Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Playing: Final Fantasy Tactics]

I mean, most of the thread was on board with rewriting reality to ensure Omicron had as many GF as possible, so the sentiment that GFs are worth it seems shared?

It's worth it in the mechanical-game-sense/for completionism. The characters are already, diagetically, suffering from GF-induced early-onset dementia, too, so it's not like more GFs = suddenly they lose their memories.

And in-story, from a cold realpolitik stance, it's worth it to a military commander to have subordinates with GFs junctioned, because, as mentioned, it turns an infantryman into a walking nuke.

It's not worth it morally, especially as it's implied/stated that these kids have been junctioning from a very young age, and their memories are basically swiss cheese. Though it does seem that the personality and so on created from those memories might stick around? Squall's whole fear of connection because of losing people thing is derived from Ellone's departure, for example.

Of course, this is all assuming that there's no last-minute swerve of 'GFs don't actually destroy memory, you're just all normal people who don't remember ages 4 and 5 like damn near everyone' or 'GFs don't destroy memories, it was all THE SORCERESS', though Selphie's whole 'i junctioned a GF at 12, and now i don't remember who it was i junctioned' thing makes those unlikely.

(I don't find the whole 'but they can now recall those memories' bit to be particularly indicative that GFs don't destroy memory; there's no indication that the team recall all of when they were in the orphanage, just bits and pieces, the few fragments they have left.)
 
Cid's degree of genuine sinister-ness vs bumbling good intentions is, like, all over the place, and short of the game revealing that he was full-on evil the entire time and the hints of goodness were a lie, I'm not sure how it reconciles into a coherent character.

Maybe he's junctioned to a GF himself and forgot he's an evil mastermind who summoned the moon god into his wife and other such things, stuck in a cultivated persona of a bumbling headmaster. NORG despairs at the loss of his evil buddy who understood him like no other. (They went to college together)
 
Thing to keep in mind about the big twist is that FF8 was basically trying to out-spectacle FF7, given all the expectations Square faced for following up such a hit game. So I assume they were desperate to put in something that could outdo FF7's twists and reveals, thus hitting the issue with escalation
 
It's worth it in the mechanical-game-sense/for completionism. The characters are already, diagetically, suffering from GF-induced early-onset dementia, too, so it's not like more GFs = suddenly they lose their memories.

And in-story, from a cold realpolitik stance, it's worth it to a military commander to have subordinates with GFs junctioned, because, as mentioned, it turns an infantryman into a walking nuke.

It's not worth it morally, especially as it's implied/stated that these kids have been junctioning from a very young age, and their memories are basically swiss cheese. Though it does seem that the personality and so on created from those memories might stick around? Squall's whole fear of connection because of losing people thing is derived from Ellone's departure, for example.

Of course, this is all assuming that there's no last-minute swerve of 'GFs don't actually destroy memory, you're just all normal people who don't remember ages 4 and 5 like damn near everyone' or 'GFs don't destroy memories, it was all THE SORCERESS', though Selphie's whole 'i junctioned a GF at 12, and now i don't remember who it was i junctioned' thing makes those unlikely.

(I don't find the whole 'but they can now recall those memories' bit to be particularly indicative that GFs don't destroy memory; there's no indication that the team recall all of when they were in the orphanage, just bits and pieces, the few fragments they have left.)
The question of whether memory is identity is a pretty contentious one and any given piece of science-fiction-fantasy may fall on either side of the divide, but my rough impression is that Japanese works are somewhat more likely to fall on the side of "identity exists beyond memory" than Western works. In FF8's case, so far it seems to fall squarely on the side of identity being something that transcends memory - Squall and the others may have arrived in Balamb Garden with no memory of their past relationships, but they immediately started gravitating towards one another and reconstructing the same web of relationship they had at the orphanage, in addition to retaining their core personality traits (Selphie is energetic and loves violence, Quistis is bossy but also a mediator who makes people get along, Squall is a loner who's lost someone important to him and is afraid to connect to others, Seifer is an arrogant dickhead). They're the same people, finding each other in spite of having forgotten one another, and forming the same relationships... It's just that they don't remember that's who they are.

