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Kingdom Come: Deliverance

Magic_Pal said:
But this is how things were at that time. Knights in shining armor when invading were raping and pillaging left and right. A mentality that if you are not from my country, then you are not my friend was very strong. And yes at that time "alpha" males were like that and they were at the top. This is just how things were. Even now Czech is mostly white. So back then I'm willing to bet that there were less than 500 black people there. I'm just angry that some people are so willing to silence everyone that have a different opinion.


Well from games that are out right now I think that KC: D is the most realistic one. And can someone point to me when main developer is showing to be racist? From what I have read, the only thing that he did was defending his game for not having black characters and supporting gamergate with is not racist.
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lmao this game has literal magical potions that let you see in the dark and heal your wounds in it. The idea that it is "historically accurate" in any way except at the most basic aesthetic level is laughable. I mean, one of the most popular patron saints in Germany at the time was Saint Maurice, who was depicted as an African man in armor.

For me it's not so much that oh, it was unlikely for a black knight to be wandering Bohemia at the time so much as that it's some fantastical nonsense game with events that are just as likely happening throughout it's story and having the focused lack of interest in other stories and diverse viewpoints being touted as" historically accurate" when it's really just laziness, lack of knowledge, and outright bigotry that stops people from actually doing some fucking research. Does KCD include Jewish characters? What about Mongol/central Asian characters who aren't just slavering orcs there for you to stab to death in defense of Europe?

There are historically accurate ways to include minorities in your story that isn't defaulting to "lol stupid SJWs want a black man in Bohemia" but the studio doesn't even seem to have done that.
 
De3ta said:
Ohhohohohgoooofuckyourself we are doing this you picked the wrong time to fuckin test me pal.



When was the last time you open an actual history book and not some d-list Tolkien rip off that couldn't stop suckling the cock of European centrism and "whiteness" even if it had no lips? When has history ever been as black and white as "evil rapist foreigners are here to invade our white holy land" Jesus Christ what in the hell kind of nationalist right wing garbage have you been shoveling into your intellectual filler.

"Alpha" theory is both about wolves, not humans, and even proven wrong by the fucking guy who coined the term. Not to mention it was about wolves in captivity.

And no, the Czech republic isn't mostly "white" because race is fuckin nonsenseical bullshit made up so colonial slave owners could feel better owning people to work their land. Back last time reactionaries were more an vogue they wouldn't consider themselves, or the Czech people "white". They considered them slavs and sent them to fucking work camps. Racial theory is all bullshit used to justify this kind of shit.

And as for the developer being a fucking cockhead, read the god damn thread. I won't even touch the "most realistic game out" point because it's fucking horse shit.
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"evil rapist foreigners are here to invade our white holy land" Don't put that in quote because i didn't said that. I'm not telling you that, that was always the case but that was a mentality of most people.

"Czech republic isn't mostly "white" because race is fuckin nonsenseical bullshit made up so colonial slave owners could feel better owning people to work their land" I'm pretty sure that there are people of diffrent skin colors.

"Back last time reactionaries were more an vogue they wouldn't consider themselves, or the Czech people "white". They considered them slavs and sent them to fucking work camps. Racial theory is all bullshit used to justify this kind of shit." This I don't understand.

"Alpha" theory is both about wolves, not humans, and even proven wrong by the fucking guy who coined the term. Not to mention it was about wolves in captivity.

Still that term do aply do our society.

"And as for the developer being a fucking cockhead, read the god damn thread. I won't even touch the "most realistic game out" point because it's fucking horse shit."

And can someone point to me when main developer is showing to be racist? From what I have read, the only thing that he did was defending his game for not having black characters and supporting gamergate with is not racist.

Mila said:
lmao this game has literal magical potions that let you see in the dark and heal your wounds in it. The idea that it is "historically accurate" in any way except at the most basic aesthetic level is laughable. I mean, one of the most popular patron saints in Germany at the time was Saint Maurice, who was depicted as an African man in armor.

For me it's not so much that oh, it was unlikely for a black knight to be wandering Bohemia at the time so much as that it's some fantastical nonsense game with events that are just as likely happening throughout it's story and having the focused lack of interest in other stories and diverse viewpoints being touted as" historically accurate" when it's really just laziness, lack of knowledge, and outright bigotry that stops people from actually doing some fucking research. Does KCD include Jewish characters? What about Mongol/central Asian characters who aren't just slavering orcs there for you to stab to death in defense of Europe?

There are historically accurate ways to include minorities in your story that isn't defaulting to "lol stupid SJWs want a black man in Bohemia" but the studio doesn't even seem to have done that.
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This is one saint. I'm not saying that there were 0 black people in medieval europe but that they were rare. Would it be that much better if devs would put that one token black character in game?
 
