, which lets them sorta have a "best of both worlds" approach.

So, uh, if Squall now has Cid's job, and NORG is busy metamorphosing... who's paying the salary Squall keeps getting? Shouldn't he be the one making salary decisions (and taking in the contract money, and paying his subordinates) now?

Did NORG set up an auto-pay system and forget to turn it off when the civil war kicked in?

This is a solved problem! Most leaders of modern nations are paid a salary. The President of the French Republic earns 16k€ a month, for instance. The power to raise one's salary is restricted, and the salary is handled by part of the administrative system of the state. Balamb Garden most likely has administrative staff as part of the Faculty whose job it is to put money into Squall's bank account and whom Squall doesn't have authority over.

I think you missed a sidequest. If you went to talk to the Master Fishmerman right after you arrived (he's the guy under the umbrella), he'll give you the Occult Fan III magazine. After liberating the town and the Fisherkid finally learns to fish, you can talk to the Master again, and earn a Megalixir. Unfortunately, to get the sidequest, you must talk to the Master Fisherman first thing before doing anything else in Fishermans Horizon, otherwise the sidequest won't happen.


From what I've read, it's not that they swam across the ocean, it's that they hitchhiked in good ol' Iron Clad. Basically, they managed to get inside or under Iron Clad before the base blew up, and the mech's incredibly sturdy build sheltered them. However, they couldn't actually control the mech, so they just rode along (maybe drove it) until you destroyed it finally. That's why they pop up in the water after you knock it into the water.


You should have gone back there after talking to Irvine; a scene will play out and you'll get a Mega Phoenix.

Also, you should look around the area where you fought the boss. The cafeteria lady's son is hanging out there, and maybe you can convince him to come home.
As you can now see, basically everything in that post was missable content that I ended up making an entire update about. Including the explanation about using the Iron Clad to survive! Wild stuff to separate from the main plot!

I choose to believe that the other option besides 'play along' is 'resist the inevitable'.

This is actually a really interesting, non-obvious train of thought for Squall to have at this point. You'd expect him to be worrying about the object level- how he was never trained for this job, he doesn't know how to succeed- but that's not on his mind at all. He's thinking first of taking care of himself (this job is stressful, maybe I should quit), then everyone he's now responsible for, then specifically Cid's emotions. He's got a surprisingly nurturing personality, under all that edge.

Man, FF8 actually has really good character writing, huh.
Comparing this and FF7 it's interesting from a character point of view as well. Both Cloud and Squall have avoidant personalities, but Squall seems way more conscious of his tendencies.
It's interesting, because the sharp reduction in cast members (from 9 party members to 6) initially had me kinda worried that we were seeing a writing crunch with the game not having enough writing time for a broader cast? But instead it's more like the writing got concentrated. At this stage, the only character I'd describe as "shallow" is Zell, and that's mainly because we haven't had a plot beat focused on him. Squall, Rinoa, Quistis, Selphie and Irvine have all had character depths explored.

It's also very... mundane character writing, which is interesting in its own right. Like, I'm sure we'll be getting the supernatural reveals soon and getting into how GFs fry your brains and so on, but so far Squall's damage is completely normal and relatable. He has the psychological issues of a real teenager. This is unlike Cloud, who is a very interesting and deep character, but whose psychological issues have a lot to do with the alien parasites boring holes into his brain and his personality doing the fusion dance with his memories of his only friend.

I can easily see why certain players would find the former less interesting than the latter, though. In some ways Cloud's baggage is more... Exciting?

Having a smaller cast is kind of a letdown in some ways, but in other ways it's like, this game doesn't have a Vincent. And that is a point in its favor.

The steal mechanic always seemed to me like a really bad idea that somehow never sees much improvement across multiple games. Mechanically, you give up some combat rounds for the chance of extra loot. It's almost never worth it on field enemies (except certain special snowflakes), so you're encouraged not to equip it unless you expect a boss, but then you fight surprise bosses. So now you have two different reasons you might want to reload from a save: equipping Steal, and savescumming the drop chance. If you want more challenging fights to give better loot, there are better ways to go about it.

From a lore perspective, what is even happening with Steal? What is your character doing during the fight that they couldn't do after the fight? Do all enemies just have some kind of soul-bind to an object such that you can only take it while they're alive?
Notably, Fabula Ultima, a TTRPG that very consciously emulates early Final Fantasy games in its gameplay, has its equivalent to the Steal move be called "Soul Steal" and it literally manifests an item out of your enemy's soul, because it's the only way this mechanic makes even halfway sense when dealing with "stealing" from a dragon or a wild tiger.

