Lands of Red and Gold Interlude #8: The Foundation
This chapter was originally posted as an Invasion Day special (known in some circles as Australia Day). As with all of these specials, it should be taken in a light-hearted vein, although the gist is accurate.
--
Pietersen: The Prince fancies himself a wit.
Lord Nunyah: He is half right.
- Gunnamalong, "
In Praise of Silence", Day IV, Act III, Scene II
--
Taken from a discussion thread posted on the allohistory.com message board.
Note: all dates are in the Gregorian calendar. All message times are listed in what would be the equivalent of North American Eastern Standard Time.
Thread Title: WI No Red Yam
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Original Post
From: Kaiser Maximilian IV
Time: 19 August, 6:03 PM
This wot-if is inspired by Shaved Ape's excellent timeline
For Want of a Yam. For those of you who have been unlucky enough not to read it, Shaved Ape posited a divergence where the lesser yam evolved in 200 BC rather than 1400 AD. Since this is a tropically-suitable plant, agriculture spread northward along the Tohu Coast [tropical Queensland] over the next few centuries, rather than being confined to the subtropics of Aururia. That led to contact with New Guinea and the East Indies, and, well, maybe you should just read the rest yourself here.
I'm wondering about wot would happen if instead of having the lesser yam emerge earlier, the red yam never evolves in Aururia in the first place, or is wiped out by some super-plant disease or something (fungal rot, presumably). This changes things a whole lot, since the red yam was such an essential part of Aururian founding agriculture. In fact, it still is a vital crop today. It also wipes out the lesser yam entirely, though that's less of a problem since the sweet potato would still be arriving around 1300-1400 AD to replace it.
This is a big divergence, of course, and I'm not sure how it all of it would develop. In general, I think that this means a slower development of agriculture within Aururia. I don't know enough about other Aururian crops. Hopefully someone else who knows more about agriculture can pitch in.
Obviously, with a divergence this far back, the butterfly-maximum crowd will argue that history as we know it has been wiped out. I'm not interested in that sort of premise. For the sake of argument, let's just say that the butterflies are caged until there's contact with the wider world (Maori, Dutch, whoever).
Wot do you think, folks?
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From: ZigZag
Time: 19 August, 6:54 PM
I don't know a whole lot about the subject either, but since when has that ever stopped me?
According to my vague memories of Julius Sanford, the red yam was vital to Aururian agriculture. Wipe that out, and agriculture doesn't get started at all. No Five Rivers cradle of civilization. No Aururian crops at all. The whole continent remains hunter-gatherer until someone else arrives. So you're looking at a Maori Aururia. Or, if for some unlikely reason the Maori don't settle, a Dutch Aururia.
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From: Neck Romancer
Time: 19 August, 7:08 PM
Oh my gods! You've just rewritten the entire history of modern cuisine! No cornnarts [wattles], no black bread, no lemon verbena, no sweet peppers. No sweet peppers! This isn't a what-if, it's a tragedy!
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From: The Profound Wanderer
Time: 19 August, 7:10 PM
This is huge. Unrecognisable world-huge. And unlikely, in my not so humble opinion, but worth exploration as a thought-experiment scenario.
My first thoughts:
The Mediterranean is going to be an emptier, almost unrecognisable place. Red yams – and cornnarts, assuming that they're gone too – were tailor-made for Mediterranean agriculture. The Sicilian Agricultural Revolution is gone. Probably the Advent Revolution goes with it. Spain is poorer. The Ottomans lose the eighteenth-century population boom. Egypt is less affected, since their irrigation always let them grow more water-intensive crops, but the rest of the North African coast will be depleted.
The Cape ends up as a backwater for much, much longer. They can probably substitute some European crops for Aururian crops as a victualling station, but that's all the Cape will be.
Kunduri is gone, naturally. Unless tobacco can be grown there instead; a question I leave to those better agriculturally informed than me.
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From: Patrician
Time: 19 August, 7:29 PM
Good to see a what-if which the prime poster puts some thought into the consequences. Too many what-ifs these days are just one-sentence vacuous questions.
