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It Belongs to a Museum

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Dlan the Wizard said:
Also in later publications, such as 2nd Edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, there are ''Necromancers'' pre-dating Nagash, after he was established as a character and creator of Necromancy. For example, Koros the Elf Lich from 2nd Edition of WFRP book Karak Azgal, who became ''Necromancer'' during The War of the Beard.
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And therefore post-dating Nagash, who invented necromancy 350 years prior to the end of the War of the Beard?

Omegahugger said:
Slann Relic Priests aren't actually undead in any real sense, not even Lord Kroak. There's a reason why he went from quite possibly the greatest magic user the Warhammer world has seen to a dessicated husk that can only cast a single spell. Coincidentally the same one he was casting as he died.

It is more accurate to think of them as being so magical that even their inert bodies are using magic the way they used to.
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Not really. He has an explicit spirit form ("he can no longer communicate, but his spirit form can still interact with the material world"). Relic Priests are Slann who are powerful and stubborn enough to effectively haunt their own dead bodies.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
And therefore post-dating Nagash, who invented necromancy 350 years prior to the end of the War of the Beard?
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Huh. Really? Last time I checked, War of the Beard was way before Nagash. I must had misread the timeline. Nevermind then, Koros wasn't a good example but my overall point stands. There would be practitioners of magical traditions similar to Necromancy we are familiar with before Nagash but Nagash formalized everything into coherent teachings, added his own insight and was overall the loudest Necromancer and thus recognized as "The First Necromancer".
Omegahugger said:
Slann Relic Priests aren't actually undead in any real sense, not even Lord Kroak.
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All Slann of First Generation, and thus all Relic-Priests, are explicitly dead and hanging around their bodies as ghosts.
Over a thousand years had passed since those days, and there were no longer any Slann of the First Spawning to guide them - none had survived.
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Lizardmen 8th Edition Armybook, page 10.
In the wake of the defence of Itza, Lord Kroak's loyal Skink attendants lamented the death of their almighty master, whose body was scattered far and wide. Diligently, the Skinks collected every last scrap of that ravaged body and, with great reverence, the remains were swathed in resin-soaked wrappings. Thus was created the first Relic Priest, of which many more have been created. The Lizardmen have found the spirits of these departed Slann so powerful that they often linger near their former bodies.
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Lizardmen 8th Edition Armybook, page 10.
Lord Kroak made the most profound of sacrifices during the Great Catastrophe, but his indomitable spirit would not concede defeat and he became the first of the Relic Priests. Now, behind the enigmatic visage of his golden death mask, he can no longer communicate, but his spirit form can still interact with the material world. Some vestige of power resides in him still, a distant echo of former glory, yet strength enough to unleash destruction upon his enemies. At need, his shrivelled and lifeless husk is brought forth from Itza, and it has guided the Lizardmen to yet further victories.
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Lizardmen 8th Edition Armybook, page 52.

The idea that Relic-Priests aren't just dead or Slann in general can't die just like anything else is fanon that was invented because Lizardmen fans are sore losers who deep down know their faction sucks and cope by wanking them to high heaven of stupid VS debates and misunderstanding what was stated in the text.
 
Dlan the Wizard said:
There would be practitioners of magical traditions similar to Necromancy we are familiar with before Nagash but Nagash formalized everything into coherent teachings, added his own insight and was overall the loudest Necromancer and thus recognized as "The First Necromancer".
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I mean, that's a stance you can take, but outside of trying to somehow squeeze the original Drachenfels lore into being still kinda-sorta true if you squint, is there actually any reason to do so? Given that the only example you've presented so far apparently doesn't predate Nagash after all.
 
