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[L5R] Minor Clan Quest

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HastyGaming said:
'The Emerald Champion does truly wonderful work, even when dealing with such distasteful matters as tax, but it seems unjust that a warrior, a Samurai, of his caliber should have to... And it only distracts from the honourable and important aspects of his role, so perhaps those aspects should be removed from his purview?'
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Taxes aren't really QUITE the same as trade. On the administration end of the the warrior/administrator samurai spectrum I'm pretty sure taxes are pretty much the core of the job.
 
I think messing with the duties of the Emerald Champion is probably beyond our ability to swing, politically. The Otomo aren't dumb, and they'll see the suggestion as exactly what it is: us trying to use our new connections to strike at the Crane. Just making the suggestion might cost us by making them think more poorly of us, and it's unlikely to happen. That kind of big shift is more the sort of thing that might happen after the Crane lose a big political fight, not as an opening move.

Also more generally, escalating against the Crane is probably counterproductive. I know it goes against all of our player character instincts, but we're not going to win against a major clan if they start seeing us as a real enemy and not a mere obstacle/prop in their feud with the Crab. The only way we were able to hurt them at all in the first month was basically a perfect storm of everything going amazingly right for us and amazingly wrong for the Crane. But - as we've already seen - we're not going to be that lucky every time.
 
anowack said:
I think messing with the duties of the Emerald Champion is probably beyond our ability to swing, politically. The Otomo aren't dumb, and they'll see the suggestion as exactly what it is: us trying to use our new connections to strike at the Crane. Just making the suggestion might cost us by making them think more poorly of us, and it's unlikely to happen. That kind of big shift is more the sort of thing that might happen after the Crane lose a big political fight, not as an opening move.
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You're thinking too short term. No one's suggesting we do this right now in retaliation for what the Crane did, it's a long term objective that benefits the Empire as a whole by introducing some balance to the Emerald Champions position.

And I disagree that it would require a big Crane loss before it could happen. The Emperor might not regularly make changes to the Imperial Bureaucracy but it happens often enough that it's not so uncommon to be a huge deal; it does require some preparation though. But again, this is a suggestion we can make to the Otomo and maybe the Emperor at the right time and then just watch it happen because it is a good idea for the Empire and it does make sense for the Imperial Families. It's not something we need to campaign for.
 
As far as possible long term objectives go, I would like for us to acquire some manner of Shugenja support. Getting a family devoted to it might be a bridge too far, but it'd be a good idea to keep our eyes open. I say this mainly because having some form of institutional support for dealing with the Kami and the Strange is a good idea in Rokugan, especially since the Catfish's lands border on the Shinomen Mori.

The most we might be able to do at present is strengthen the presence of the Brotherhood of Shinsei in Catfish lands towards that end, but even that is quite useful I think. The Brotherhood are a powerful force in Rokugan, and getting them thinking well of the Catfish would pay dividends for a long time to come.
 
The thing with the Emerald Champion and Imperial Treasurer is something we could bring up, but not push too heavily, yeah.

Which reminds me; I already suggested that we should also look about sending some of our people to train at other clans' courtier schools, in addition to the bushi dojos; given our upcoming marriage with Katsura, it's possible that we might be able to send some people to the Otomo's courtier school as well.

Emerald Oracle said:
As far as possible long term objectives go, I would like for us to acquire some manner of Shugenja support. Getting a family devoted to it might be a bridge too far, but it'd be a good idea to keep our eyes open. I say this mainly because having some form of institutional support for dealing with the Kami and the Strange is a good idea in Rokugan, especially since the Catfish's lands border on the Shinomen Mori.
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Agreed, though unless we manage to marry a number of shugenja into our clan, that's probably fairly unlikely in the near future.

Though, IIRC shugenja can appear almost everywhere, I believe, so if there happen to be some born amongst us they'd still need training. Aren't there some shugenja-heavy minor clans around? Might be an interesting idea to look whether we could work something out with them, if possible.
 
Hm, that's a good point Kelenas about the Shugenja heavy minor clans... OOOH! IDEA! The Centipede Clan is presently still extant! They're a matriarchal clan of shugenja who eventually joined up as one of the three families of the Mantis during the 11th century, but at present they're still independent. They're somewhat isolated and insular so getting them to agree to it might be difficult, but the fact that the founder of the Catfish is female, and has been doing her best to improve the situation of women (somewhat, it can be spun that way anyway) might help a great deal.

The Moshi Family's whole schtick is a significant adherence to Amaterasu, and once the Mantis were a Major Clan they were the foundation of the Thunder Magics that they got. Well, that and the whole blessing of the mortal Thunder dragon on the whole clan, but still!

