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Itinerant: A Pilgrim Quest

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Muer'ci said:
I'm not sure how to respond, except that obey sounds like a bad idea, because it sets a precedent of us rolling over and doing whatever other party tells us to, without standing up for ourselves. If we permit this thing, what will the next demand be?
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It's standard procedure. We aren't seen as their equal, so, if we rise up and fail to impress them, we'll get smacked and presumably thrown overboard into a holy river known to be a place where the pious willingly drown themselves in.

These people know what lines can and cannot be crossed. This demand isn't that unreasonable all things considered, and when they do start demanding unreasonable things, we can refuse and no one can blame us for that.
 
[X] ...did not obey him, and stayed where you were.

No, we stay in the lighted area, where all of them would have to be complicit to do anything.
Not move into the dark where they can do anything and nobody would see.

This isn't about comfort. He's pretty much suggesting we go off to the dark, where anything that happens...well, who knows who did anything?
 
Muer'ci said:
I'm not sure how to respond, except that obey sounds like a bad idea, because it sets a precedent of us rolling over and doing whatever other party tells us to, without standing up for ourselves. If we permit this thing, what will the next demand be?
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Furthering my thoughts on this. "Don't give in, because then they'll keep taking more" is a much more modern advice, or advice for someone with actual power. It's decent advice to give a kid in the modern world, or someone with the strength to match whoever is messing with them, because in the first you can have your teacher or parents or friends or counselors or cops or whoever to help you not be victimized. In the second, impressing them with strength of arms could get you accepted as a good fit for the group (or stabbed). Here, though, we're not their equal, and we're not in a position of strength.

veekie said:
[X] ...did not obey him, and stayed where you were.

No, we stay in the lighted area, where all of them would have to be complicit to do anything.
Not move into the dark where they can do anything and nobody would see.

This isn't about comfort. He's pretty much suggesting we go off to the dark, where anything that happens...well, who knows who did anything?
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I don't agree, actually. Stay within the range of the fire, just not by it. Within shouting range, at least. Move back to the fire if he starts to follow. Don't make a stand when surrounded by people who might beat the hell out of you for making a stand.
 
veekie said:
No, we stay in the lighted area, where all of them would have to be complicit to do anything.
Not move into the dark where they can do anything and nobody would see.
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They try anything in the dark, and we'll shout and trash for help.

The fact that they need us to be in the dark in the first place if they want to do anything to us means that they all aren't actually willing to go with the act. If we make a ruckus, the others will come in rushing.
 
Fenrir555 said:
Furthering my thoughts on this. "Don't give in, because then they'll keep taking more" is a much more modern advice, or advice for someone with actual power.
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Historical note: one of the chapters of the first volumes of the famous History of the Private Life (which was the life's work of one Philppe Aries, even if he was only the spiritus movens behind the project, and not an actual writer, pardon the lack of French accentuation in the name) dealing with the social structure in the Frank society reads "The child's obsession: slave or prince". It is meant to showcase a peculiarity of that society's obsession with the social position seen as something different than hereditary title, and understood more as what you are in life. If you submit, you are a slave; therefore, slaves of that epoch were often people that we would think free at glance, such as craftsmen in courts. Cutting the hair of a free man - which were the show of his freedom and power - was an offence that had a penalty associated with it comparable to murder. This is something that the MC of the quest would understand, although being a woman, she would not be a subject of such laws (more an object of them, if anything). However, this bears repeating: freedom (and power associated with it, for a free man was one that could be called to ost, that is the military service to the king) was something that had to be expressed and shown, or else it could be lost. Conversely, submission too demanded a public act (such as putting your head in the hands of your lord, to signify that you are his); nothing of it could be left private or implied.
 