Dlan the Wizard said:
Huh. Really? Last time I checked, War of the Beard was way before Nagash. I must had misread the timeline. Nevermind then, Koros wasn't a good example but my overall point stands. There would be practitioners of magical traditions similar to Necromancy we are familiar with before Nagash but Nagash formalized everything into coherent teachings, added his own insight and was overall the loudest Necromancer and thus recognized as "The First Necromancer".
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You don't have the be a necromancer (in the warhammer sense) to fuck around with death, amethyst wizard's battle magic has a few spell about summoning spirits and even a journeyman has what it takes to contact dead people (wich, yes, is what necromancy is supposed to mean but whatever). Just in this quest "naturally occuring undead" have been mentionned. Deliberatly causing undeath/enslaving the dead is where necromancy starts, I think. (And then Nagash takes it a step further by being able to curse vampirism and summon+re-embody entire armies.)
 
Wiadi said:
I mean, that's a stance you can take, but outside of trying to somehow squeeze the original Drachenfels lore into being still kinda-sorta true if you squint, is there actually any reason to do so?
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Well, it would make sense from in-universe perspective no? You can already use Shyish to manipulate life-force or summon ghosts of dead people, Mortuary Cult was trying to invent true immortality for quite some time, there was plenty of Dhar using magicians before Nagash, from Beastmen, Troll hags to random Human tribesmen and Druchii who's teachings Nagash used for his magical tradition, would it really be a stretch for someone before Nagash to use Dark Magic with heavy emphasis on Shyish?

Also, Drachenfels kinda-sorta fits as a example, considering the fact he is still referenced in modern publications, but for this discussion that's just circular logic. Still for the sake of completeness I think I should point this out that you can technically count him if you are very charitable.
 
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Someone breaking a branch off a tree to make a pointy stick and someone painstackingly crafting a commode both are working with wood but you would really only call one of them a woodworker.

Maybe it's the same for necromancy?
 
I suspect there would be a loud group who absolutely fucking hate him for being too fun and light hearted.
And another group who absolutely love him for the same exact reason.
 
Valmond said:
I suspect there would be a loud group who absolutely fucking hate him for being too fun and light hearted.
And another group who absolutely love him for the same exact reason.
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I can imagine a case where people see him as weak due to that, then he reminds everyone that he has been alive longer than the Empire has been a thing by using his magic to style on someone.
 
Valmond said:
I suspect there would be a loud group who absolutely fucking hate him for being too fun and light hearted.
And another group who absolutely love him for the same exact reason.
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Well, this would be the Warhammer franchise and fandom we're talking about.

So a more likely case would a horrible division between whether or not Pahtsekhen was a better character back in the old editions where he was a light-hearted comic relief character or if he was best in the later period where he was a dark and/or tragic figure who drove everybody he cares about away because he just can't go against his own nature.
 
Dlan the Wizard said:
would it really be a stretch for someone before Nagash to use Dark Magic with heavy emphasis on Shyish?
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The main thing is that as I understand it Necromancy (as in the proper discipline) isn't just "Dark Magic with heavy emphasis on Shyish," it's a specific set of techniques for manipulating Shyish and Dhar in concert - techniques which seem to be relatively easy to learn but difficult to derive from first principles.

(meanwhile based on the mechanics of Dhar I don't really know if you even could do just "Dark Magic with heavy emphasis on Shyish" - it sounds like Dhar is just Dhar regardless of the exact balance of winds that went into it)
 
Sinsystems said:
So in an AU where Pahtsekhen is a canon character, what sort of memes and opinions would the fans have of him?
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I think that in memes he would have become the teacher of all the villains of Warhammer and not only.
The template would probably be like this. At first, he would talk about his student without directly saying who it was, where he would list his good qualities, and then he would show a picture of this villain.
 
H2F2 said:
I think that in memes he would have become the teacher of all the villains of Warhammer and not only.
The template would probably be like this. At first, he would talk about his student without directly saying who it was, where he would list his good qualities, and then he would show a picture of this villain.
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I can see it now, including the inevitable instance of using pictures of Nagash, the Horned Rat or Chaos Gods.

I can also see a meme of putting an Indian Jones hat on him.
 