Besides the Centipede Clan, the only other minor clan that might have something of a glut of Shugenja that I can think of off of the top of my head is the Fox Clan. By virtue of geographic necessity the Fox have a great many shugenja. The Kitsune Mori is neither forgiving nor terribly mundane.

Sadly, no Salamander or Raven Clans, or else I'd say jump on those options with both feet.
 
Beyond the Minor Clans there's also the Order of Kanosei Furudera which are to our north in the 'Temple of Kanosei Furudera' (tended to by the Brotherhood of Shinsei) near the Chrysanthemum Petal Lake. It's a Ronin Shugenja Dojo whose members essentially travel Rokugan doing good deeds.
 
I think we're going to be pretty hard-pressed to absorb any minor clans. I *suspect* that getting major shugenja support for our clan is going to require something on the order of a Clan Champion marriage pick. For less major support... well, it was mentioned that the Phoenix would like to examine Shinomen Mori. Seems like we could reasonably offer them an embassy and local support to do that with, in return for some sort of assistance in Void rank.
 
I don't think full on Minor Clan absorption was the idea Sirrocco, I know I was more thinking along the lines of "who has extras they might be willing to send over to help us." Upon consideration, that might be as difficult as a full absorption now that I think of it, given the secretive nature of much of Rokugan... Still, it's worth considering given our present situation next to the Shinomen Mori.

Hasty, the order is a good point of opportunity, but not so much for absorption I think. The main problem with absorbing them would be that they seem fairly devoted to not being Clan Samurai. Their schtick is ministering to the heimin and the lower classes in general, which would be somewhat difficult to manage as part of a Clan, even a minor one, Sparrow not withstanding. We should definitely use them as a vector for greater closeness with the Brotherhood of Shinsei, but I don't think they'd join up even if we asked.
 
Sirrocco said:
think we're going to be pretty hard-pressed to absorb any minor clans.
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Absolutely, we're not going to be absorbing any other Minor Clans for quite a while; although with the Hare and Sparrow regularly having troubles with food and resources and us set to run surpluses there's potential in the longer term.

Major Shugenja support is also likely out. I think at best we'll get help from Kanosei Furudera, the Fox Clan, the Crab etc.

If we're exceptionally lucky some Shugenja will distinguish himself enough to be given a family name and decide to join us like the Ujina family did when they were given a name and immediately joined the Hare. But yea... exceptionally luck required.
Emerald Oracle said:
Hasty, the order is a good point of opportunity, but not so much for absorption I think.
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Oh sorry, I wasn't suggesting we could absorb them. Just that they're nearby and could provide help and with our Ronin roots they'd probably be likely to help.
 
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The Sparrow are...basically everything we are not, in multiple senses. We share being a Minor Clan, but basically no more. They might make an ally at times, but even then only a small one. They exist because they're not worth bothering with. It's how they've lasted so long.
 
Absorbing any minor clans was definitely not the idea.
The point/question was more what to do with any shugenja that might crop up amongst our clan; IIRC.

Basically, so far we seem to have focused mostly on how to build up our clan's warrior traditions, but we also need to think about our courtiers, and to some lesser extent shugenja as well.
 
Night said:
The Sparrow are...basically everything we are not, in multiple senses. We share being a Minor Clan, but basically no more.
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Not really, it's true they're a small and poor clan (poorer than us) due to the lands they have but like the Catfish they're not overly proud, to the extent that the Samurai will even work in the fields if necessary. They also have a great love of art and plays due to the poverty of their lands.

We're different - everyone is - but it's not as if we've nothing in common.
Kelenas said:
The point/question was more what to do with any shugenja that might crop up amongst our clan; IIRC.
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Honestly I would just vote to send them to whatever dojo we can manage; Fox, Crab, Ronin etc. We're likely to have so few that it's not worth any substantial investment at this point.

Or have an apprentice system? Would Chouko be capable of training them?
 
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Given the Catfish Clan holdings border the Shinomen Mori they're likely going to need a Shugenja tradition in a way that most minor Clans admittedly don't. In most of Rokugan it's alright to rely on the Brotherhood or on traveling Great Clan Shugenja, bordering the Shinomen Mori? Not so much. At least, that's my take on things.

The Catfish have their Bushi traditions already firming up, and their patronage of Geisha and what's already happened at this Winter Court has made it clear that a Courtier division is going to be a necessity as well. I just don't want a Shugenja tradition to be a result of a horrible plague of misshapen beasts spewing forth from the forbidden forest of doom y'know?
 
