Betas
My betas are: @Snowfire, @Icipall, @Ruirk, and @Chief18753. They will occasionally be announcing when moratoriums and voting times are over. You can also consider their words to be Word of QM if they say "Torr said..."
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so it can be mid-tech? fascinating. Why would it be ridiculous? All it does is make everyone psionic, it doesn't give us any obvious solutions to anything.
How does having literally everyone psionic not render the fertile trait pointless? I already talked about how it offers short-term benefits and potentially increased research speed in regards to psionics, but that's all it offers.
The other traits offer a better grounding for our culture and things which it would be harder for us to acquire through actions.
*sigh* I said mid game at the Absolute earliest, and considering the typical length of these, and the time span, that could be months worth of updates.
Psionics is our space magic, it is NEVER easy to just make everyone have it. Its the End game thing for B5, Mass Effect *End game tech where you can artificially make people biotic* and any other setting you can think of.
Fertile bypasses going through that need by making it Near universal as soon as we unlock it,
Unlocking it is going to require ALOT of research and at that point it won't matter, because the rest of our tech would be so advanced that we could probably simulate Psionics anyways
To you and all people talking about making tech that makes people psionic and how possibly being psionically barren/fertile affects it, I bring word from the QM himself:
"Such tech exists if you don't have psionically barren and it is mid-late game tech."
I share the exact same sentiment. If Plan Swiss Equality does end up winning, all I really would have to say at this point is to wish the QM the best of luck with this.
Well, to be fair that is near-universal as far as a civ-quest goes: with that level of commonality you can feasibly have entire military units of psionics, entire cities or space-stations of psionics, and so forth.
Unlocking it is going to require ALOT of research and at that point it won't matter, because the rest of our tech would be so advanced that we could probably simulate Psionics anyways
That's an excellent question, and precisely why I'm not married to "psionically fertile" -- there's just so many other good options to choose from -- I find it acceptable in Omnissiah's Mandate exactly because it has the combination Adaptive/Curious/Problem Solver, with the bonus-point to spend on Torr's mystery-option.
Understandable, but the premise of this quest is to good, I want to at least try for a little bit before giving up, I did it with Kaelor's quest before I ending up hating how it went. I'll try it here, I am stubborn like that.
I can see where you're coming from, but considering what I have said before on why I don't like the current leading build, I would much rather not waste my time and the time of others trying to change the quest into something that a lot of people will fight against. If you truly want to try to avoid the lead option winning, I would suggest you perhaps look through the tally and persuade others with similar votes or views to switch over to a more tactically favorable vote, mine in this case.
It might be more fast than generally conceived to be relative to an authoritarian regime, but the inherent traits of a democracy and an authoritarian regime mean that the former makes slower decisions while the latter tends to make biased an incompletely explored ones. This is likely to hold true regardless of how fast, informative, and encompassing our IT becomes.
That was not my point when I was addressing you. While I do agree with you that Authoritarian Regimes tend to come to decisions quicker than Democratic ones, that was not my main point of contention. My main point of contention with you was your statement that a Direct Democracy would get the best answer more reliably both points that I disagree with.
The first portion I disagree with is the fact that a Direct Democracy would get the best answer when compared to an Authoritarian one. Considering the nature of a Direct Democracy, where every citizen can chime in on a vote, there will always be some voters who are not a informed as others and will make their decisions based on the information that they may or may not have. With everyone's votes having the same weight, 10 ill-informed people votes would be just as influential as 10 well-informed people, making it so that not everyone will come to a consensus as to what is a good decision. Furthermore due to the nature of democracy itself there will likely be factions that try to push an agenda, making it so that some citizens will be voting not based on what they objectively believe is the best result for all, but based on what they feel better fits their agenda. In comparison a dictatorship would have less of those problems in that with him being the central figure of the government he can be as well-informed as the entirety of his government is, and his decision can be one in which he genuinely believes is the best for the civilization, though I suspect what is good for the civilization for any dictator would also be closely linked to what is good for him.