Gargulec said:
Historical note: one of the chapters of the first volumes of the famous History of the Private Life (which was the life's work of one Philppe Aries, even if he was only the spiritus movens behind the project, and not an actual writer, pardon the lack of French accentuation in the name) dealing with the social structure in the Frank society reads "The child's obsession: slave or prince". It is meant to showcase a peculiarity of that society's obsession with the social position seen as something different than hereditary title, and understood more as what you are in life. If you submit, you are a slave; therefore, slaves of that epoch were often people that we would think free at glance, such as craftsmen in courts. Cutting the hair of a free man - which were the show of his freedom and power - was an offence that had a penalty associated with it comparable to murder. This is something that the MC of the quest would understand, although being a woman, she would not be a subject of such laws (more an object of them, if anything). However, this bears repeating: freedom (and power associated with it, for a free man was one that could be called to ost, that is the military service to the king) was something that had to be expressed and shown, or else it could be lost. Conversely, submission too demanded a public act (such as putting your head in the hands of your lord, to signify that you are his); nothing of it could be left private or implied.
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...Ah. I stand corrected. Um, shit.

[x] ...did not obey him, and stayed where you were.
Changing my vote, then.
 
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However, please do not take that note above for an indication that others will automatically agree with you agreeing or refusing to act the way they think you are supposed to. Law and social status of that time was way too often enforced in painfully simple and rather violent manners.
 
Hannz said:
They try anything in the dark, and we'll shout and trash for help.

The fact that they need us to be in the dark in the first place if they want to do anything to us means that they all aren't actually willing to go with the act. If we make a ruckus, the others will come in rushing.
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It makes the level of confidence needed to try at all much lower. And such things come from what they perceive.

That they would not join in does not mean they would stop it, if they could turn a blind eye. Staying visible means they cannot. It's all or nothing.

And of course, considering where he put the spear, he's making a pretty clear statement of what he's expecting of submission. Imagined consent, if you would.
 
[x] ...did not obey him, and stayed where you were.

I don't believe there is no other place by the fire but ours. It's like sitting on the rails, with someone telling you to move over - it's not about the space you occupy.

I don't like the idea of doing everything others tell us to do. Sure, it's a test, and sure, I don't expect us to act like a top dog, but if we don't even try to protect what we have it will be taken from us.

Sorry this is awkwardly phrased, I'm on the phone and in a hurry, but I just don't see this challenge ending well if we just give up and give in.
 
veekie said:
It makes the level of confidence needed to try at all much lower. And such things come from what they perceive.

That they would not join in does not mean they would stop it, if they could turn a blind eye. Staying visible means they cannot. It's all or nothing.

And of course, considering where he put the spear, he's making a pretty clear statement of what he's expecting of submission. Imagined consent, if you would.
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All it takes is a gag or something and suddenly all others have to deal with is some muffled noises and scrapes in the dark. Hella easy to ignore, esp. if there's a funny story going on you can pay attention to instead.

E: we do not escalate by going for the weapon bc we're not a warrior, but we don't let this treatment slide either.
 
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Unsure if that's a QM hint to bandwagon the other way or not.

Personally, between physical pain and swallowing our pride, I'd rather do the latter, but maybe that's because I joked we wouldn't have any physical scars earlier in the thread and really, really would like to make good on that joke. :V

On one hand, these people already know that as a woman in this era, we have no freedom or power. Trying to prove otherwise is going to anger them and might cut our trip short because we're, from their perspective, being ungrateful.

On the other hand, refusing to do so might gain their respect but it's pretty much assured we'll get beaten up.
veekie said:
It makes the level of confidence needed to try at all much lower. And such things come from what they perceive.

That they would not join in does not mean they would stop it, if they could turn a blind eye. Staying visible means they cannot. It's all or nothing.

And of course, considering where he put the spear, he's making a pretty clear statement of what he's expecting of submission. Imagined consent, if you would.
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You make a good point. How about this?

[X] …returned the javelin, and moved away.

A clear rejection of the innuendo, but still fulfills the surface request.
 
Hannz said:
Unsure if that's a QM hint to bandwagon the other way or not.
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It absolutely is not; I was just trying to correct a misinterpretation that could weigh heavily on the vote. The matters of status, recognition and freedom are very tangled, so I hoped I would at least attempt to clarify a bit.

