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Jace911 "Reviews" Puella Magi Madoka Magica

Oh, right. I need another ominous status update...

Gentlemen, tempering complete. The Subject will now be introduced to the Crucible. Where We're going, We don't need Eyes to see.
 
Teen Spirit said:
I'm sorry but then that's close enough to a lie that difference is moot,at the very least it is trickery, there's no way in hell he doesn't realize he's tricking Kyoko. Which makes his "We don't understand trickery" line an outright lie. Episode ten has some stuff that makes me strongly believe he's outright lied but that's for another day.
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Again, you're projecting things on him. In a society of perfect selfish rational actors, his behavior would be perfectly normal. He doesn't have that concept because you don't surrender information for no reason when it would hurt your position. That's not trickery, that's simply being rational. If the girls were rational actors they would keep questioning him until they fully hammered out all the details.

That is to say, this statement is him putting the onus of getting information on his victims. He doesn't understand 'tricked' from a moral standpoint. 'He' isn't tricking them, they aren't asking enough questions.
 
Teen Spirit said:
I'm sorry but then that's close enough to a lie that difference is moot,at the very least it is trickery, there's no way in hell he doesn't realize he's tricking Kyoko. Which makes his "We don't understand trickery" line an outright lie. Episode ten has some stuff that makes me strongly believe he's outright lied but that's for another day.
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It's ambiguous wording. If I gave you Schrodinger's equation right now, you would be able to calculate the evolution of the universe in theory - but that doesn't mean you understand the universe, or for that matter Schrodinger's equation.

In the same way, Kyubey is capable of tricking people, but doesn't understand the human concept of "trickery" - from his point of view, it's something more like "information control" or "biased discussion". In much the same way as he can predict humans without grokking emotions.
 
Insufficient Dakka said:
Are you sure this is in the right thread?
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Yes. I've been doing it for the whole thread, every time Jace hits a really intense episode.

Episode 1:

Number3124 said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Enjoy the ride. You've seen nothing yet.
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Episode 7:

Number3124 said:
*watching intensifies*

Gentlemen. The Subject has reached the borderline.
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Episode 8:

Number3124 said:
*watching further intensifies*

Gentlemen. The Subject has made Contact. Begin Tempering.

(cookie to whoever gets it)
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I'm also still waiting for someone to get my references.
 
TheLastOne said:
Again, you're projecting things on him. In a society of perfect selfish rational actors, his behavior would be perfectly normal. He doesn't have that concept because you don't surrender information for no reason when it would hurt your position. That's not trickery, that's simply being rational. If the girls were rational actors they would keep questioning him until they fully hammered out all the details.

That is to say, this statement is him putting the onus of getting information on his victims. He doesn't understand 'tricked' from a moral standpoint. 'He' isn't tricking them, they aren't asking enough questions.
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That rests on the assumption that he's telling the truth when he claims "Oh we don't understand deception" - something which you'd have a job of work to justify, especially considering his lawyering around.
 
Captain Orsai said:
That rests on the assumption that he's telling the truth when he claims "Oh we don't understand deception" - something which you'd have a job of work to justify, especially considering his lawyering around.
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I think the strongest arguement was already made, to be honest.

linkhyrule5 said:
Um.

No he didn't.

He omitted. He implied. He said that magical girls have been known to do things thought impossible. He said that magic is not fully understood.

He never actually said he thought Kyouko could succeed.

Kyubey is very very good at lying with the truth. Because of this, and because from a narrative, Doylist point of view there's no point in establishing a character as being absolutely, perfectly truthful and then have him be a flat-out liar behind the scenes, it is overwhelmingly likely that Kyubey does not lie.

(Because of this, I generally assume that Kyubey really is doing what's best for the universe, and it happens to conflict with humanity's selfish interest.)
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People argue that Kyubey lies because as a liar his understandable, evil, and human.

Don't project humanity on him. I makes him less interesting.
 
I do like quite a few of the changes of the manga adaptation, but this episode's Kyubey is just a bit off. A bit much lol im tricking you.

Also, holy shit manga Kyubey's eyes are nightmarish.

 
Blake Hannon said:
You want to know something terrible?

The reapers and the incubators have more or less the same goals in wanting to preserve as much life as possible for as long as possible no matter the cost. If they were in the same universe, they would probably be besties.

In fact, its very likely that there would be millions of willing volunteers to become an incubator-reaper.
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Well I'd say in a way the Incubators are kind of worse than the Reapers. Can't explain because of movie spoilers.

Also the thing about Kyuubey lying is pretty simple. The incubators have a goal and will go about it following their own rules. Kyuubey did that successfully, but he isn't completely neutral. Kyuubey knew what would have happened and had every reason not to stop it. Informing the girls on anything that would impede the incubators would make no sense.

What Kyuubey did was a lot closer to straight up deception than he thinks. The thing is Kyuubey doesn't have to work that hard to allow things to fall to pieces correctly. A few suggestions hear and there easily gets the job done. Just remember not to say the wrong things and your energy sources might actually stay alive for too long. The Incubators are lucky and also kind of unlucky they are stuck dealing with emotional girls.
 