The second portion I disagree with is the fact that a Direct Democracy is more reliable when it comes to making its decisions. When everyone has the power to cast their vote, that means that everyone is a player in the political game. While individuals are capable of making their own intelligent decisions, with a direct democracy sometimes it will be the mob that does so rather than the individual. Considering how ever Representative Democracies in this day and age have to deal with demagogues, I would not trust the reliability of the voters when the voters themselves can also participate as politicians. I don't think it's presumptuous of me to state that political winds and opinions change all the time, popular opinion especially. Based on the fact that a Direct Democracy is basically popular opinion being given a vote, I don't feel that the decisions made by a direct democracy would be very reliable due to the fact that the citizenry in general is not very consistent over a period of time. On the other hand a dictator would be moreso due to not having to juggle with with popular opinion.
Sadly, I still don't agree with the plan in general, particularly Vindictive, but I now understand and appreciate several key points on it. Thanks for sharing.
Y'all do realize that Universal Psionics are a thing, and a thing that will eventually invalidate the benefits of being Psionically Fertile, right? So you just want the short term benefits and potentially increased research speed?
Obviously. However, I disagree with your assertion that it is simply a short term benefit. Unless you have the tech tree in front of you, as well as the corresponding turn lengths it will take to reach Universal Psionic you can't really quantify how useful it will be.
@Japanime I did say "at least" two. I was trying to be succinct, but for my own part I cannot understand the mechanical side unless I have the explanations in front of me and read them closely; apparently that's just not how my brain works. And, well, I guess part of it was hoping that interest in mechanics was all that was driving some of the... intense interest in creepy military dictatorship that was happening earlier.
You can clearly retain and juggle mechanics better than I can, and that's great, but I can't, even if it would be helpful. Also, torrmercury has not actually told us exactly how government and aspects affect our stats, so I'm trying not to make assumptions about that.
And I don't actually care about Xenophilia or Cultured, I'm just sufficiently invested in the other factors to sacrifice my lesser interests.
That's fair, I just wanted to get my viewpoint out there so as to make it clear that the people voting for my plan are not wholly doing so due to mechanical reasons.
As for what you termed the "intense interest in creepy military dictatorship", I believe I can offer an explanation for that as well. It's not that the players who are voting for my plan have a hard on for fascism, rather based on past experience with similar sentiments popping up in another quest, I think it's more that they want to play the quest a different way than what quests like this usually end up being played. That is they don't want to be the xenophilic federation builders that focus heavily on diplomacy that most SV civilizations tend to become. They want to play as the militaristic civilization not because they agree with its principles but because it will force them to play differently, to use assets other than diplomacy to win the game. Think of it like a game of Civilization, in my opinion some of the people who voted for my plan are those who simply don't want to play the Blue Civ once again that they felt have been done to death, but rather they want to try the Red Civ and attempt it's strategies and victory conditions.
As for my analysis on mechanics, I felt that it was somewhat obvious that my conjecture was just that, theoretical conjecture based on what torrmercury wrote on the Empire Stats page, meaning that it could be wrong for all I know, but that it is simply my best guess on how I believe things will work.
Just to be sure, since I didn't actually put all too much in-character or story reasons for the build I chose, here is what my vision for the Terran Federation plan is.
