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Kingdom Come: Deliverance

Bohemia was not friendly to Jews in the 1300s, with a big massacre occurring in Prague in 1389. At the time of the game the situation doesn't seem to have been as dire, with kings extending some protections at times. The tension between the edicts of kings and the petty nobility would actually be quite interesting to have the player navigate, and it would be great to put the spotlight on medieval Jews, who seem pretty underrepresented in general.
 
So is anyone familiar with any examples of a random blacksmith's son, or someone of equivalent station, becoming a Man-at-Arms in the HRE?
 
Ritterin Sophia said:
So is anyone familiar with any examples of a random blacksmith's son, or someone of equivalent station, becoming a Man-at-Arms in the HRE?
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It's actually one of the things I don't have a problem with because it's decently explained by the following spoiler;

Henry is Sir Radzig's son, and hence gets a lot more leeway.

That and I'm not familiar with the status of Guilds in Bohemia at the time. His father is called a Master Swordsmith a couple of times - would being the son of someone like that be enough to be a man-at-arms? A prosperous guildsmans son could probably have done it in some places at the time, but Bohemia isn't somewhere I know much about at this time in general.
 
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Ritterin Sophia said:
So is anyone familiar with any examples of a random blacksmith's son, or someone of equivalent station, becoming a Man-at-Arms in the HRE?
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Non-noble Man-At-Arms, sure, though that is a very ill-defined term. Becoming a "knight"/noble after that - far less likely though I believe I remember a few cases of it happening in the Hundred Years War. Though even then knight/noble are very wide terms, especially in regards of the HRE.
 
Yes, isn't a man-at-arms just any armed person on permanent retainer? Like household guards, castle garrisons, etc? Sure, any free (i.e. non-serf) person could do that. Being allowed to wield weapons was one of the major definition marks of a freeman as opposed to a serf, after all.

But of course all commanding positions would go to nobles.
 
Ritterin Sophia said:
So is anyone familiar with any examples of a random blacksmith's son, or someone of equivalent station, becoming a Man-at-Arms in the HRE?
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I don't know about a formal Man-at-Arms, but that's just about the right social class to become a contract soldier during that era. It would be hard to become a proper knight and nobleman, but a few good looting opportunities as a foot soldier could allow a blacksmith's son to become a plate armored professional.
 
Susano said:
Yes, isn't a man-at-arms just any armed person on permanent retainer? Like household guards, castle garrisons, etc? Sure, any free (i.e. non-serf) person could do that. Being allowed to wield weapons was one of the major definition marks of a freeman as opposed to a serf, after all.

But of course all commanding positions would go to nobles.
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"Man-At-Arms" meant a heavily armoured cavalry/mounted infantry soldier, including but not exclusive to the knightly/gentry class.
 
So I've been watching a bunch of the cutscene footage for this thing when I had nothing better to do and... uh...

I kinda don't buy it? Like as a representation of the time period? I know that it's probably really well researched in a lot of respects and I'm not exactly well versed in the subject, but that doesn't change my overwhelming feeling that it's basically a video game version of a Ye Olde Ren Faire. Everything I see gives me that vibe, the costumes, how people look and talk, the HEMA everywhere, the really boring music that sounds like it's straight out of an older movie about the middle ages.

A lot of it is probably due to the fact we don't actually know enough about the period to know definitely what it would be like to walk around in it. In my opinion trying for a realistic as possible approach to representing a subject with as few stylistic concessions as possible tends to result in something that may be 'accurate' but also feels kinda devoid of personality. Compare this to Witcher 3, which probably isn't accurate at all but they go far out of their way to make things feel detailed, and alive and thus more believable than something with actual research behind it.

Maybe it's also due to the ideological framing that's preeeetty omnipresent. There isn't that much outright Nazi stuff, but there is a ton of this implicit bias towards the social order baked into the setting. Most of the Bohemian lords that Henry hangs with are presented as cool, reasonable guys, most of the people of the lower classes tend to be perfectly fine with the ways things are and those that don't fall neatly into the status quo are lazy people, asshole criminals, or idiots. There's this one bunch of side quests about Henry's shithead friends from Skalitz getting into crimes that really reminded me of the comic book Mr. A in how the justifications by the characters for those crimes are blatantly flimsy.

When the game does end up tackling a subject that brushes up against the inequities and societal problems of the time period it's treated as a personal tragedy of Henry to deal with, instead of being framed as a problem caused by the society the characters live in.

I can see immediately why they didn't want Jews in the game (aside from the possibility that they hate Jews), because that would either undermine the cozy sanitation they have going, or it would blow the pretensions to historical accuracy wide the fuck open.
 
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Reveen said:
I kinda don't buy it? Like as a representation of the time period? I know that it's probably really well researched in a lot of respects and I'm not exactly well versed in the subject, but that doesn't change my overwhelming feeling that it's basically a video game version of a Ye Olde Ren Faire. Everything I see gives me that vibe, the costumes, how people look and talk, the HEMA everywhere, the really boring music that sounds like it's straight out of an older movie about the middle ages.
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Yeah fyi it is actually pretty good but also renfairsque in the clothing as it's stuff common from around the time period not just the time period. The music is also again, pretty good. I get where you're coming from but the above is actually one of the things I liked as a historian.