How this ties into the theme of reincarnation that I'm certain is going to get picked up again at some point, I have no idea. Maybe I was wrong and I misidentified memory-related themes as reincarnation-related themes, we'll see.

Goddamn this is bonkers. And I like bonkers twists, but I feel like literally all of the main characters except Rinoa being connected like this is way too much. One or two or three maybe. Like if the Matron who was Cid's wife and the Sorceress ran the orphanage Squall and Irvine came from, but Squall doesn't remember due to GF usage and the other characters had their own separate forgotten pasts, that would be something I could get over. It'd even be kind of interesting to find out what everyone else had forgotten after a reveal like that. But this is beyond excessive.

I don't know if I could play this game after a twist like that, it's so bizarre. Literally no one who wasn't from that orphanage ended up on our SEED teams? Even though they scattered and the members came from two different Gardens? Was the orphanage magic? Was Cid deliberately favoring kids from the orphanage with training and assignments? What the hell? No, seriously, was Edea feeding them all special "make you good at bonding Guardian Force" drops and that's why they all ended up being picked? Explain, game, explain!

It's actually a really interesting question, that.

Squall and Seifer both went straight from the orphanage to Balamb Garden, where they resumed doing the frenemy thing. A few years later, Quistis's relationship with her foster family fell through and she ended up moving to Balamb Garden, where, being a slightly older student with her personality, she ended up being drawn to the local Drama Duo and slotting back into her old mediator role. That makes sense; that could happen entirely organically, just by the paths these three took in their childhood.

It's afterwards that things get weirder. Zell is adopted into a family that loves him and with whom he gets along, but he still ends up joining Balamb Garden... Where he doesn't immediately form a unit with the orphanage trio; he wasn't Squall's close friend at the start of the game and had no special relationship with Quistis aside from a normal teacher/student one, one of many. No, he got added to the unit specifically when he, Squall, and Seifer were all assigned to Squad B for the Dollet attack.

Then Selphie, who had transfered to BGU literally the previous day, just happened to get an order to communicate a message to Squad B, at which point she got roped into their troubles. Then, later, the one Galbadia Garden student Martine just happened to decide to contribute to the assassination team was Irvine, the last (known at this time) member of the orphanage clique.

Quistis, Seifer and Squall finding each other in Balamb Garden is organic. I believe it. Every other addition? They feel like someone put their thumb on the scale. Like, did Cid specifically arrange for Selphie to be sent to contact Squad B? Did he have a special request to Martine to put Irvine in contact with the group? What's the deal with Seifer, anyway? This is way beyond what mere chance can explain, which leaves the two options being 'contrived coincidence by the author' and 'someone with agency within the narrative manipulating events.'
 
holy shit. and the worst part is i can see how this could be made to work? you could do a comfort through validation kinda deal out of this, like, "ah yeah you are in fact way behind us, but it's not your fault, I mean considering you haven't known us since before we all know our times tables, I think you're doing amazingly well!"
Honestly, I think I'd have liked it more - or at least found it funnier - if that was how it played out. Irvine bottling nothing up, in terms of revelations, just being oblivious and insecure and misreading all the conversations and relationship dynamics around him.

And then blithely reassuring Rinoa that it's okay if she feels a little out-of-sync, she didn't grow up with the rest of them after all. Cue a dead, confused silence, followed by everyone turning their heads to stare at him.

That said, everyone but Rinoa being part of this incestuous revelation feels pointless and really artificial. Maybe there'll be a good reason for it later, but right now it just makes everything feel small and pat. What an astounding series of coincidences that brought all of these specific people together, entirely unawares, including two who were separated by entire continents and one who had to actively decide to join a specific school for a specific job!