Magic_Pal said:
This is one saint. I'm not saying that there were 0 black people in medieval europe but that they were rare. Would it be that much better if devs would put that one token black character in game?
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To quote myself, it doesn't matter that he didn't put any poc in the game period. Its shit, but its nothing new. But his reaction to people wanting it was to be a cunt who posts racist things.
 
I've mentioned it before, but on the subject of "realism" when it comes to the Middle Ages, I'd highly recommend The Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England by Ian Mortimer. If there's one thing I took away from this book, it's that, while the Middle Ages was certainly host to practices and customs we would find morally repugnant, it was not some dark-and-gritty crapsack world either, with knights "raping people left and right."

I point this out because any time some criticises the some piece of po-faced, dark-and-edgy fantasy schlock, whether it's ASOIAF or The Witcher or whatever, there will be, without question, someone screeching "But it's REALISTIC!" Now KC:D isn't exactly fantasy, but once again people are flogging the "realism" defence, and it's bloody ridiculous. As others have pointed out, this is a game with healing potions, so clearly the developers were willing to sacrficie "realism" for gameplay purposes.
 
From the second hand sources I've seen recounting the game's plot the story is less a historically accurate look at the life and times and complicated politics in medieval Bohemia, and more a story about the plucky, proud Czechs fighting the good fight against the ugly, foreign Cuman hordes and their scheming Hungarian/German masters, complete with the existence of Jews glossed over and a Depraved Homosexual villain. As part of a general trend of increasing Czech xenophobia.

Not exactly a documentary here, it's almost as if claims of realism are just the developers pretending that their ideologically driven conception of their country is "Da Trooth".

The Victorian said:
Now KC:D isn't exactly fantasy
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I mean, it kinda is. I maintain that even with the abscence of direct magic, a action-adventure romp about a plucky villager becoming a knight and fighting the orcs Cumans to defend his country and thwarting the machinations of foreign kings is fantasy regardless of whether it's set in our world or an invented one. Historical fantasy, sure. But fantasy. Because it's more of a gradient than a strict is/or divide. Especially since the actual events of KCD are made up and not a depiction of real events.
 
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From Reid McCarter, writing for Unwinnable:
Article:
Recreating 1403 Bohemia in order to tell a story of a virtuous Czech underdog fighting negative foreign influences says something vital about what Deliverance deems important to remember. Conversations surrounding the game have rightly centered on statements made by Warhorse Co-Founder and Creative Director Daniel Vávra that, in the name of historical "accuracy," it was important that the cast not include people of color. The suspicion, given the murkiness of the historical record regarding a rural stretch of medieval Central Bohemia's demographic make-up, is not just that it's possible that non-ethnically Czech people could have been present in a "historically accurate" game, but why excluding them is so important to Deliverance's take on history.

The only reason that seems to fit is that Deliverance selects from the past what best serves an exclusionary, xenophobic vision of Czech history – one that considers ethnic and linguistic minorities a historical detriment. Far from a removed question of what did or didn't happen centuries ago, Deliverance's vision of 15th Century Bohemia suggests a continuity of history that says the Czech Republic is for ethnically Czech citizens only.
 
Arthur Frayn said:
:Citation Needed:
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Statement by Daniel Vávra and Martin Klíma regarding racism/nazism accusations (Gamestar.de)

This is one. The second one was a video but I don't remember a title. If I will find it I will give it to you.

De3ta said:
To quote myself, it doesn't matter that he didn't put any poc in the game period. Its shit, but its nothing new. But his reaction to people wanting it was to be a cunt who posts racist things.
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I don't count making game with just one race as "Shit" Going by that logic, I should be angry that there were no white Indians in movies or white wakanda citizens in Black Panther. There are many games, movies and other means to entertain. Everyone will find something for him/herself. We don't need to make every game in certain ways so everyone can find it appealing.

One more thing that I don't understand is why people need a characters with same skin color as them. Czech is my country neighboor but I don't have a problem with absence of my people in this game. I can indentivi with black characters no problem. In GTA:SA I was really engaged in story and characters. I could find myself in many of them. In The Walking Dead Lee was a person that I have no problem indentivi with. For me, the character doesn't have to look like me to indentivi with him/her.

And one thing De3ta. I don't know if what I wrote was received as aggressive or something like that. If it was, I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention. I'm just trying to understand why it is such a big deal.
 
Magic_Pal said:
Czech is my country neighboor but I don't have a problem with absence of my people in this game.
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Neither do the developers of KCD have any problem with the absence of your people in their game. Given their treatment of Germans and Hungarians in the game that's probably for the best.