And again, that map illustration. Hnnng. It's gorgeous.
 
Old Spice Guy said:
Yeah fyi it is actually pretty good but also renfairsque in the clothing as it's stuff common from around the time period not just the time period. The music is also again, pretty good. I get where you're coming from but the above is actually one of the things I liked as a historian.

And again, that map illustration. Hnnng. It's gorgeous.
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It is a good map. It reminds me of modded Skyrim maps or more accurately the Oblivion/Morrowind maps. Medieval maps were freaking weird.

So, why exactly does Sir Hans wear his shirt while being in the bath?
 
SteelRaptor said:


SABATON PLZ NO :(

They don't deserve you.
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Okay, I forgot that I wanted to bitch about this for, like, weeks. First of all, Sabaton covering this just kinda doesn't fit? I don't think Joakim Broaden's vocals work for the operatic Manowar sound. But more importantly the themes don't fit at all.

The lyrics to the song (and a lot of Manowar songs) are all about individual will and waiting for already existing kingdoms to fall for individuals to get their due.

See the white light, the light within
Be your own disciple
Fan the sparks of will
For all of us waiting
Our kingdom will come
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Which is the polar opposite of the game's ideological bias which is all about working within the already existing kingdom and succeeding entirely because you're privileged within the system. Henry isn't a character who succeeds because of his own strength of will and conviction, he's a character who succeeds because he shuts up and does what his superiors tell him until he finds out his daddy was rich all along thus legitimizing his higher place in society.

I mean, okay, fine. It's a medieval game, and medieval stuff is vaguely associated with metal, and nerds like metal, and white nationalists like metal. And Manowar is the stupidest metal you can find and nerds and white nationalists are really stupid.... but you can atleast make sure the thematics fit.

Hykal94 said:
So, why exactly does Sir Hans wear his shirt while being in the bath?
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Well, Henry gets in the bath with him. And that would be gay unless they're both wearing shirts for no good reason.

Which is kind of a pretty obvious example of ideology getting in the way of realism. Guys being naked within a mile of eachother is gay, but the ye olden days had a lot of public bathing. Uh, oh. Better cover up! Don't want our realism to get too gay!
 
Ritterin Sophia said:
So is anyone familiar with any examples of a random blacksmith's son, or someone of equivalent station, becoming a Man-at-Arms in the HRE?
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"...in the HRE" is a bit specific, but there is an account of a knight who came from common origins in Froissart.
The governor of the town there was a knight called Sir Robert Salle. He was no nobleman, yet he had the grace and skill, and the reputation of being an astute and valiant man-at-arms, and for his courage king Edward had made him a knight, and his physique made him the handsomest and strongest man in all England. Lister and his band determined that they would bring this knight with them and make him their commander-in-chief, so that they would be all the more dreaded and beloved. So they sent a message to him that he should come and speak with them in the fields or they would attack the city and burn it.

The knight realised that it would be better if he went to talk to them than for them to commit such an atrocity, so he mounted his horse and went out of the town alone to come and speak with them. When they caught sight of him, they bade him welcome and treated him with great honour, requesting that he dismount from his horse in order to talk with them. He did dismount, and as such made a grave mistake. Once dismounted they surrounded him and began to entreat him most courteously, saying, "Robert, you are a knight and a man who commands great respect and renown in this country, a courageous man, and while you may be all these things, we know you very well. You are no gentleman, but the son of a mason, a common man just like us. Join us and you will be our master, and we shall make you so great a lord that a quarter of England will be under your command."

When the knight heard what they had to say he was strongly opposed, for he would never have agreed to such a thing. He responded, glaring at them furiously, "Be gone you rogues, false and wicked traitors that you are! Do you ask me to renounce my natural lord for such a rabble as you and bring dishonour on myself? I would rather see you all hanged, which you will be, for there can be no other end for you." With that he thought to mount his horse, but he missed the stirrup and the horse took fright. Then they fell on him, shouting, "Death to him!" When he heard those words he let his horse go, drew the fine, long Bordeaux sword he was carrying and began to skirmish and open up a space around him.

It was a great spectacle to behold and none dared approach him. Some of them advanced, but with each blow he rained down on them he cut off a foot or a head, an arm or a leg. There were none so brave as to be unafraid of him, and there Sir Robert performed so many marvellous feats of arms, but there were over forty thousand of those scoundrels. They threw and launched objects at him and he was completely disarmed. In truth, if he had been made of iron or steel, he would still have had to remain there, yet he killed twelve of them outright, not counting those whom he maimed and wounded. Finally he was brought to the ground; his legs and arms were cut off and they dismembered him a piece at a time. That was the end of Robert Salle, which was a great pity, and all the knights and squires in England were deeply enraged when they heard the news.



I linked way more of the writing than necessary because it is pretty awesome that his response was pure 'over my dead body' then he started making it over their dead bodies.
 