Selphie's probably the worst, because she has to be explained away during the big reveal, which makes it feel even more contrived. Irvine being the only one who remembers a previously-unknown shared past because he had no GF is a decent twist that makes enough sense to overlook the lack of previous clues, but Selphie *also* should remember by that logic, so it's not something anyone would consider as a possibility. So she just has to pipe up "oh yeah no I had a GF for five minutes as a kid and never mentioned it before, sorry about that". It's cheap.
 
Selphie's probably the worst, because she has to be explained away during the big reveal, which makes it feel even more contrived. Irvine being the only one who remembers a previously-unknown shared past because he had no GF is a decent twist that makes enough sense to overlook the lack of previous clues, but Selphie *also* should remember by that logic, so it's not something anyone would consider as a possibility. So she just has to pipe up "oh yeah no I had a GF for five minutes as a kid and never mentioned it before, sorry about that". It's cheap.

Selphie just didn't want to admit that she doesn't remember anyone because she didn't care about people when there are trains to know and blow up. GF is just an excuse.
 
I think a big problem with the reveal is the weak foreshadowing and signposting.

GF causing memory loss is a missable bit of info on a terminal. Irvine's behavior is recontextualized in a few spots, but even those feel like a stretch.

The fact that that Cloud had mental issues was made clear from day one, and was woven throughout the plot.

With FF8 all the hints are debatable, and then only in hindsight. Did they forget the other SeeD graduate's name as a joke, or because of brain damage. Was Squall showing Rhinoa around Balamb Garden so wooden because his emotional memory is shredded or because he's an awkward duck.
We've actually gotten a look into Irvine's head, that would have been a perfect time to lay down some clues.
 
Man, now I remember when White Knight Chronicles tried to do the same reveal but without any dramatic irony, talent, or thought spent on how to make it fit with the rest of the story. Or how none of the heroes remembered being mecha pilots as toddlers 10000 years ago.
 
Did they forget the other SeeD graduate's name as a joke, or because of brain damage.

At this point I wouldn't have been surprised if the flashback at the orphanage had included one boy who just stood there in the background entirely silent, with nobody ever commenting on him, and then later Nida went "Oh yeah I was there too".

Or Irvine going "There were also two guys who kept making trouble and hassling us, what were their names... Wiggs? Badge? Something like that."
 
there are two reasons i am absolutely loving omi's playthroughs here. and they're sort of the same, but not

first there's how omi reacts and thinks and tries to make sense of the plot beats of each game as they go, and thinking back to how i played them back in the day as well as what i recall of endgame conditions. it's fun to see those reactions, and to see all the wild mass guessing omi falls into trying to understand what's happening. also great to see what sort of worldbuilding behind-the-scenes that omi is picking at as the game progress. best example? the very first game - and the realization that the final dungeon was most likely supposed to be a space station.

then there's the omi's actual endgame analyses of each game. breaking down what happened, when, the development of the story...

and spicing it all up is when (like happened here) omi had started down what i know to be a red herring trail, doesn't even realize it, but when set against *the information provided by the game itself* ... said red herring trail is actually a plausible path, right up to the moment the red herring is realized and there's the ah-hah! moment of realization of what (well, some of what) is actaully going on.
 
Maybe, rather than waiting a really long time for the reveal, Irvine has actually explained this to the party several times and this is just the first time it didn't immediately leak out their ears.
What if he kept trying and he could just never get it out

Irvine: "So uh. About this assassination plan. You know Edea is-"
Squall: "(Ugh, im going to have to actually leader, here. How do i take the pressure off, this is important. Why does Cid keep putting me in this position)"

Irvine, /looking up at impending nuclear doom: "so hey guys, I've been meaning to say"
Selphie: "NO TIME FOR INTROSPECTION, INTO THE MECH EVERYBODY"