It's interesting because the next game in the series, FFIX, has a thief as its main protagonist. Given that so far the main character of VII and VIII have been impossible to remove from the party, that means Steal has got to be more useful in IX that it's been so far... Right? We'll find out.

I have very, very faint literally-over-2-decades-old memories that say the "correct" piece is a romantic slow song and the "incorrect" piece is an Irish jig, but looking at that list of instruments something tells me my memory is playing tricks on me

Thank you, incidentally; hearing one of the two pieces described as an "Irish jig" jostled my brain into knowing what to pay attention to in the music, and I was able to actually succeed at the music selecting game by picking the scores that sounded like they'd be right for an Irish jig.

Ironically, the next scene is a romantic soulful moment between Rinoa and Squall... and it fails if you picked the slow romantic song instead of the baffling out of place dancing song.

I have to ask, what the hell is Tap? My first thought is that maybe it's another name for drums (which is surprisingly not on the list) but I don't know.

Others have said it, but yeah, it's tap dancing. Every character gets an animation for it. It's great.

This keeps happening, and while it's ambiguous as to whether Squall is just really face blind, I wonder if the game is trying to telegraph memory problems given Selphie's diary entry worrying about it.
It's certainly a possibility! I'm inclined against it just because Squall doesn't appear to have any... operating memory issues? Like he doesn't seem to forget anything within the timeframe of the game. He may have amnesia about stuff that happened before the opening movie, but so far aside from maybe those face blindness moment he never seems to have forgotten something we saw happen on-screen.

Like, as Omicron said, in a modern game (excepting Elden Ring and its compatriots, which deliberately ape older games to their detriment in this respect)
those be fightin' words

I think, more than anything, this is a game design that benefits from being 15 and having no other real responsibilities, and if you only get one new game a year than being able to dive deep into one particular game and explore and find new things every playthrough would be a joy.

Now though, while I can appreciate the idea, it's hard to justify playing a game more than once when my backlog is as big as it is, so having missable content feels more like gotchas than anything else.

Though even then, I do like the concept, and I think there's something to be said where two people can play the same game, and talking to each other about it they can realize that they've both seen different pieces of content that the ither hasn't. I think if I had the time for them I'd enjoy this game design more, it's just hard to get the intended effect.
One of the most profound forms of nostalgia I have experienced playing this old game is thinking back to when I was a teenager with no extracurricular activities and no real awareness that my time on this earth was limited, who could spend several hours a day playing the same game, month after month after month, and never getting bored. I can almost remember what that's like when I'm faced with moments like this, but it's so distant it's grown alien to me. I can't play games like this anymore (don't look at my play time on Hades).
 
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It's certainly a possibility! I'm inclined against it just because Squall doesn't appear to have any... operating memory issues? Like he doesn't seem to forget anything within the timeframe of the game. He may have amnesia about stuff that happened before the opening movie, but so far aside from maybe those face blindness moment he never seems to have forgotten something we saw happen on-screen.
It depends one whether or not Squall actually heard that other SEED's name during graduation, I suppose. We, the audience didn't, but I got the impression that maybe Squall did and forgot.
 
It's definitely going to be interesting watching what the advent of voice acting will do to the game's writing, because when your dialogue is voiced it suddenly puts a lot of restrictions on how much writing you can do. I know that it comes with FFX, but... Sight unseen I would guess that it will operate in a fashion similar to XIV, where only major plot beats are voiced, and the overwhelming majority of incidental dialogue is text-only, which lets them sorta have a "best of both worlds" approach.
To be honest, I genuinely can't recall if FFX went the "full voiceacting" or "major voiceacting but incidental dialogue isn't voiced" route. Ah well, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
The system you describe only works because the leaders cannot override the budget authority by being the strongest supersoldier around. Then again, Squall hardly seems like he would worry much about money.
Even if Squall did care about money, I'm pretty sure he already has the riches from previous salary intake to purchase himself a small country with how fast gil accommodates in FFVIII.
 
There are much cooler things that could have been done with this kind of mechanic. Like, maybe most enemies have a recovery item and you can prevent them from using it. Maybe lots of enemies have a cool throwable, so you can choose between just throwing items you have, or stealing and then throwing. Now that I think about it, 'draw' is just another reimagining of 'steal', yet they kept 'steal' in the game.