One of the inspirations I had for the plan initially was the Terran Federation from Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers, the book not the movie, however as I explored the background that was given to us, the New Eden and Creator background, I began to draw upon Battlestar Galactica as a source of inspiration. In my mind I envisioned that during the twilight years of humanity in the other universe, they and their AI children were building an Exodus Fleet of sorts, one which they hoped would be able to deliver them from the coming end of their universe. When it came time for the Exodus Fleet to depart their doomed universe, one of the things that they had decided beforehand was their style of government. I felt that it would make sense for them to choose a government where it was the military leaders of the fleet who made the decisions, similar to the way the Migrant Fleet worked in the Mass Effect series, because of the fact that space is a dangerous place and in order to ensure the survival of humanity and the fleet it was necessary to choose a form of government where quick decisions could be made without having to worry about internal politics. The way I saw it working out the New Eden Project probably had such a chain of command given to it beforehand in order ensure the safety of the fleet, because they of all people know the potential dangers that lurk out there, and while many still believed in the principles of democratic civilian government, it was thought that at the time those ideals would be put on hold until the safety and security of humanity was assured, as in they found a new world to settle in the new universe. That is what sets the framework up for a military republic style of government later, a combination of the years of military rule along with the democratic principles they brought with them beforehand.
When it come to the story inspiration behind the aspects that I chose. Psionically Fertile was just something I believed would be interesting. Where soon after crossing universes humanity and their synthetic companions would begin to notice a change, that of psionics, where the number of those being changed psionically would lead many to question where these power came from and wondering if their crossing the threshold had something to do with it.
Curious would make sense in the story as the motivation for why humanity created the AIs and later one of their reasons for why they chose to pursue equal status with them.
Traders made sense to me story wise in that as humanity was enduring its Exodus there was a limited amount of resources to go around, so being as they were, people started to think of ways to trade items and services in order to liven up their time in the fleet.
Vindictive was likely a trait picked up due to their long time in isolation where your only company were those that were on the fleet with you, and every slight was not something you could ignore as you couldn't exactly run away from it.
Ugly isn't really applicable due to how it is how humanity is perceived by others.
Manifest Destiny made sense story wise for me due to the fact that the remnants of humanity had just left their own universe, one where they likely controlled whole swathes of the galaxy, only to be reduced to a single planet. With humanity and the AIs having remembered the calamity that caused them to fled, it made sense to me that the civilization would be bent on expansion as in order to avert the catastrophic future humanity would need to spread out and gain the resources of more than just one world or system.
As for Paranoid, I felt that it made sense storywise because of the fact that the people who were leaving for New Eden were jumping literally into the unknown. The people in charge of the Project likely knew that they would be heading into a whole new universe where they knew nothing, except for the fact that the universe was a dangerous place. Therefore it would make sense for them to fortify, take extra precautions in order to secure the survival of the Project and humanity and her children. While some may have believed it was overkill, when you are jumping into an unknown situation, you would never know what was enough until you faced it.
I hope that my story reasons helps you understand why I chose my choices the way I did outside of mechanics.
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Aug 28, 2017 at 12:08 AM, finished with 191 posts and 54 votes.
While I did somewhat expect it, considering I took all the quirky stuff and not the optimal, I'm still sad the Flower had so little success. We could have been the fancy artists with the kooky religion you go visit to see all the awesome stuff you could have, if you didn't try to murder everyone. But alas.
Obviously. However, I disagree with your assertion that it is simply a short term benefit. Unless you have the tech tree in front of you, as well as the corresponding turn lengths it will take to reach Universal Psionic you can't really quantify how useful it will be.
If taken beyond the statement it was a reply to, that's a pointless comment to make: if no one can quantify how useful it will be there is no argument for or against it, and thus picking it is a whim.
R.e. authoritarian/democratic decision-making
Authoritarian - Individuals are generally biased and limited. While some leaders might be better at being neutral and viewing things in the long term, they a) won't be able to always make the best informed decisions - because in a true authoritarian situation they'd be making every decision and only have a limited amount of time and processing power - and b) typically will have at least some degree of bias regardless. Obviously, in any real modern authoritarian setup a large bureaucratic apparatus would be created, similar to how in any real modern direct democracy a large information system would be created. Were we to pick it we'll probably be seeing another vote to figure out how exactly this authoritarian regime works.