Irvine, /a day into a multi-day cross-country mech trip: "So when I was at the orphanage-"
Zell: "I gotta pee so bad, does anybody else need to piss like a racehorse-"
Selphie: "Well i didnt until you SAID SOMETHING-"
Irvine: "SIS WOULD SAY-"
Zell: "I CANT HOLD IT-"
Selphie: "NO ZELL NOT IN THE MECH"
More seriously, I'm giving a lot more side-eye to Seifer's whole romantic obsession with being the servant of a Sorceress, knowing now that he was raised by a woman that was going to become one.
I'm mostly imagining Seifer as 5 years old, running around fighting imaginary dragons to save Queen Mom

And it's cute

But also

That cleavage
 
…and whoever is currently running around in Edea's skull. There were hints before, but the fact that Edea Kramer 1) underwent a total personality shift from 'kindly caretaker figure' to 'evil mind-controlling murderess' and 2) does not have information that she by all rights should have access to, all but confirms it.
They say possession is 9/10 of the law, but it also seems to be at least 1/3 of Final Fantasy plot twists. Garland merges with Chaos, Golbez is controlled by Zemus, King Tycoon is controlled by Exdeath, the Cloud-Sephiroth-Jenova connection is complicated, and now we have Edea Kramer.
 
Checked through the JP playthrough of FFVIII on Youtube that I mentioned a while back. I admit I'd been reluctant to do so, simply because it's just someone playing through the game as a regular player, and thus not really organized in a way that facilitates searches. All the videos are simply numbered, for instance, with no description of what it contains, and the thumbnails are what seems like random timestamps in the video. Entirely understandable for a Let's Play video series more than a decade ago, but a bit inconvenient for my purposes.

Because Quistis asks everyone if they remember 'Matron.' She uses the word Matron as a proper noun, without a particle, which is really weird because the dialogue makes it clear that she means the matron, as in the person in charge of the orphanage.

"Matron" is probably the only thing that came to the translator's mind for the term used in Japanese: "Mama-sensei".

Which is the sort of thing the matron of a small orphanage might be called by the children. "Sensei" is the usual "respected authority figure" title, and "Mama" here is unusually in hiragana (まま), rather than katakana (ママ). Using hiragana rather than katakana is used to indicate very young children, who are still learning their alphabets. The children using it when they're about four or five (and their grown-up selves using it) is likely because they've gotten used to it, although obviously it would sound identical when spoken.

Irvine: "...Hear me out. SeeD and Garden were all Matron's idea, right? I'm not a SeeD, but I share the same feeling as all of you. SeeDs are supposed to fight the sorceress, right?"

It took embarrassingly long for me to realize something: Irvine is not a SeeD.

Irvine never graduated from Garden, simply because he was used by Martine as the Galbadia Garden representative attached to the Balamb Garden team. And then events progressed such that he's not likely to get a proper General Certificate Of Garden Education, because now the Sorceress has taken over Galbadia Garden, probably also interrupting the educational career of the rest of its students.

So Irvine is in the same not-quite-SeeD status as Seifer, or the former Garden students protecting Winhill. It's interesting to compare this to Seifer's clear inferiority complex over not becoming SeeD, or Rinoa feeling left out due to not being SeeD either.

Which makes Irvine's reveal of the orphanage story even more insensitive. "You and I might not be SeeDs, but I have backstory with everyone else, unlike you."

Unfortunately, I think it'd be impossible to tell. I went back to check all of Child!Selphie's lines, and they are limited to "Irvy, wanna play?" and "WAR!" Most of the dialogue in this scene, even in scenes featuring the children, is spoken by the present-day cast talking about the kids. So we see Selphie pick on Zell for being a snitch, but we only hear the other characters talk about it.

So unless you could tell a Kansai dialect from these two sentences alone, I think it's a lost cause, at least until/unless we get more flashbacks to her childhood. Which is a shame, because now I'm curious as well!

Yeah, Selphie goes back to Standard Japanese when she talks to the other party members, so she's not speaking Kansai dialect now either. As for child Selphie, she doesn't have any dialect indicators in her speech, which as you say is too limited to tell anything.