For the premise of this thread, as with previous posters I'm not very botanically minded, but are there other domesticates which may take the role of red yams? It seems a tad preposterous that the absence of one crop can cut short an entire continent's worth of agriculture. The early Aururians grew other crops besides the red yam.
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From: AlyssaBabe
Time: 19 August, 7:44 PM
Originally written by Neck Romancer:
> No sweet peppers! This isn't a what-if, it's a tragedy!
Food without sweet peppers is like James without Foolsom!
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From: Special Jimmy
Time: 19 August, 8:00 PM
@Patrician
This site needs to stop worshipping Julius Sanford. The man has a lot to answer for after writing Cannon, Clocks & Crops. Being a whale biologist does not make him a resident expert on everything. He's certainly no expert in history and botany.
Yes, agriculture will still develop in a red yam-less Aururia. Slower than in real history. But it will appear.
Aururia has a veritable host of native crops. Staple crops, I mean, not just flavourings such as sweet peppers or lemon verbena or what have you.
Let's see, there's half a dozen species of cornnarts, murnong, another yam [warran yam], Dutch flax (really Aururian, you know, despite the name), purslane, luto [bush pear], weeping rice. All domesticable crops. Plenty to start off agriculture in Aururia. Weeping rice looks especially promising.
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From: Response Set
Time: 19 August, 8:01 PM
I yam fed up with these agricultural divergences. Time after thyme, the board is peppered with these repetitive posts. I hunger for variety. Can't you folks cook up some more interesting threads?
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From: Max Pedant
Time: 19 August, 8:02 PM
@ZigZag
Agriculture will start later without the red yam. That is a given. But it is not the only domesticate. Aururia will still have farmers. What those farmers do will look rather different.
My own thought is that the red yam pre-empted the domestication of cereals. Aururian agriculture is almost unique in its absence of cereals among its prime crops. Andean agriculture may not have had any, since the evidence for maize is ambiguous. Except for that, only New Guinean agriculture lacked cereals completely.
Why did Aururia not produce any cereals? Except for weeping rice, but that is a minor crop domesticated late in the piece. I think that the red yam was so productive a plant, even when growing wild, that Aururian hunter-gatherers did not collect much in the way of grains. So there was no unconscious selection to turn wild Aururian cereals into domesticated crops. The red yam got in the way.
If the red yam is gone, cereals become more important. There is a wild species of Aururian millet which the prehistoric hunter-gatherers used for food. If that is being gathered more frequently due to the non-existence of red yams, then it is a good place to start for allohistorical Aururian agriculture. Once it gets going, then murnong and cornnarts will follow later.
There you have the beginning of an alternate agriculture. Slower than the real historical one, naturally, but still viable.
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From: Mark Antony the Guide
Time: 19 August, 8:16 PM
Originally written by Neck Romancer:
> Oh my gods! You've just rewritten the entire history of
> modern cuisine! No cornnarts, no black bread, no lemon
> verbena, no sweet peppers. No sweet peppers! This isn't
> a what-if, it's a tragedy!
Spices have near-universal human appeal. Even if agriculture starts later in Aururia, or even if it's the Maori who introduce agriculture, they will still discover, and love, the spices.
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From: AlyssaBabe
Time: 19 August, 8:23 PM
Originally written by Mark Antony the Guide:
> Spices have near-universal human appeal.
So my sweet pepper and lemon verbena potato cakes are still safe in this timeline? I can dig that.
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From: Elyk
Time: 19 August, 9:34 PM
Originally written by Special Jimmy:
> Plenty to start off agriculture in Aururia. Weeping
> rice looks especially promising.
Partner, weeping rice is in the wrong place to start off Aururian agriculture. It's found up and down the east coast, in higher rainfall areas, but not in the drier regions where agriculture began. It needs a good drenching every year to grow properly.
The whole advantage of the red yam was that it was drought tolerant, a vital quality in kicking off Aururian farming. The rainfall is so variable that drought tolerance is essential. The red yam did that better than anything else other than some of the cornnarts, and not even all of them.
Originally written by Max Pedant:
> Aururia will still have farmers. What those farmers
> do will look rather different.
Sanford thought not. While I think that too many members take him as gospel on all counts, he made a great deal of sense at times. Here, he talked about Aururia without red yams or Mesoamerica without maize as being places that would not be independent centres of plant domestication.