Yeah, Stranger Of Paradise, despite also having lots of potential items (ie gear) that could be used as Steal fodder, instead made Steal basically FFVIII's Draw/Blue Magic: instead of stealing items, you steal abilities. Or rather, copies of abilities, since the enemy can still use that ability post-Steal. (Enemy Abilities in that game, when used by the player, are limited-use moves that can be obtained from either Steal, or using the basic Soul Siphon guard. Steal just has the advantage that you don't need to actively guard against the enemy using that ability specifically.)

It feels like Steal in the Final Fantasy games has several different issues, including reliance on RNG, extremes of "must steal now or lose it forever" and "literally just a Potion", and opportunity cost of using Steal rather than any other move that might end the battle quicker.

Yeah this isn't particularly well implemented since there's nothing at all to point you to it, but you do genuinely need to be able to miss things for any sense of discovery or exploration to exist in a game. And I do feel a lot of modern games have overcorrected against that.

I kind of disagree, though. I feel like discovery and exploration can exist in a game without being "missable" in the video game sense of the term, simply by being present but not directly in the path of the main story. So the player can potentially return and pick it up later, but those who don't want to do so can just skip ahead.

Otherwise, the end result would be the player Googling "Game Name Missables" and bookmarking the results. That's not exploration, that's a checklist.

Having "nothing at all to point you to it" is the primary objection behind adding these missable items, in the vast majority of cases. So I suppose the core of the argument is there might not be anything inherently bad about missables that are lost forever if you don't pick them up (whether items or lore), but if so many cases are poorly implemented, it might be better to reduce the number of instances of missables when designing a game, since it's likely the next instance is going to be poorly implemented as well.

Thank you, incidentally; hearing one of the two pieces described as an "Irish jig" jostled my brain into knowing what to pay attention to in the music, and I was able to actually succeed at the music selecting game by picking the scores that sounded like they'd be right for an Irish jig.

I wasn't sure if I should give advice on this, but the first time I played FFVIII, the way I differentiated between the scores was mostly going by tempo. One set of instruments is slow, one set of instruments is fast.

Admittedly I also like music and have a rudimentary music education (as part of the regular school curriculum), so I knew what words like "tempo" means, which might have been an advantage.
 
Admittedly I also like music and have a rudimentary music education (as part of the regular school curriculum), so I knew what words like "tempo" means, which might have been an advantage.
Obviously I know what tempo is.

It is when you play Triple Triad (or other similar games) and place down a bunch of powerful early-to-mid game cards to take control of the board and limit your opponents ability to play stuff without immediately having it taken away.
 
I kind of disagree, though. I feel like discovery and exploration can exist in a game without being "missable" in the video game sense of the term, simply by being present but not directly in the path of the main story. So the player can potentially return and pick it up later, but those who don't want to do so can just skip ahead.

Otherwise, the end result would be the player Googling "Game Name Missables" and bookmarking the results. That's not exploration, that's a checklist.

Having "nothing at all to point you to it" is the primary objection behind adding these missable items, in the vast majority of cases. So I suppose the core of the argument is there might not be anything inherently bad about missables that are lost forever if you don't pick them up (whether items or lore), but if so many cases are poorly implemented, it might be better to reduce the number of instances of missables when designing a game, since it's likely the next instance is going to be poorly implemented as well.
Nah, players who don't get any particular buzz from the exploration/discovery access will just hit Google, but the ones like me who do will be much happier finding something that feels more hidden than an easter egg at a hunt designed for toddlers.

It's fine if this axis of gameplay isn't one you care about, but there are people who do, and we've been pretty poorly served in modern games.

Edit: Apologies if that comes off a bit snippy. As I said the devs need to place some kind of hint toward the hidden content and this example doesn't do that. I'm not saying full on old school guide dang it design is good, I'm saying the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.
 
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Nah, players who don't get any particular buzz from the exploration/discovery access will just hit Google, but the ones like me who do will be much happier finding something that feels more hidden than an easter egg at a hunt designed for toddlers.

It's fine if this axis of gameplay isn't one you care about, but there are people who do, and we've been pretty poorly served in modern games.

Edit: Apologies if that comes off a bit snippy. As I said the devs need to place some kind of hint toward the hidden content and this example doesn't do that. I'm not saying full on old school guide dang it design is good, I'm saying the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.

I mean, I love dicovery, but permanently missable content makes my teeth itch. If it's stuff you can miss because you didn't explore properly and you can come back and find it, there wouldn't be anywhere near as many complaints about it, but we're discussing a moment that is accessible only in an incredibly brief, completely counterintuitive window, and contains some pretty important lore for the game! That's not 'discovery', that's 'obsessively interact with every accessible thing every single time you move the story forwards by even a sentence'.
 
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