The question of whether memory is identity is a pretty contentious one and any given piece of science-fiction-fantasy may fall on either side of the divide, but my rough impression is that Japanese works are somewhat more likely to fall on the side of "identity exists beyond memory" than Western works. In FF8's case, so far it seems to fall squarely on the side of identity being something that transcends memory - Squall and the others may have arrived in Balamb Garden with no memory of their past relationships, but they immediately started gravitating towards one another and reconstructing the same web of relationship they had at the orphanage, in addition to retaining their core personality traits (Selphie is energetic and loves violence, Quistis is bossy but also a mediator who makes people get along, Squall is a loner who's lost someone important to him and is afraid to connect to others, Seifer is an arrogant dickhead). They're the same people, finding each other in spite of having forgotten one another, and forming the same relationships... It's just that they don't remember that's who they are.

How this ties into the theme of reincarnation that I'm certain is going to get picked up again at some point, I have no idea. Maybe I was wrong and I misidentified memory-related themes as reincarnation-related themes, we'll see.

I'm reminded of the discussion back in FFVII about the difference between "kioku" and "omoide" memories, when Tifa was doing therapy to Cloud in his mind. Memories you know, and memories you really know deep down. Given the comments about how FFVIII was trying to one-up FFVII for Big Story Twists, I wonder if this is a continuation of the same theme.

Something this sequence reveals is apparently junctioning GFs doesn't erase memories. They just kind of put a lid on those memories, and it does not seem to take much to bring them back; just Irvine bringing it up, describing the events and location in summary, and suddenly everyone remembers everything.

Taking that into consideration, how serious is GF memory loss, objectively? The memories are clearly there to be recalled, but not available at the moment, until consciously thought of, perhaps with an effort. This implies keeping a diary to reference would have solved these alleged memory issues, but that might have been too much to ask for a child freshly enrolled into Garden who now has to list out their entire life history so far, just in case some small detail from when they were five years old turns out to be significant.
 
Holy shit this update is just. Everything about this is incredibly fucking bonkers. I have so many questions, and I desperately need to know what the pitch meeting for this particular plot twist was.

With that said, we've gone back to Sinister Cid, because it seems clear that, like… Cid would have known most of this stuff. He had to. That was his wife, and this would have been happening at a time when it seems like they were together? At the very least he was aware of the dangers of GF use being more than just ill-intentioned rumors and still carried on with it while hiding it from his students.

And Evil!Cid returns in full force! Seriously, the messaging around him has been so inconsistent I'm honestly wondering if his actions and how he's framed are deliberately incongruous. Maybe he also has some kind of space ghost in his head that's massively shifted his personality at some point?

It might seem odd that Selphie's memory issues are as severe as everyone else's despite being a transfer student, but she revealed that when she was 12, she joined an outdoors training mission and found a GF inside one of the monsters she killed, and junctioned it for a while - a GF whose name she now cannot remember anymore.

Yeah, it's bad. Junctioning just eats up entire chunks of your life.

Okay but that is massively existentially horrifying. Like the idea of GFs eating your memory is bad enough, but at least with that there's the idea that like. You could still stop using them and quit the whole mercenary business and live your life with whatever is left of your memory. But if you can forget a GF entirely? Like, does Selphie have it fused to herself still, but just can't remember what it is or what it's for and she's still suffering from its effects? At that point they start feeling almost cosmic horror.

Yeah, I think in their effort to make the twist as high-impact as they could, they overdid it. There's no real reason for Quistis, Zell and Selphie to have belonged to the orphanage Edea was running; the story, and even the twist, would work just fine if only Squall, Irvine and Seifer were there. And it'd give narrative space to provide more unique backstory for Selphie and especially Quistis.

Fully agreed. And like, if it was just Squall and Seifer that Irvine grew up with, it would be so much moee believable for him to write off Squall's incongruous behavior. Like, "oh of course, mr. Cool Brooding Loner is pretending like he doesn't recognize me, he's probably trying to impress the others here." And then when he's acting completely unaffected by the assassination mission, he'd be able to rationalize it as, I don't know, maybe he did start to live up to that whole mercenary ideal? He's really keeping together worryingly well.