That would rather crimp their development, I think, if they have to wait for agriculture to spread from elsewhere. Aururia would be a pre-agricultural society. At most, they'd be like the Eastern Agricultural Complex in North America. Viz, a very limited crop selection, still reliant on some wild foods, and producing only a few small chiefdoms.
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From: Max Pedant
Time: 19 August, 10:17 PM
@Elyk
I think you are being quite pessimistic about Aururia's agricultural potential. The Eastern Agricultural Complex produced only a couple of crops which are still used today – sunflowers and squashes – and both of those were also domesticated elsewhere – Mesoamerica. Aururia gave us so much more, including three of the twenty biggest crops in the world today – red yams, cornnarts and murnong. Losing the red yam has major ramifications around the globe, but it does not prevent agriculture from starting in Aururia.
The plants which are left still offer enough to agriculture to develop more slowly. I have outlined one possible route, that involving the native Aururian millet. There are other potential paths to agriculture, such as the weeping rice route which Special Jimmy has suggested. The latter route would of course mean that agriculture would be confined to the east coast until murnong and cornnarts are domesticated, but it does not prevent agriculture entirely.
I agree that they would be slower to develop technology. Bronze Age, not Iron Age. The Yaroan civilization [1] may not develop at all, although they had their own local crops – a yam and one other root vegetable – which could be enough to get things started.
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From: The Ginger Menace
Time: 19 August, 10:54 PM
Wow. Warumpi Ngunna will have to come up with some new lyrics in this timeline. "Red Dirt Dreaming" won't sound the same at all!
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From: Hasta la Vista
Time: 19 August, 11:05 PM
Ginger, really? This thread is about a massive divergence several thousand years ago, which will reshape the history of the entire globe, and your contribution is to wonder about how your favourite band is going to rework a few lyrics?
Why don't you just start a thread about how the Edge Crash [Yellowstone] supervolcano erupts in 1802, wiping out all life in North America, and then wonder about the effects on Alleghanian cuisine in the twentieth century?
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From: The Ginger Menace
Time: 19 August, 11:11 PM
Because in that timeline, I'd still be smarter than the average ginger.
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From: Oliver James
Time: 20 August, 12:09 AM
@Hasta la Vista
Never mind what the Edge Crash supervolcano would do to cuisine; the effects of
this divergence on cuisine are just about unimaginable! If Sanford and Elyk are right, this's wiped out a whole continent's worth of agriculture.
It's like imagining cooking without New World crops: no tomatoes, potatoes, chilli peppers, chocolate, bell peppers, cashews, peanuts, maize, pineapples, passionfruit, sweet potato, pumpkin, most kinds of beans, avocado. And on and on. The list is almost endless.
Now take the same thing for Aururian contributions to cuisine.
The red yam is gone (obviously), but that's only the start. Forget the other food crops for a moment. No jeeree [lemon tea] as your calming evening drink. No
kunduri to smoke. No
duranj [gum cider] to drink, either.
As for cooking, well, half of my favourite recipes are now gone. No cornnarts and no murnong, so there's a big problem right there. So much for black flour or roasted murnong. But there's now much less flavour in the world. Bye-bye the sweet peppers – all of them. A pepper by any other name could never taste so sweet. No lemon verbena either. Or cinnamon verbena. No ovasecca [desert raisin]. Alas, poor white ginger, I knew thee well. Farewell rotunda [native thyme-mint], we shared many happy times.
I think that in this timeline I'd spend most of my time moping.
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From: Neville Maximum
Time: 20 August, 12:24 AM
The cuisine in this timeline's Alleghania will be more like Cali-fornication.
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From: Nobody Important
Time: 20 August, 12:28 AM
This topic is making me hungry.
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From: Neville Maximum
Time: 20 August, 12:35 AM
@Nobody Important
Better hurry and cook up some roast murnong flavoured with rotunda and cracked sweet pepper, just to celebrate that you still can!
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From: Lopidya
Time: 20 August, 12:41 AM
Originally written by Oliver James:
> I think that in this timeline I'd spend most of my time moping.