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TheLastOne said:
Don't project humanity on him. I makes him less interesting.
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While I agree with the sentiment, it's not needed, because Kyubey is quite capable of standing on the merits of his own actions. Kyubey cannot be accused of outright lying because he makes no false statements, even when doing so would be beneficial.
Can he even be called misleading when you reach an erroneous conclusion from his words, and don't bother to check your conclusion with him? And if you don't believe what he says about your conclusion, why did you believe his statements that led you to that conclusion?
In Kyouko's case, she never realized Kyubey never actually said restoring Sayaka was possible. She heard enough to hope, and didn't want to hear more that would extinguish that hope.

I'm not saying he isn't a villain. I consider him a villain. But simply saying, "he can lie" is as misleading to his ability to manipulate people as what he said to Kyouko here. Don't underestimate him like that!
 
It's rather interesting to think about what Kyubey actually does. He has no magic and can do nothing but kickstart the innate power the girls already have... and he uses a portion of the energy the girls release as part of their wish to turn the girls into Magical Girls with all that implies in-universe so he can harvest their energy. The wish-granting and the becoming-a-doomed-magical-girl elements are only connected because Kyubey wants them to be, because it's more efficient for him.

That's the truly fucked part of this. He could go around granting wishes, no strings attached, and take a portion of the energy generated to fight entropy. But the very fact that he himself has no magic ties directly into the fact he has no empathy, as so takes this much crueler path because the payout is bigger for him. That's what makes him villainous.

Also, remember what magic represents in Magical Girl shows, and you'll see how important it is that Kyubey has none of his own, and can only offer you your own personal potential. In effect, the only thing Kyubey does, the only thing he can do, is distort magic that was already there to hurt people, to change the meaning of magic for these girls so it becomes their downfall. Huh. How about that...
 
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I don't know about that. Sure, they have the potential - but without Kyubey, they would never be magical girls. I know you're making a symbolic point, but I feel like you're going too far with it.

Because I? I would take that deal. Soul Gem and Grief Seed and all. A high-risk life and a probably-early death, even the bit about going insane with grief for eternity, for a wish and magic? Deal. Those are things that I could work my whole life towards and may not ever achieve.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
I don't know about that. Sure, they have the potential - but without Kyubey, they would never be magical girls. I know you're making a symbolic point, but I feel like you're going too far with it.

Because I? I would take that deal. Soul Gem and Grief Seed and all. A high-risk life and a probably-early death, even the bit about going insane with grief for eternity, for a wish and magic? Deal. Those are things that I could work my whole life towards and may not ever achieve.
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The real magic from Kyubey's point of view is emotions themselves. Living a life for it's own merits, loving and hating and crying and dying and being. Having friends and lovers and growing up, learning and teaching, all that stuff. To Kyubey, those things are unimaginable, outside context concepts. They are magic. The Magical Girls give up personhood and have their magic twisted to this other purpose through the contract, have their emotions become a part of this mechanistic system that works by Kyubey's rules.

That's why Madoka's wish does what it does. It allows the Magical Girls, in that final moment of despair, to pull back and see the good they've done, how they've touched the lives of those around them in this moment that was previously marked by utter isolation and despondence.
 
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@Jace911 Once again reminding you to take the time to rewatch ep 1 one more time before watching ep 10. You only get one shot at this and it won't have the same impact if you watch ep 1 afterwards.
And remember the lyrics.
 
open_sketchbook said:
The real magic from Kyubey's point of view is emotions themselves. Living a life for it's own merits, loving and hating and crying and dying and being. Having friends and lovers and growing up, learning and teaching, all that stuff. To Kyubey, those things are unimaginable, outside context concepts. They are magic. The Magical Girls give up personhood and have their magic twisted to this other purpose through the contract, have their emotions become a part of this mechanistic system that works by Kyubey's rules.

That's why Madoka's wish does what it does. It allows the Magical Girls, in that final moment of despair, to pull back and see the good they've done, how they've touched the lives of those around them in this moment that was previously marked by utter isolation and despondence.
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See, that's all very nice and well from a metaphorical standpoint, but at the end of the day even the Incubators can't do what Homura does, never mind what the spoiler entails.

If the Incubators could use their own magic the universe would be saved by now. Magic is a really good deal on purely practical grounds, even without the Limited Wish that comes with it.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
See, that's all very nice and well from a metaphorical standpoint, but at the end of the day even the Incubators can't do what Homura does, never mind what the spoiler entails.

If the Incubators could use their own magic the universe would be saved by now. Magic is a really good deal on purely practical grounds, even without the Limited Wish that comes with it.
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The thing is that the universe isn't in danger, not in any sense that is meaningful. They are fighting entropy because they are these creatures of pure logic who have nothing else. If they had magic, they wouldn't be bothering, because they'd be living.
 
open_sketchbook said:
The thing is that the universe isn't in danger, not in any sense that is meaningful. They are fighting entropy because they are these creatures of pure logic who have nothing else. If they had magic, they wouldn't be bothering, because they'd be living.
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Er.

I would... disagree entirely? A lifespan of mere billions of years is tiny to any civilization that wants to actually use energy on a galactic scale; there are generally accepted arguments against the existence of FTL by the fact that stars still exist and have not been stockpiled as fusion sources.

Like "the universe will eventually die" is totally a priority whether or not you have art and love and whatnot.
 
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