HastyGaming said:
Not really, it's true they're a small and poor clan (poorer than us) due to the lands they have but like the Catfish they're not overly proud, to the extent that the Samurai will even work in the fields if necessary. They also have a great love of art and plays due to the poverty of their lands.
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We're mercantile and relatively wealthy.

The Sparrow are poor because of their founder's philosophical misdeeds; because that is their philosophical and moral underpinning of how they see the world. Their samurai work the fields because they must, because they live poor lives in poor areas, because such was the stated desire of their founder.

The fact we are not overly proud and neither are they has everything to do with the fact the Sparrow cannot afford pride, like many other luxuries, whereas we are not proud because it gets in the way.

Our involvement with arts and plays is on an entirely different level from anything the Sparrow are capable of, much less would approve of having spent on it.

The Sparrow have made a virtue of everything about their struggles. To them we would be soft, and tainted by our mercantilist and relatively rich ways. We and they share only our Minor Clan status and troubles from it; in their eyes even our similarities would only be yawning differences.
 
Emerald Oracle said:
I just don't want a Shugenja tradition to be a result of a horrible plague of misshapen beasts spewing forth from the forbidden forest of doom y'know?
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So...a fighty shujena school with Fire Affinity whose philosophical underpinings are pyromania and a deep and abiding hatred of trees and animals in general.

I...do not see the problem here?:V
 
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Wade Garrett said:
So...a fighty shujena school with Fire Affinity whose philosophical underpinings are pyromania and a deep and abiding hatred of trees and animals in general.

I...do not see the problem here?:V
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Well, that way leads to a Crab style Shugenja school, devoted to FIRE AND BURNINANTION. Not bad, but I'd much prefer something more like the Agasha/Tamori tradition, or the Asako. Hell, I'd take the Kitsu in a pinch! Something that's goddamn USEFUL besides destroying things, but is also good at destroying things!
 
Emerald Oracle said:
Well, that way leads to a Crab style Shugenja school, devoted to FIRE AND BURNINANTION. Not bad, but I'd much prefer something more like the Agasha/Tamori tradition, or the Asako. Hell, I'd take the Kitsu in a pinch! Something that's goddamn USEFUL besides destroying things, but is also good at destroying things!
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I think the Firemen potion of our Clan would be able to make creative use of that.
 
Gaining more shugenja is likely to be a long-term project for the Namazu, as is the potential for getting anything like the Imperial Treasurer position created. In canon, the latter was accomplished mostly because political manipulations put an ineffective person in the Champion's position, and there existing just a whole bunch of political hullabaloo overall. It's probably unlikely to happen in a time of peace and stasis, though we shall see.

As to the shugenja; in canon the Yoritomo developed a shugenja school basically by being willing to do what was necessary to make sure that their clan had that resource. You can certainly do the same, but there will likely be a price of some kind associated with such an investment.

I have been suffering a bit from writer burnout for the past week, but am slowly recovering. I think I have about half an update written so far, if the internet hasn't eaten it - update possibly tonight, possibly tomorrow.
 
Honestly? I'd prefer something like one of the Void Orders in the Brotherhood of Shinsei. They get some CRAZY shenanigans, and Void mojo is always nice! Even if it's completely impossible to get a Void Tradition since the Isawa would jump on the Catfish with steel toed boots if they tried. Failing that, Fire would work, though Thunder would be nice too if similarly impossible to Void.

Maybe Water as that's the one that lets you jaw with Spirits? It would also mean that Catfish Shipping would be SUPER Speedy...
 
Emerald Oracle said:
Honestly? I'd prefer something like one of the Void Orders in the Brotherhood of Shinsei. They get some CRAZY shenanigans, and Void mojo is always nice! Even if it's completely impossible to get a Void Tradition since the Isawa would jump on the Catfish with steel toed boots if they tried. Failing that, Fire would work, though Thunder would be nice too if similarly impossible to Void.

Maybe Water as that's the one that lets you jaw with Spirits? It would also mean that Catfish Shipping would be SUPER Speedy...
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Air is the one that best lets you speak to spirits, actually; Water spirits are notoriously silent and communicate only in pictures. Having an order that can literally put wind in your sails would be fairly handy...

And yeah, Void or Thunder are going to be pretty unlikely without some serious shenanigans.
 
storybookknight said:
And yeah, Void or Thunder are going to be pretty unlikely without some serious shenanigans.
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Well, clearly we just need to make sure that Tsubaki earns the enduring favor of the Thunder Dragon! The great Celestial Beast has probably already got one eye on her after her performance saving the Son of Heaven and then that Heroic Level Song she put on. Just need to solidify those gains! Clearly it's manageable! :p
 
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