It gets worse. I just realised that there's no wineberries [2] in this timeline either. So no blue wine. There goes Christmas.
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From: Elyk
Time: 20 August, 7:14 AM
Originally written by Max Pedant:
> I agree that they would be slower to develop technology.
> Bronze Age, not Iron Age. The Yaroan civilization
> may not develop at all, although they had their own local
> crops – a yam and one other root vegetable – which could
> be enough to get things started.
I don't like repeating myself, partner, but the red yam was essential. The other crops are mighty useful ones to have around today, but they weren't what kicked things off. Without the red yam, you're not going to get all of the first crops needed for agriculture together in the right place.
Not just Sanford says that. Look at Edelstein's work on the archaeology of Aururian agriculture. Red yams were the first crops needed everywhere. Not just on the Nyalananga, but among the Yaora as well. The Yaora had other crops which they developed later, sure, but nothing happened with those crops until red yams came along from the east.
Take out the red yam, and all of that potential is gone. Yes, cornnarts are good staple crops, but no one is going to start agriculture by domesticating a tree. That hasn't happened anywhere. The generation time and effort is too long.
The no-red-yam divergence date means we're looking at what happens when the Maori visit Aururia and bring agriculture with them.
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From: Mtshutshumbe
Time: 20 August, 9:21 AM
You've butterflied away Plirism. You bastard.
To be serious, Africa in this timeline is going to be a
weird place. No Plirism. No noroons [emus]. As The Profound Wanderer suggested, the Cape will be unrecognisable, but that's just the start. Only the start.
What will fill the vacuum created by an absence of Plirism? To say nothing of a slower spread of the literacy that came alongside it. At a guess, this means that Islam would penetrate much further into Africa than it did already, eventually spreading to most of the continent, barring perhaps a few Christian enclaves. The Dar al-Islam may become the largest religion in the world.
North Africa is a whole new ball game too. Probably a game with both fewer players and fewer spectators.
What European involvement in Africa looks like in this timeline will also be seriously weird. Things have changed enough throughout the world that I hesitate to speculate too much about the details, but things like lack of
kunduri growing will surely slow some of the influx of capital that, together with that from sugar, financed the Industrial Revolutions. I doubt this will abort industrialisation totally, but it will certainly slow things down.
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From: Davey Cricket
Time: 20 August, 10:35 AM
Kaiser, you need to give some clarity about your divergence.
There's too many people arguing over "no Aururian agriculture", that's one kind of scenario, or "slower Aururian agriculture", which is quite another. The whole discussion is going off on tangents, so can you let us know what you're thinking of? The no Aururian agriculture sounds more interesting to my ears since it's quantifiable, while "slower Aururian agriculture" could lead to a whole range of scenarios.
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From: Three-Humped Camel
Time: 20 August, 11:34 AM
So there's no farming at all in Aururia. Hunter-gatherers hold sway in the south and east just as they did in the north and west in real history. The immense natural resources of the continent remain untapped, since the locals lack the manpower or economic structure to make exploiting them viable.
The Maori land in the east sometime around 1300. Somewhere. No-one's quite sure where. Maybe they settle there, maybe they don't. It's a long way back to Aotearoa, they're not short of land back home right now. Not much tech or population advantage over the locals.
If the Maori do colonise Aururia, they won't expand very far or very fast. Sweet potato, taro and Maori yams can grow on the east coast, better than in Aotearoa itself, but still not all that well unless and until the Maori expand much further north than any likely place of first contact.
So if there are Maori in Aururia, they cling to the east coast where the rainfall's highest, and are slowly expanding over the next couple of hundred years. IF – and it's a big if – the Maori discover some of the eastern coast spices, they might start cultivating them. But probably not. A couple of hundred years is not much time to become familiar with all of the new wild plants, or to start cultivating them on a big scale.
The big changes happen in 1619, when de Houtman arrives in the Atjuntja lands – all right, what would have been the Atjuntja lands – and finds... nothing.
No farmers, no gold, no sandalwood, nothing. No reason to stick around and explore further east, so he has a quick look and then sails on north. I doubt that the Dutch will do anything more to explore Aururia. De Houtman wasn't the first Duch sailor to visit the continent, after all, and the rest had sailed north again after finding nothing to interest them.