Because apparently plucky underdogs Czechs vs dirty schemer Germans and Hungarians and their Cuman dogs is historically accurate lol.
 
Reveen said:
Neither do the developers of KCD have any problem with the absence of your people in their game. Given their treatment of Germans and Hungarians in the game that's probably for the best.

Because apparently plucky underdogs Czechs vs dirty schemer Germans and Hungarians and their Cuman dogs is historically accurate lol.
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To be honest every country have bad people in itself. We do invaded czech a little in medieval times. So antagonist from my country wouldn't be so wrong.
 
Magic_Pal said:
To be honest every country have bad people in itself. We do invaded czech a little in medieval times. So antagonist from my country wouldn't be so wrong.
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Is this game supposed to be actually historically accurate or not? Because once you've broken real world history down to a story about the plucky good guys and the low down dirty bad guys, what makes black people beyond the pale?

Plus, y'know, the whole "there are literally no Jews in this game" thing.
 
Staff Notice - Don't insult your opponents
Magic_Pal said:
Statement by Daniel Vávra and Martin Klíma regarding racism/nazism accusations (Gamestar.de)

This is one. The second one was a video but I don't remember a title. If I will find it I will give it to you.



I don't count making game with just one race as "Shit" Going by that logic, I should be angry that there were no white Indians in movies or white wakanda citizens in Black Panther.
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You keep saying this while ignoring the context of *a fucking ocean* and *intentional isolationism with magic rock technology*, all the while making yourself look like a daft cunt!

Like you realize the geography of the region right? How trade works? It's not that absurd for non-white people to be in the area. Not live there, but to be around. Fuckin doesn't even have to be a black person you could have some Arab traders in the area as NPCs. Like its not hard in your "historical" fiction game with magic potions are generic "My family died and i'm got a destiny" story. Like I don't hate you, personally. It's just your arguments are lazy and easily disputed.
 
Magic_Pal said:
Statement by Daniel Vávra and Martin Klíma regarding racism/nazism accusations (Gamestar.de)

This is one. The second one was a video but I don't remember a title. If I will find it I will give it to you.
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Just because he says he supports GamerGate and freedom of speech doesn't change the fact that GamerGate was a reactionary movement driven by sexism, racism, and all around shittiness. Someone insisting that they joined the Nazis because of their strong anti-communist bent doesn't change the fact that they joined the Nazis.
 
De3ta said:
You keep saying this while ignoring the context of *a fucking ocean* and *intentional isolationism with magic rock technology*, all the while making yourself look like a daft cunt!

Like you realize the geography of the region right? How trade works? It's not that absurd for non-white people to be in the area. Not live there, but to be around. Fuckin doesn't even have to be a black person you could have some Arab traders in the area as NPCs. Like its not hard in your "historical" fiction game with magic potions are generic "My family died and i'm got a destiny" story. Like I don't hate you, personally. It's just your arguments are lazy and easily disputed.
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In indian case well you could say that vikings do traveled to north america before columb. So they could be a white indian. But that aside. I don't get why people need poc characters in this game. And I don't understand why that one thing is a reason to shame the whole game.

Here I will quote myself
"I don't count making game with just one race as "Shit" Going by that logic, I should be angry that there were no white Indians in movies or white wakanda citizens in Black Panther. There are many games, movies and other means to entertain. Everyone will find something for him/herself. We don't need to make every game in certain ways so everyone can find it appealing.

One more thing that I don't understand is why people need a characters with same skin color as them. Czech is my country neighboor but I don't have a problem with absence of my people in this game. I can indentivi with black characters no problem. In GTA:SA I was really engaged in story and characters. I could find myself in many of them. In The Walking Dead Lee was a person that I have no problem indentivi with. For me, the character doesn't have to look like me to indentivi with him/her.

And one thing De3ta. I don't know if what I wrote was received as aggressive or something like that. If it was, I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention. I'm just trying to understand why it is such a big deal."

Arthur Frayn said:
Just because he says he supports GamerGate and freedom of speech doesn't change the fact that GamerGate was a reactionary movement driven by sexism, racism, and all around shittiness. Someone insisting that they joined the Nazis because of their strong anti-communist bent doesn't change the fact that they joined the Nazis.
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What? From what I saw that movement was about journalism ethics. That was the main reason for that hashtag.
 
Magic_Pal said:
In indian case well you could say that vikings do traveled to north america before columb. So they could be a white indian. But that aside. I don't get why people need poc characters in this game. And I don't understand why that one thing is a reason to shame the whole game.

Here I will quote myself
"I don't count making game with just one race as "Shit" Going by that logic, I should be angry that there were no white Indians in movies or white wakanda citizens in Black Panther. There are many games, movies and other means to entertain. Everyone will find something for him/herself. We don't need to make every game in certain ways so everyone can find it appealing.