Democratic - Sure, votes are equal. Influence on peoples' votes, however, is not. As media becomes more accessible, finding out the opinions of knowledgeable individuals will likely become easier and influence peoples' opinions in a taste-maker-esque manner. While it is likely that many individuals will still toe an ideological line and in general their own personal interest, it can be expected that over the full weight of the civ these various interests will balance each other out as people argue and arrive at a conclusion that is, quite likely, rooted in logic as much or more than it is in ideology. With this decision having been reached, it is likely that it will leak through our widespread IT system to those who were not involved in the conversation and either be challenged or agreed upon. This cyclical agonistic system is likely to result in the best decision - inferior ones simply won't get much attention. It is, of course, less effective in a society where people are habitually disinterested in the ongoing vote or where the vote is too short for sufficient debates to occur.
While I did somewhat expect it, considering I took all the quirky stuff and not the optimal, I'm still sad the Flower had so little success. We could have been the fancy artists with the kooky religion you go visit to see all the awesome stuff you could have, if you didn't try to murder everyone. But alas.
that's a pointless statement to make; if no one can quantify how useful it will be there is no argument for or against it, and thus picking it is a whim.
Except for the fact that you have been proven wrong when it comes to your assessment that it would only be a short term benefit, when word of QM says that the Universal Psionics was:
R.e. authoritarian/democratic decision-making
Authoritarian - Individuals are generally biased and limited. While some leaders might be better at being neutral and viewing things in the long term, they a) won't be able to always make the best informed decisions - because in a true authoritarian situation they'd be making every decision and only have a limited amount of time and processing power - and b) typically will have at least some degree of bias regardless. Obviously, in any real modern authoritarian setup a large bureaucratic apparatus would be created, similar to how in any real modern direct democracy a large information system would be created. Were we to pick it we'll probably be seeing another vote to figure out how exactly this authoritarian regime works.
Democratic - Sure, votes are equal. Influence on peoples' votes, however, is not. As media becomes more accessible, finding out the opinions of knowledgeable individuals will likely become easier and influence peoples' opinions in a taste-maker-esque manner. While it is likely that many individuals will still toe an ideological line and in general their own personal interest, it can be expected that over the full weight of the civ these various interests will balance each other out as people argue and arrive at a conclusion that is, quite likely, rooted in logic as much or more than it is in ideology. With this decision having been reached, it is likely that it will leak through our widespread IT system to those who were not involved in the conversation and either be challenged or agreed upon. This cyclical agonistic system is likely to result in the best decision - inferior ones simply won't get much attention. It is, of course, less effective in a society where people are habitually disinterested in the ongoing vote or where the vote is too short for sufficient debates to occur.
Good points, but the key thing you left out was the fact that citizens do not solely base their decisions and votes purely on facts. On the contrary if history has shown us anything, people are just as likely to vote for a conclusion that is not rooted in logic at all but in ideology and feelings. I don't really feel that I need to elaborate on this point considering that there are so many recent examples that illustrate this point, as well as the fact that I don't want to bring in real life politics here. That is one of the main reasons I don't believe a Direct Democracy will work as you believe, because of the numerous examples where people in a democracy chose to vote based on ideological lines rather than purely logical ones.
Secondly, while you are right that media should evolve enough for people to be able to figure out the opinions of knowledgeable individuals, I believe that that same technology will allow others to exploit it to get their message out there as well. Demagogues, ideologues, and populists will be just as accessible to the common public as would any experts. I would not find it surprising if people chose to ignore actual experts in favor of finding people who share their opinions, confirmation bias in effect essentially. It's happened before, and even happens today even though we have the ability to find out experts through the media just like you posited. Simply put I don't believe that human nature has changed enough that the population and citizenry will vote solely on the basis of logic and reason.
This is simply my opinion on the matter, whether this actually is true for the quest is something only the QM can answer. I am about to head to bed, so I would like to suggest that we agree to disagree on this topic.