Perhaps the Dutch East India Company eventually gets around to sending a ship around the south coast, but that expedition won't find much of interest either. Unless it makes it as far as any Maori settlements on the east coast, and even then, there will only be interest if the Maori have started cultivating verbenas or sweet peppers or jeeree. Even if they have, there won't be the same supplies of it, so a much slower process of building up Dutch influence among the Maori.
What does this mean for the wider world? So many changes that it's impossible to keep track of all of them, but a few do leap to mind.
The continent certainly won't have the same name in this allohistory, since it won't be the Land of Gold. No Aururian gold for the wider world. The vast supply of bullion that lies under Thijszenia [Tasmania], Djawrit [Bendigo] and Timwee [Kalgoorlie] stays there for centuries to come.
The economic effects of that will be considerable, starting with no seventeenth-century inflation across Western and Central Europe. In the longer term, probably a currency shortage without the bullion to issue coinage. How will industrialisation proceed, or will it proceed at all, without that abundance of currency to facilitate economic growth?
Likewise, no silver from Gwee Langta [Broken Hill]. The biggest seventeenth-century source of silver no longer exists. Since most of that ended up in the bullion sinks of Cathay and Corea, the consequences for that trade will also be severe. Much harder to buy spices for Europe now, though I leave the consequences of this for those more versed in East Asian history than I.
The other massive, massive change is this: no Aururian plagues. No Marnitja sweeping across the world, no blue-sleep wiping out the Austrian Habsburgs. A much more populated world in general.
Picking out how all of that will unfold is a herculean effort. To choose just one part of the thread, Gustavus Adolphus survives the *Twenty Years' War in this allohistory, thanks to no Waiting Death. This means a stronger position for Sweden in northern Europe during and after the war. Perhaps a greater Swedish presence around the Baltic? The Baltic could well become Mare Seonium. Given GA's proclivities, this would also probably lead to more vigorous Swedish colonisation of North America and the Caribbean.
To take things to the bigger picture, the lack of plagues and associated disruption will see more European colonists settling in the New World (mostly North America and Brazil) during the seventeenth century, and into the eighteenth. England and Portugal will be the biggest sources, as they were in real history, but they will have more company. The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, and France too. Come to think of it, Richelieu showed some interest in colonies, if I remember right, so since he survives the plagues, he will encourage more French colonies in the New World. Stronger French settlement in Canada, perhaps, leading to France retaining the colony?
You're looking at a more populated Europe, and indeed a more populated world. One with stunted economic growth
per capita (less currency and capital), but a bigger market, and without the mixed blessings of inflation. From a political standpoint, this also means that there is none of the inflation which put pressure on the noble estates (who mostly had fixed rents), and which so severely weakened aristocratic power across the continent. Absolutism either doesn't get established, has a few more holdouts, or ends earlier. Or all of those.
Europe in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries won't look much like the world we know, that's for sure.
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From: Max Pedant
Time: 20 August, 11:59 AM
@Elyk
See, this is the type of pointless monomaniacal obsession which absolutely frustrates me. When presented with a sweeping divergence which could lead to a multitude of outcomes, too many posters insist that there is One True Way that the divergence could play out, other options be damned.
Here, you are too focused on the path in which our history happened to follow, and ignoring alternatives. No matter what Sanford writes, the absence of the red yam does not mean that agriculture will never develop in Aururia.
The red yam got Aururia to agriculture first. Yes, no disputing that at all. But it is a ridiculous leap of logic to go from that fact to present a false dichotomy of "either there is a red yam, or Aururia has no indigenous farming". You are ignoring that in an allohistory, some
other crop may have got there second. I have already pointed out one potential crop, and Special Jimmy has pointed out another. Yet you remain blind to these alternatives, and focus on the way it happened in real history.
Or if you want me to put it more succinctly: This is
allohistory.com. History.com is over that way.
For myself, I think that the idea of a slower-developing Aururia is a fascinating what-if to explore. But it is not possible to have that discussion when you keep getting interrupted by people digitally shouting "It could not happen! Go home!"