Hannz said:
[X] …returned the javelin, and moved away.
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This vote, if final, will be counted along with others "obeyed Cu" votes.
 
The request isn't just "move aside, I want your place" it's also "go sleep in the dark". If we're going for a write-in, maybe try something that addresses first part, but not the second. Otherwise it's functionally identical to "obey".

I still prefer sticking to our chosen place. We're not in the wrong here.
 
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Hannz said:
So the write-in has no functional difference between the other "Obey Cu" votes?
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Muer'ci has it mostly right here; the differences between this and the default option are minor enough to not affect the outcome to any significant degree.
(Run a quest, they said. It's all easy to figure out and manage, they said.)
 
Gargulec said:
Muer'ci has it mostly right here; the differences between this and the default option are minor enough to not affect the outcome to any significant degree.
(Run a quest, they said. It's all easy to figure out and manage, they said.)
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Apologies for being an idiot. It's my default setting, you see.

[X] ...did not obey him, and stayed where you were.
 
Hannz said:
Apologies for being an idiot. It's my default setting, you see.
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Please don't say things like that! This is just literally my first quest, so I am learning things on the go, including when I should clarify, when I should allow a write-in, when I shouldn't, so on, so on, so on. So if anyone here has done any wrong, it is me by not being clear enough.
 
[x] ...did not obey him, and stayed where you were.

What everyone else has said + being away from the camp in a witch-infested swamp is bad juju.
 
Okay, so thus far unanimously sitting still! But that is not why I am posting. I wanted to ask if I should do an extra update today, because I have a free evening and I may as well sneak in some extras before the university starts again Monday and I will have to slow down.

EDIT: To clarify, this is one of those Argh I Am New To Quests Question, seeking advice from the seasoned crowd.
 
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I honestly have difficulty saying 'no' to moar update, so... yes, please? If it's not too much trouble?
 
It seems like we are being shoulder-checked. Small wonder, really. We are an unknown variable on a social ladder - not a guard, not a sailor, and seemingly not a paying passenger (Reik is) - so people want to know what we are doing among them. If we were a guy, we'd likely get a similar initial treatment.

Now, if we were to part ways with these guys tomorrow, I'd probably be able to make an argument for keeping our head low and accepting a subservient position they expect from someone they do not consider their equal. The benefits of trying to go against it and establishing ourselves would hardly be worth the trouble or the risks. However, we've got about a month worth of travel alongside these guys, and it is far easier to plummet down the bottom of the hierarchy than it is to climb back up. If we are beaten into submission here, then it won't be a week before our livelihood and safety stop bein a concern.

If we were a guy, I'd probably reach for the spear. Skill and strength matter less than a certain ferocity and fighting spirit - and that gives one some respect and recognition regardless of the outcome. However, not only do we lack the ability to defend ourselves, but unlike a guy, we are not supposed to be taking arms. It is a challenge to them all, in a way, and one who throws it better have something to back it up. It's a high-risk unknown-rewards play, and I can only guess how they'll take it.

So that leaves our current approach as the 'safer' one, I guess. But we will have to find a rationale for why we deserve our place here, and soon.

[x] ...did not obey him, and stayed where you were.

Hm. One thing that sailors have in common is their weakness to superstition. The waters are unpredictable and treacherous, be it open seas or a 'mere' river. Omens are always treated more seriously by people in a dangerous line of work, and even though the river route is considered a safe one, the rumors attribute it to supernatural origins. Even though these guys don't give a damn about their own souls and hate preachers, they like running afoul of Lady Luck even less. We probably could use this to our benefit if we figure out how. We have the book full of exotic knowledge that most of them probably won't be able to read or interpret, so maybe we could become a seer or a fortune teller - or a charm against misfortune at the very least - for the duration of the journey...

...if we aren't sold off before we raise the subject, that is. :rolleyes: It is still a river that is blessed by the Saints they are traveling through, though, so I would expect some more hesitation and doubt before they do anything drastic.
 
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