Remove ads

Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

Reader mode
The fear ultimately still resides in the issue of this opening up the Popular Body being an Army. And there is a world of difference between an army taking control of a Prophet and an army actively crowning a Prophet because they have the mechanisms for it.

But again as I said, lets just move on from this discussion. Its been a long few days and Ravhood is a compromise option that satisfies the demands of most everyone.
 
[X] The Rose That is all Thorns. On the cruelty that husbands believe is their right, and the vile darkness of abuse.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Acuity. Vashti should cautiously build alliances with those outside of the Ischak, in particular in the capital of Nachivan and the Sanhedron.
[X] Ravhood. Vashti is a Rav, whose righteousness substitutes for study! [Available because of your Fundament Sayings of Guru Myriam].

Hwârvahr is from a country where husbands have much more authority over their wives, so I think she would intuitively support anything to alleviate the use of cruelty and violence against women, as well as the domestic authority of men over women.

The cultural logic of Elevation and Disavowal don't make sense to someone from the Guarded Domains, so she would probably not support those, no matter how committed a Pugilist she is in the case of the former. In the Domains, the age of revelation is not considered to have ended, so Prophethood is probably the one she'd support most intuitively, but for the sake of conciliation, I think she'd end up going for Ravhood.
 
Remove ads
Last Sage Standing [art by sakura-rose12]
  • Media
    • Cetashwayo said:
    It is true, as the sect surmised, however, that Ma'on is devastated. It is not enough that the golden calf that has replaced God in the minds of the high steals men from their homes and their families and makes of their bodies sacrifices to the altar profitable. No, they must also slaughter those who challenge this. The cantor Ulvarani Bharya was among the oldest of the sect, who was called Giant Grandfather, a close friend and co-founder of the movement and its martial art with the Guru Bluff. And when they hear the story of Yoni, the tough men of Ma'on do nothing more than weep, and some bang their fists in solidarity. It is not enough, they cry, that they cut down our elders who will guide us forth, but also the children who will be our future, brave boys who should not have to be so brave as to sacrifice their lives.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Cetashwayo said:
    The Ma'on Mekdash falls, and those fighters inside who stayed to protect it are butchered by the swords of Jaekelopterus.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Cetashwayo said:
    Among the perished, many of Ma'on, slaughtered in their temple...
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Cetashwayo said:
    Guru Bluff, the blind behemoth of the Western Navel, and last sage standing of Ma'on
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    LAST SAGE STANDING​

    Art by sakura-rose12
     
    Last edited:
  • Media
    • Saying elevation is inherently atheist is a pretty revealing position when it comes to popular sovereignity. Fearing the potential of democratic prophethood while doubling down on Vaspurakans theocratic character just amounts to embracing continued rule by the old elites.

    A lot of the stuff brought forward by the anti-elevation camp are anti-revolutionary and anti-democratic arguments. A vote for elevation is a vote for continued revolution and god knows we made enough compromises in favor of moderation lately.
     
    [X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
    [X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
    [X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.
    [X] Ravhood. Vashti is a Rav, whose righteousness substitutes for study! [Available because of your Fundament Sayings of Guru Myriam].
     
    None of these options are non-theocratic, elevation is just a theocratic democracy.

    Let's cool the temperature please. I think discussion is derailing a bit from the options to suppositions of their effects which are too broad. This is not the endpoint for any option chosen.
     
    Anchises said:
    Saying elevation is inherently atheist is a pretty revealing position when it comes to popular sovereignity. Fearing the potential of democratic prophethood while doubling down on Vaspurakans theocratic character just amounts to embracing continued rule by the old elites.

    A lot of the stuff brought forward by the anti-elevation camp are anti-revolutionary and anti-democratic arguments. A vote for elevation is a vote for continued revolution and god knows we made enough compromises in favor of moderation lately.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Okay no dont do this. Literally all the arguments the Ravhood and Incarnation voters brought were democratic and populist by nature. As the focus is on them providing a way to distribute power to others as well.