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From: The Immortal Clements
Time: 20 August, 12:51 PM
Originally written by Max Pedant:
> For myself, I think that the idea of a slower- developing
> Aururia is a fascinating what-if to explore.
If Aururia is yam-less, agriculture still happens.
Never mind this kerfuffle over where and when red yams might have showed up. There's another prime agricultural origin just waiting.
The Junditmara are calling. Look at them. They settled down and worked out aquaculture long before anyone on the Nyalananga had even started cultivating yams. If they're settled down, they're halfway to starting agriculture. Give them enough time, and they'll manage the other half.
Agriculture spread to the Junditmara from the Nyalananga in our history, but they would have found it on their own regardless. Millet, weeping rice, cornnarts, whatever the case may be.
Different outcomes, different pace without the red yam, but the Junditmara give you the
where for agriculture. We just need to work out the
when.
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From: Ebony Aunt
Time: 20 August, 1:23 PM
Originally written by Three-Humped Camel:
> Europe in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries won't look
> much like the world we know, that's for sure.
Without so much bullion around, and with more of what's left ending up in Cathay without Aururian spices to balance the trade, then Europe will certainly have a cash crisis.
Maybe an earlier take-up of paper money to replace the missing bullion?
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From: X-Dreamer
Time: 20 August, 2:37 PM
@THC
Too damned right!
If Aururia's empty, the Dutch aren't going there. What's in it for them? Profits, sweet profits, was all the VOC cared about. Janszoon visited the north in 1606, looked around, and left. In 1616, Hartog came, Hartog saw, and Hartog absconded. In 1619, De Houtman found gold and sandalwood, and so he and Coen cared enough for him to come back. With an empty Aururia, de Houtman is like those before him, he lands a couple of times, draws some good charts, leaves, and never returns.
So in this allohistory, Aururia won't be Dutch. What it will be is strongly Portuguese-influenced, and the single biggest demographic will be the Maori who've settled on the east.
Portugal cares for profits, but it also cares enough to send missions. Or some of its people will. You'll be looking at missions gradually established around the whole continent. Including eventually with the Maori. No other European power will trouble itself over Aururia for a very long time, if ever.
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From: Stuffed Pork Chop
Time: 20 August, 3:55 PM
@X-Dreamer
Aren't you assuming that there'll even be a Portugal in this allohistory? They were still part of Spain at the time. I doubt they'd revolt without the effects of the Aururian plagues and the consequent over-taxation.
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From: X-Dreamer
Time: 20 August, 4:04 PM
@SPC
Portugal still ran its own affairs in the colonies. Even if they stay with Spain and end up being integrated, they will still be influencing Aururia for a while. This might later mean a Spanish Aururia.
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From: Professor Harpsichord
Time: 20 August, 4:24 PM
Put me down for another who subscribes to the slower development of agriculture model. I don't buy this "red yam above all" contention that some here are pushing.
Sanford was no expert on botany. He should have taken up ornithology or something instead of pretending to be a historian.
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From: Lord Nunyah
Time: 20 August, 5:57 PM
Originally written by Three-Humped Camel:
> Likewise, no silver from Gwee Langta. The biggest
> seventeenth-century source of silver no longer exists.
> Since most of that ended up in the bullion sinks of
> Cathay and Korea, the consequences for that trade will
> also be severe. Much harder to buy spices for Europe
> now, though I leave the consequences of this for those
> more versed in East Asian history than I.
I'm no expert, but there's an intriguing confluence of timing here in the fall of the Northern Ming and the division of Cathay.
Cathay was united under the Ming in 1619. Troubled, but still united. In real history, it copped famines in the north, economic problems after Spain cut off the illegal silver trade across the Pacific to Cathay, leading to taxation revolts, the double-whammy of the two Aururian plagues in quick succession, upstart generals, and ultimately the overthrow of the Ming in the north by the new You, leading to their retreat to southern Cathay.
In allohistory, the Ming are still in trouble. The root causes of famines are still there, and I don't think that a lack of Aururian contact will butterfly away the Spanish closure of the silver smuggling. The Aururian epidemics will not happen, but I think there was at least one unrelated epidemic during this era anyway.