Dlan the Wizard said:
All Slann of First Generation, and thus all Relic-Priests, are explicitly dead and hanging around their bodies as ghosts.
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The Slann of the First Generation are all dead. They're not all Relic Priests. Nor are all Relic Priests First Generation Slann.

Dlan the Wizard said:
The idea that Relic-Priests aren't just dead or Slann in general can't die just like anything else is fanon that was invented because Lizardmen fans are sore losers who deep down know their faction sucks and cope by wanking them to high heaven of stupid VS debates and misunderstanding what was stated in the text.
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No one was saying that relic Priests aren't dead.
 
Dlan the Wizard said:
Well, it would make sense from in-universe perspective no? You can already use Shyish to manipulate life-force or summon ghosts of dead people, Mortuary Cult was trying to invent true immortality for quite some time, there was plenty of Dhar using magicians before Nagash, from Beastmen, Troll hags to random Human tribesmen and Druchii who's teachings Nagash used for his magical tradition, would it really be a stretch for someone before Nagash to use Dark Magic with heavy emphasis on Shyish?

Also, Drachenfels kinda-sorta fits as a example, considering the fact he is still referenced in modern publications, but for this discussion that's just circular logic. Still for the sake of completeness I think I should point this out that you can technically count him if you are very charitable.
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No you cannot, at least not shysh alone, if you want to summon ghosts you either have to use Dhar or get a God involved. That is what necromancy does, rips out the god bits of Nehekaran theurgy and replaces them with Morathi derived soul mutilation. It's not just that Nagash was a genius to be able to do that, it's that he was working off the notes of another genius dark mage, Morathi. The notion that some rando could just go 'just add a wee bit more Shysh' into the Dhar and get anything at all usable flies in the face of everything we know about necromancy in DL and canon.
 
DragonParadox said:
No you cannot, at least not shysh alone, if you want to summon ghosts you either have to use Dhar or get a God involved
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I suppose this depends on what you're defining as "summoning". Like, there's the spells Final Words and Knocks of the Departed, which both involve getting knoeldge from dead people, and could be argued to be summoning their spirits. It's not a particualrly good argument IMO, but for sake of completeness I felt it should be mentioned.
 
Altom said:
IIRC During the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels some Amethyst wizard did successfully summon spirits. That said, even if he did do it without Dhar it still took a Storm of Magic level of power.
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I mean... do we know who wrote the book? Because if that was IC College information I could see them lying about that guy not using Dhar once they got reinstated, no reason to add more 'crimes by wizards' to what was already the worst night in the existence of the Colelges of Magic.
 
Sinsystems said:
It should be mentioned that this ship is usually docked at Altdorf, meaning it can sail up the River Reik. So if that is true....how deep is that river?
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Very, because the Chaos Dwarfs keep digging deeper trenches in order to fit their submarines up the river to drop off their hobgoblin assassins. It's why the ship has such an enormous keel actually, to try and stab the submarines.

Then the Dawi Zharr dig the trenches deeper, and the Grand Theogonist orders the keel to be made bigger, and around they go.
 
H2F2 said:
I think that in memes he would have become the teacher of all the villains of Warhammer and not only.
The template would probably be like this. At first, he would talk about his student without directly saying who it was, where he would list his good qualities, and then he would show a picture of this villain.
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I kinda like the idea of Pahtsekhen as a character only existing as a source of various quotes about the infamous people he taught.

"Young Lutr never really took to any of my scholarly lessons. He would much rather dream of glory he'd reap with his more martial skills, and the only way to get him to open a history book was to tell him of the treasures of the past. Such a shame we didn't find any scrolls describing the curses Lizardmen put on their treasure until a couple of centuries later..."
-Pathsekhen to Abdul ben Raschid
 
I still can't get over that there's an entire underground ocean under the dark elves and it's just... background material. As far as I know, at least, it doesn't really get more than a few lines of description anywhere.

I'm not a warhammer lore expert though so if I'm wrong gimme the underground ocean lore. Or just vote to steal some artifacts from there, I guess.
 
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