    Unless you really wanna start another revolutionary circle of stabbing that just ends with the revolution fucking dead because people think pragmatic compromises and alliances are stupid. Which again, ends with the revolution dying before it can even really start.

    Marx literally warned people about this. Revolution is a War. Strategy wins wars. Not fucking shooting your own allies because you think they aren't ideological enough, which is untrue anyways.
     
    Last edited:
    Democracy as it is already has problems with popular demagogues creating political movements that are essentially cults of personality that support the leader no matter their actions, I really rather not create a doctrine that emphasizes and legitimizes that aspect by confirming that yes, your support means your leader has connection to God and can hardly stumble.

    I also have problems with the theology of it. Popular support elevates someone by confirming that they were always a prophet, but actually it doesn't, because if they lose it, that means retroactively they weren't a prophet and the precious confirmation didn't count? Seems too flimsy for such a serious thing as divine connection to me, unless I misunderstood it.
     
    And its not anti-anything to warn about the potential dangers of divinely sanctioning what could potentially turn into Mob-backed rule, figuring out how to avoid that and instilling a democratic society that can vote and hold leaders to account while avoiding the dangers of mob mentality as much as possible is literally the defining internal struggle of any democratic and liberation and revolutionary movements.

    "Know yourself and you will win every battle"
    Pretend the problems and dangers dont exist and good luck I guess.
     
    Deadly Snark said:
    Okay no dont do this. Literally all the arguments the Ravhood and Incarnation voters brought were democratic and populist by nature. Unless you really wanna start another revolutionary circle of stabbing that just ends with the revolution fucking dead because people think pragmatic compromises and alliances are stupid. Which again, ends with the revolution dying.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    It's less about pro-Ravhood and pro-Incarnation when the argument that dominates this entire vote has been attacks on Elevation & defense of Elevation. If anything, constant attacks on Elevation has been the initiator of the circular firing squad you accused Anchises of.

    Edit: Disclosure; I would have approval voted for Incarnation & Elevation and would've been happy if either won. After going through this whole argument? Not anymore!
     
    Last edited:
    Regency said:
    It's less about pro-Ravhood and pro-Incarnation when the argument that dominates this entire vote has been attacks on Elevation & defense of Elevation. If anything, constant attacks on Elevation has been the initiator of the circular firing squad you accused Anchises of.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I'm not the one calling people undemocratic, I'm making a warning about the dangers we'd have to watch out for. That is not attacking anyone, which is what was done. That is debating the pros and cons of an option.

    You can argue that Incarnation just creates a caste of reincarnating elites, that's fine. You can argue that Ravhood doesnt go enough in its democratic appeal, that's fine. Those are arguments of the pros and cons.

    But then there's crossing the line which was done. How would you like it if I called Elevation voters fake revolutionaries who just want to have their pet God-Emperor? Its a gross attack and misleading in the extreme.
     
    agumentic said:
    I also have problems with the theology of it. Popular support elevates someone by confirming that they were always a prophet, but actually it doesn't, because if they lose it, that means retroactively they weren't a prophet and the precious confirmation didn't count? Seems too flimsy for such a serious thing as divine connection to me, unless I misunderstood it.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I don't really support Elevation, but this isn't all that different from many historical beliefs, including the divine right of kings in Europe and the Byzantine Empire's understanding of divine rule, or the khwarrah (sovereignty/light of God) in Iran. A bit differently of course, since usually those weren't elected, but the logic that the person you deposed as a tyrant had not really had God's blessing to rule all along is not that flimsy. In the Byzantine Empire especially, you had a kind of weird thing where the Emperor was at once a kind of almost divine, saintly being closer to God than a human, but yet one who could and should be deposed if he failed to keep his obligations to the politeia/res publica, and thus must simply not have had God's favour. Obviously, we're in the equivalent of the 19th century and kind of in the middle of a collapse of all these old norms and complex social contracts, but it's not entirely unlikely.
     