The Ming are probably still gone from the north. The details differ, with some other Cathayan general being the one blessed by heaven, but a new dynasty is born. Whether the alternative dynasty is capable of pushing out the Southern Ming is a good question.
Whatever else happens, though, there's still a Cathayan dynasty that will be lacking in Aururian silver. Economic problems galore. The new *You may not look much like the old You.
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From: Patrician
Time: 20 August, 6:38 PM
@ Lord Nunyah
In a no-agriculture scenario, or a slower-agriculture so no plagues scenario, I think that the Ming will limp on. There had been rebellions before, and will be again regardless of any Aururian contact. The death toll from the plagues was the crucial factor – 20+% of the population!
The Ming were hardly decrepit. They held on fine in the South even with the plagues. Without those plagues, there will be rebellions and tax revolts galore, and a lot of trouble, but I think that the Ming live on in the north. A united Cathay would be an interesting consequence.
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From: Kaiser Maximilian IV
Time: 20 August, 7:02 PM
Originally written by Three-Humped Camel:
> Europe in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries won't look
> much like the world we know, that's for sure.
Thanks for the very well-thought out, detailed response. Guess you weren't smoking anything when you wrote this, hey, THC?
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From: Kaiser Maximilian IV
Time: 20 August, 7:11 PM
Originally written by Davey Cricket:
> Kaiser, you need to give some clarity about
> your divergence.
You make some good points, but part of the discussion needs to be which of those is more feasible. Which way
would Aururia develop without the red yam? If it is a slower agriculture scenario, which is actually the one that interests me, then I'm keen to hear how other people think that agriculture would develop. I don't want to just randomly grab some particular form of slower agriculture, and then strangle that discussion.
Shaved Ape, if you're reading this, then your expertise would be invaluable here.
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From: Space Wasp
Time: 20 August, 8:37 PM
Too much cross-purposes speculation, and no concrete scenario.
Fine, I'll write one. A slower-developing Aururia is more in line with KMIV's wishes, plus it gives us something to work with other than "desert of red where the land of gold used to be".
For ease of calculation, and by sacrificing a hundred trillion butterflies on the altar of simplicity, let's say that Aururia develops
exactly how it did historically, but eight hundred years slower. The lack of red yams has been balanced by more murnong, cornnarts, and a new crop of millet. But otherwise, agriculture still starts along the Nyalananga, the Great Migrations occur, egcetera, egcetera.
In 1300 or thereabouts, the Maori arrive on the east coast. By caging an additional ten trillion butterflies in the world's largest lepidoptera museum, sweet potatoes still make it across with the Maori, spreading north slowly and allowing the proto-Kiyungu to begin their own moves up the Tohu Coast. But the Empire is still there, in the interior, and still expansionistic.
In 1619, de Houtman lands on the far west, and finds a barely agricultural people. In another two years, Weemiraga is due to make his great March to the Sea and conquer the Patjimunra.
What happens next?
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From: ZigZag
Time: 21 August, 6:03 PM
Originally written by Space Wasp:
> What happens next?
What happens next is that the thread ends over confusion about which scenario to take up.
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From: Shaved Ape
Time: 22 August, 1:23 AM
KMIV, I think you'll find that this thread has died because the divergence you've suggested is simply too broad for people to do more than post some brief general speculation. Which they've already done.
Other than that, the changes are just so overwhelming that people can't even have a coherent discussion, because everyone is coming at it from different perspectives. I think this is something that needs to be timelined rather than what-iffed.
And no, I'm not volunteering to write another timeline based on a "no red yam" divergence. Writing For Want of a Yam was already more than enough effort. Only a person with far too much time on their hands and who's a secret masochist would write even one timeline based on a globe-changing agricultural divergence. Writing a second such timeline would take a particular kind of suicidal obsession which I lack.
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[1] i.e. the fertile south-western corner of historical Western Australia, which in allohistorical times was ruled by the Atjuntja. The name Yaoran refers to the collective name given to all of the farming peoples who dwelt there.
[2] Wineberry or
yolnu is a plant which is historically called ruby saltbush (
Enchylaena tomentosa). This plant has a variety of uses in allohistorical Aururia and around the world, but its most notable feature is that it can be used to flavour wine or
ganyu (yam wine).
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Thoughts?