And then you could make it such an effective reveal. He could try to legitimately connect with Rinoa, responding to her doubts with "well you might not feel like you belong, but you've certainly made yourself a part of the group here - I mean, me and Squall have known each other all our lives, but he's only opened up so much thanks to you!"

Followed by Squall staring at him with absolutely no recognition. And you could then have the rest of the party be a part of the reveal by having someone go "hang on, do any of us actually remember our childhoods? Or whatever happened to us before the Garden?" It could sell the idea of dawning horror so much better, and make it flow much more naturally from how Rinoa started out the conversation.
 
Personally, I'm 100% sure the memory issues aren't GF related. Because the game is going to try on one-upping itself again with another twist that it doesn't need.
 
What impact does this actually have on the story? I keep coming back around to the reveal that Cloud wasn't actually in SOLDIER as the closest equivalent from FF7. The sequence where Tifa helps piece Cloud back together has a major impact on the characters.

This... this has implications, but none of them land. The biggest things are adding fuel to the "Edea is possessed" theory, which I think has been pretty heavily telegraphed already, and maybe the idea that Cid has been orchestrating the characters coming together. Otherwise, its just a whole lot of nothing.
 
It took embarrassingly long for me to realize something: Irvine is not a SeeD.

Irvine never graduated from Garden, simply because he was used by Martine as the Galbadia Garden representative attached to the Balamb Garden team. And then events progressed such that he's not likely to get a proper General Certificate Of Garden Education, because now the Sorceress has taken over Galbadia Garden, probably also interrupting the educational career of the rest of its students.
Note that SeeDs are explicitly a Balamb Garden institution. Galbadia Garden funnels its graduates into the Galbadian military. (I don't think we ever learn what happens with Trabia students who don't transfer to Balamb to become SeeDs like Selphie does.)
 
And Evil!Cid returns in full force! Seriously, the messaging around him has been so inconsistent I'm honestly wondering if his actions and how he's framed are deliberately incongruous. Maybe he also has some kind of space ghost in his head that's massively shifted his personality at some point?
The Sorceress was Cid the whole time, and everything Edea's done so far was an elaborate ruse to force her to show her hand. The Sorceress is about ready to make her move for world domination with her elite army of brainwashed mercenary supersoldiers, she can't have some upstart impostor puppeting some tinpot dictator stealing her thunder. Edea's done terrible things for Galbadia, but she'll do anything to save her children. She hopes that killing Delling and taking over Galbadia herself will at least give her a chance to right some of her wrongs before all is said and done.
 
Quistis, Seifer and Squall finding each other in Balamb Garden is organic. I believe it. Every other addition? They feel like someone put their thumb on the scale. Like, did Cid specifically arrange for Selphie to be sent to contact Squad B? Did he have a special request to Martine to put Irvine in contact with the group? What's the deal with Seifer, anyway? This is way beyond what mere chance can explain, which leaves the two options being 'contrived coincidence by the author' and 'someone with agency within the narrative manipulating events.'
Sadly, I'm leaning on the former explanation right now, but maybe I'll be proven wrong. Even if we say it's manipulation, what, did Cid realize he didn't have enough orphans from the orphanage in the Garden and bribe Zell's foster family to pressure him to become a SEED? It gets pretty convoluted.
 
Cid's degree of genuine sinister-ness vs bumbling good intentions is, like, all over the place, and short of the game revealing that he was full-on evil the entire time and the hints of goodness were a lie, I'm not sure how it reconciles into a coherent character.
One option is Cid is having an internal monologue similar to Squall, detailing all his anxiety and panic at the fact that he has no clue what is going on with his wife and is making it up as he goes along. What comes out of his mouth is basically just spillover when he worries he's been quiet too long.
 
Back
Top