    DocMatoi said:
    the patriarchate is ALREADY mob-backed rule
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I mean not really, the Sanhedron Elders still have their own power bases and the Patriarch still has the White-Gold behind him. And the institutions are still fairly intact. You are confusing "has popular support right now" to the kind of mob rule I am thinking off IE Maoist China, and Mao riding the Mob to wack the entire party.
     
    Last edited:
    Chehrazad said:
    I don't really support Elevation, but this isn't all that different from many historical beliefs, including the divine right of kings in Europe and the Byzantine Empire's understanding of divine rule, or the khwarrah (sovereignty/light of God) in Iran. A bit differently of course, since usually those weren't elected, but the logic that the person you deposed as a tyrant had not really had God's blessing to rule all along is not that flimsy. In the Byzantine Empire especially, you had a kind of weird thing where the Emperor was at once a kind of almost divine, saintly being closer to God than a human, but yet one who could and should be deposed if he failed to keep his obligations to the politeia/res publica, and thus must simply not have had God's favour. Obviously, we're in the equivalent of the 19th century and kind of in the middle of a collapse of all these old norms and complex social contracts, but it's not entirely unlikely.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    oh okay its the mandate of heaven
    If you lose, well you lost the mandate of heaven
     
    I will not have discussions of firing squads in this thread save if it is matter of an in-story execution. I ask again that the temperature cools and people do not overly assign totalistic values to one option.

    Prophecies are based on certain covenants and understandings. A prophet who strays too far from the word of God may simply lose their channel of prophecy as punishment. Prophecy is not a superpower irrevocable, and prophets may err.
     
    Deadly Snark said:
    And its not anti-anything to warn about the potential dangers of divinely sanctioning what could potentially turn into Mob-backed rule, figuring out how to avoid that and instilling a democratic society that can vote and hold leaders to account while avoiding the dangers of mob mentality as much as possible is literally the defining internal struggle of any democratic and liberation and revolutionary movements.

    "Know yourself and you will win every battle"
    Pretend the problems and dangers dont exist and good luck I guess.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Yeah I'm sure Marx would agree with you about the dangers of mob rule lmao. Like at a certain point the pragmatism preserves the revolution argument loses traction when you constantly vote for non-revolutionary positions.

    Like use less anti-democratic arguments if you don't want people to point out the obvious. Hard to read fearmongering about "mob rule" any other way.
     
    Last edited:
    Deadly Snark said:
    Yeah again I'm talking about an end state like Maoist China. 30th day of Tislev was a mass political revolution. They are different.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    "Communist China did not have a mass political revolution"
    we are literally an armed mob of proles and peasants that backs the current ruling party
    handwringing about mob rule is absurd when we are, in fact, the mob
     
    Last edited:
    agumentic said:
    Democracy as it is already has problems with popular demagogues creating political movements that are essentially cults of personality that support the leader no matter their actions, I really rather not create a doctrine that emphasizes and legitimizes that aspect by confirming that yes, your support means your leader has connection to God and can hardly stumble.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    ...this is literally already what every theocratic leader of states in the Kingdom of God, including the Patriarchs of the Kingdom of God, implements. Except you know, with aristocracy or oligarchy.

    And all options except for Disavowal have "gaps" for this specter of demagogery you fearmonger Elevation solely for. Ravhood already allows for figures such as Pasan Ghadi to wield great influence that could easily turn into opportunistic demagogues (especially among ongoing revolutionary conditions), the way Incarnation could be implemented either would be done similarly to Elevation theocratic democracy in practice (in which case it meets your fear of democratic demagogery) or a repeat of Patriarchal dysfunction - Yuhwa Edition, Prophecy is straightforwardly the same model Amalgast & his predecessors rose (and not necessarily to state-ruling power! Rip Tang Goo & Amalgast are 2 out of 4/5).
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top