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Reveen said:
Well, Henry gets in the bath with him. And that would be gay unless they're both wearing shirts for no good reason.

Which is kind of a pretty obvious example of ideology getting in the way of realism. Guys being naked within a mile of eachother is gay, but the ye olden days had a lot of public bathing. Uh, oh. Better cover up! Don't want our realism to get too gay!
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Bathing clothed with some sort of bathing garb or dress (often linen) or just your underwear shirt was not uncommon in the middle ages (and generally in pre-modern times):

"Uglino da Montecatini wrote that at the Pisan resort of the Bagno a Acqua (circa 1400), "the women during the cure are decently robed and also many men are covered with delicate and light garments." Illustrations show that even in private baths, both men and women tended to wear head-coverings for health reasons, and women wear all their jewels"

"Bath-rooms in monasteries often had separate compartments for individual bathers, who were generally expected to bathe in cold water, sometimes wearing some kind of undershift, and/or no more than once a week. This was to avoid the sensual pleasures of bathing that the Fathers of the Church worried about. "

Source: A Short History of Bathing before 1601

Don't be prejudiced yourself, don't assume everything a bigot does is because of prejudice.
 
xa na xa said:
"Bath-rooms in monasteries often had separate compartments for individual bathers, who were generally expected to bathe in cold water, sometimes wearing some kind of undershift, and/or no more than once a week. This was to avoid the sensual pleasures of bathing that the Fathers of the Church worried about."
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Those medieval guys really weren't so dumb after all. Making people shower in cold water to stop them from jerking it in the stalls is something that never occurred to me before.
 
The Laurent said:
Boo this man, boo him!:V

(One of those "Social Historians" you might have heard of.)
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Social history is so 1970s, all the cool kids are doing cultural history! :p

Anyway, disappointed to hear about both the gameplay problems and the vaunted 'historical accuracy' of the game being not all that there. No Jews and almost no Germans in late medieval Bohemia? Seriously?

I've also heard the romance options are pretty half-baked. Not being able to marry nobles makes sense, but not being able to marry other commoners after romance is disappointing.
 
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Prince Ire said:
Social history is so 1970s, all the cool kids are doing cultural history! :p

Anyway, disappointed to hear about both the gameplay problems and the vaunted 'historical accuracy' of the game being not all that there. No Jews and almost no Germans in late medieval Bohemia? Seriously?

I've also heard the romance options are pretty half-baked. Not being able to marry nobles makes sense, but not being able to marry other commoners after romance is disappointing.
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My Professor for the Early American Colloquium is a cultural historian, I think? He actually did a book on Alcoholic Insanity, so this sorta medical-cultural-dash-of-social sort of book?

His unreleased book is about the first superhero... back in the 19th century? :V
 
I finally gave this game a try because of the sale going on, and I found everything except the combat really nice. As soon as even minor combat became a thing, though, the auto lock-on system was so infuriating that I uninstalled and requested a refund within the first 90 minutes. So, consider that my review, I guess.
 
Hey everyone, Henry's come to see us nearly six years later with a trailer for KCD:2!


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMZFM6JC47Q

Armor looks better, Gonnes, Crossbows, an actual city, GONNES! Hopefully this will look more like actual medieval history with some diversity, but well I'll start out doubtful and am thus unlikely to be disappointed. I'm willing to put up with a lot to layer armor and waste people with a stupid matchlock gonne on a stick (GONNES!) but still.

Also again GONNES!
 
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While i enjoyed the gameplay of original, i have zero interest in buying this unless i somehow learn that the dev has pulled their head out of their ass and stopped being racist dick.
 
On a more serious note yes, that will matter in particular here. It's supposed to be set in and around Kuttenburg. There was a Jewish community there circa 1410 iirc and definitely one in Kolin which is close enough to maybe be in game. Like I said, I'm not holding out much hope there though. Even gonnes (GONNES!) are probably not going to be enough for me to buy this despite being as you may be able to tell, perhaps my favorite non-Chairman Meow thing.

Hmmm, I wonder if Chairman Meow would like a Gonne...
 
I'm playing this now as I have to sit and wait for stupid admin this morning (all opinions highly provisional after a couple of hours).

The good:
There are Roma and a Jew and they seem to be treated fairly well and good. More than I was expecting! (Whether or not this continues is very much up in the air)
The clothes are better. The portrayal of the Cumans is also better.
It's not a glitchy bugridden mess.
THERE ARE CATS! I HAVE SEEN AT LEAST 3! CATS! MEOW!
I'm pretty sure there are some m/m romance options. Not my thing, but good it is available.

The bad:
Holy shit that start sequence is bad. Really bad. They learned nothing about how to treat women in the prologue, that's for sure! (It's bad)
Archery is actually worse imo.
YOU CANNOT PET THE CATS!

Horseshoes are a special kind of suck.
 
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I'm a few hours into the game (though still very early in the story I presume) and so far its mostly the same as its predecessor, including the disregard for convience and quality of life features. That said, I'm still enjoying it a lot.
However the combat system isn't built for fighting wolves, who for some reason have been a prominent enemy in my playtime so far.
 
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