One more thing that I don't understand is why people need a characters with same skin color as them. Czech is my country neighboor but I don't have a problem with absence of my people in this game. I can indentivi with black characters no problem. In GTA:SA I was really engaged in story and characters. I could find myself in many of them. In The Walking Dead Lee was a person that I have no problem indentivi with. For me, the character doesn't have to look like me to indentivi with him/her.

And one thing De3ta. I don't know if what I wrote was received as aggressive or something like that. If it was, I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention. I'm just trying to understand why it is such a big deal."
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It's only a big deal because A, they keep touting historical accuracy as a bludgeon to be wrong about actual historical accuracy. They don't really care about accuracy, only what they consider accurate evidence be damned. B: The game is pretty shit besides that when it comes to its story. C: If you're going to repeat a post you already made in this thread, use the actual quote feature. I only did it the way I did because it was refering to a post I made elsewhere.

If I had to guess, you're white. As someone also white I can't rightly say I represent the issues people have with representation in media. I can tell you that the reason you don't understand the need for having someone of your skin color is probably because in the majority of the media you consume the protagonists have been white guys. People want to see figures they can relate to, and having the same generic no personality projection protagonist in the majority of your media can be boring as shit. Even white dudes complain about white dude protagonists being generic as fuck imagine being a black girl and only rarely seeing people you can relate to based on that. Everyone else has had to get used to not seeing themselves in the protagonists on that level.

This is not to say you need to be the same race or gender to relate to a character, but it is an aspect of it that a lot of people don't realize. People wanna see people that are like them in their stories, and their selections have been rather limited in the past.

As for the angle of historical representation...well it'd be pretty nice, certainly would rather they show up as real people in a historical fiction than as a generic amalgam of peoples most fantasy does them as.
 
De3ta said:
If I had to guess, you're white. As someone also white I can't rightly say I represent the issues people have with representation in media. I can tell you that the reason you don't understand the need for having someone of your skin color is probably because in the majority of the media you consume the protagonists have been white guys. People want to see figures they can relate to, and having the same generic no personality projection protagonist in the majority of your media can be boring as shit. Even white dudes complain about white dude protagonists being generic as fuck imagine being a black girl and only rarely seeing people you can relate to based on that. Everyone else has had to get used to not seeing themselves in the protagonists on that level.
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Well, I don't agree that skin color is the major thing in identifying with a character. Nationality, belief system and morals are in my opinion more important. You can have a square jaw white American hero, but some white people from Europe would not identify with that hero.

I do like the story in the game. It is generic but at this point every story we will made would be a remix of something that someone already created. Some parts are more used than others but at this point every single part was already used at least twice.
 
Magic_Pal said:
Well, I don't agree that skin color is the major thing in identifying with a character. Nationality, belief system and morals are in my opinion more important. You can have a square jaw white American hero, but some white people from Europe would not identify with that hero.

I do like the story in the game. It is generic but at this point every story we will made would be a remix of something that someone already created. Some parts are more used than others but at this point every single part was already used at least twice.
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Wow its almost like not all people are the same and people wanna see characters that relate to them in all aspects, and race is only one in a series of many things that I simplified for the sake of brevity.

its almost intentional or something. Like people choose their words for a specific message and you can glem things about their intentions from that like, say, making all foreigners evil rapists and making a very nationalist tone in your game.

OR SOMETHING.
 
@always_confused yeah the director is a major fucking asshole, and alt-righters have been rallying around the game. That being said, if you enjoy the game, enjoy the game. Watching ChristopherOdd play it, it's by all accounts a fine game if buggy with questionable design decisions (what's so different from drinking a potion or sleeping in a game to save anyway, tis silly video game logic). Don't let asshats ruin a good experience made by hardworking people even if the director is an asshole.

Magic_Pal said:
"Alpha" theory is both about wolves, not humans, and even proven wrong by the fucking guy who coined the term. Not to mention it was about wolves in captivity.

Still that term do aply do our society.
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No it fucking doesn't.

 
Hykal94 said:
@always_confused yeah the director is a major fucking asshole, and alt-righters have been rallying around the game. That being said, if you enjoy the game, enjoy the game. Watching ChristopherOdd play it, it's by all accounts a fine game if buggy with questionable design decisions (what's so different from drinking a potion or sleeping in a game to save anyway, tis silly video game logic). Don't let asshats ruin a good experience made by hardworking people even if the director is an asshole.



No it fucking doesn't.

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I forgot he doesn't use the quote feature so when I read your quote of his I got super fucking confused for a second there.
 
 
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