If your vote choice ends up winning, then I wish you the best of luck with this quest. While your choices are not my cup of tea, nor do they interest me, I still hope that you will enjoy the quest all the same.
Except for the fact that you have been proven wrong when it comes to your assessment that it would only be a short term benefit, when word of QM says that the Universal Psionics was:
how have I been proven wrong?
a) early game is short term
b) anything other than eternally useful is, arguably, short-term
c) I also mentioned increased psionic research speed but y'all just ignore that
Good points, but the key thing you left out was the fact that citizens do not solely base their decisions and votes purely on facts. On the contrary if history has shown us anything, people are just as likely to vote for a conclusion that is not rooted in logic at all but in ideology and feelings.
If your vote choice ends up winning, then I wish you the best of luck with this quest. While your choices are not my cup of tea, nor do they interest me, I still hope that you will enjoy the quest all the same.
You too. I'm not actually against any non-Direct Democratic choice: they all have downsides. I'm only voting for the swedish choice because it's the only one that's winning that I actually like. I genuinely supported Flower of the One more, because a theocratic republic sounds interesting and effective and the image of such a society is appealing.
Well, here's an interesting build... given that the "Universal Psionic" tech is mid/late game it doesn't include psionically fertile in order to grab up the Curious/Adaptive/Problem Solver trifecta while adding both Weird and conserving a point for Torr's ???-attribute.
[ ] Catholicus Respublica ex Techno-Animus
-[x] Theocratic Republic
-[x] Curious
-[x] Weird
-[x] Adaptive
-[x] Problem Solvers
how have I been proven wrong?
a) early game is short term
b) anything other than eternally useful is, arguably, short-term
c) I also mentioned increased psionic research speed but y'all just ignore that
The fact that the QM indicated that Universal Psionics was mid-late game means to me that it could anywhere from half of the game to three quarters of the way through the quest, which for most people would not be considered short term.
As for usefulness, that is up to the opinion of the wielder, so I don't see any further point to argue or quibble about that.
I didn't ignore psionic research speed, I just didn't think it was worthwhile to note, mostly because of the fact that when it comes to research we will have to set our priorities straight when it comes to research, and if psionic research isn't chosen then it won't matter much.
I saw you caveat there at the end about disinterested voters or debates being too short to matter, however I didn't believe they addressed my point and they still don't.
You too. I'm not actually against any non-Direct Democratic choice: they all have downsides. I'm only voting for the swedish choice because it's the only one that's winning that I actually like.
Fair enough, I understand. Though I think you mean the Swiss choice, as the Swedish would likely be cross with you for confusing them with the Swiss and vice versa. I've said all I need to say about that plan so I won't reiterate.
While I did somewhat expect it, considering I took all the quirky stuff and not the optimal, I'm still sad the Flower had so little success. We could have been the fancy artists with the kooky religion you go visit to see all the awesome stuff you could have, if you didn't try to murder everyone. But alas.
Vindicative + Manifest Destiny = Welcome to Eternal War Boogaloo as we expand everywhere, including systems other polities consider theirs but hadn't placed a beacon there, get pissed off that they aren't having it and Revenge Circle begins.
@torrmercury
Is it possible to extend the voting time? I'll have more time tomorrow to convince people.
Many of the votes are just trying to get the second worse rather then the worst (in their minds anyways)
more than a few have expressed obvious sentiments that make it obvious that their not anywhere close to #1
(Doing this well before the time is up so you can decide)
I want to try to push a compromise vote
[] Plan Compromise -[ Stratified Democracy
-[] Cultured (1) Mutually exclusive with Blunt -[] Traders (1)
-[ Manifest Destiny (1)
-[] Curious (1) - [] Adaptive (1)
Hows this?
I incorporated traits from the Swiss and Terran plan, things that I've seen expressed as wants, things people seemed interested in, I even gave up on the trait I want (the fertile trait)
I am willing to discuss traits and change things up.
