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In 40K, is Chaos corruption of Non-Imperial human society inevitable?

MJ12 Commando said:
I'd argue that if they ever bothered to advance the timeline and properly do a 3145 tech manual, it'd be the Clan ilStar project. There's some hints in Era Report 3145 IIRC that the Clans have been working on seriousface genemods in 3145 to keep their edge, way beyond the normal stuff that even Elementals managed and closer to Society tech.
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Probably but that would require me to give a damn about the 3145-era, which even if I wanted to they've made difficult by stanning for awful people because CGL's writers apparently really like some of the more villainous factions/characters.
 
Hykal94 said:
I also said I recognise this, but BattleTech does a bad job actually showing you all this combined arms stuff.

Maybe they shouldn't name their series after giant robots?
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But it's like, not?

Like the robots in the series are called 'BattleMechs', not 'BattleTech'.

MJ12 Commando said:
If we're still going with the ilKhan as the next stop in the timeline, that would probably play a part in the Clans' ability to take Terra.
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You know I do feel it's a shame that that idea got so much pushback from the fans. It sounds like it could be an interesting direction to take, and it's almost certainly going to end with their downfall eventually.
 
GretelOstrich said:
wow that's a really weird looking Warhammer, is it from some obscure MechWarrior mod
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I mean you say this but imperial knights are pretty damn new. They went from something that theoretically existed in the lore to being omnipresent in major battles as well as on the table top with all new lore and a new look. One of the first things I asked when I got back into 40k was "what is the deal with all those titan things?"
 
Imperial Knights look worse than even Warhound titans. About the only thing worse is whatever that mecha-exoskeleton thing the grey knights have.

You can make industrial and even baroque style mechs without making them look like a pile of shit, jesus.
 
Night said:
They're really not, though, they've been around since the original Adeptus Titanicus/Epic back in the '90s.
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That's why I said they theoretically already existed? But the stuff from back then and now are very different both lore wise and visually. So it's more like 5th edition necrons then anything, where they used a pre existing faction but revamped its look and lore.
 
Twist ending: The big enemy the Tyranids are running from are actually the 41st century Clans out to restore the Star League yet again.
 
Hykal94 said:
THIS BOOK HERE SAYS THE CLANS ARE A BUNCHA HERETICS

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GretelOstrich said:
wow that's a really weird looking Warhammer, is it from some obscure MechWarrior mod
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Alex said:
I mean you say this but imperial knights are pretty damn new. They went from something that theoretically existed in the lore to being omnipresent in major battles as well as on the table top with all new lore and a new look. One of the first things I asked when I got back into 40k was "what is the deal with all those titan things?"
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What

Wait.

This is a Warhammer Unit?

Actually?

It looks exactly like it's a Cygnar Warjack from WarMachine. Right down to the pain job.

Like I thought that was the joke until no one called it out. It looks exactly like the core unit type from WarMachine.

I'm all but certain that I *owned* one of these bastards in WarMachine when I played Cygnar (and hated every moment of it because the Human faction 'jacks are ugly as fuck)

If I wasnt stuck on a phone I'd post examples.
 
AKuz said:
What

Wait.

This is a Warhammer Unit?

Actually?

It looks exactly like it's a Cygnar Warjack from WarMachine. Right down to the pain job.

Like I thought that was the joke until no one called it out. It looks exactly like the core unit type from WarMachine.

I'm all but certain that I *owned* one of these bastards in WarMachine when I played Cygnar (and hated every moment of it because the Human faction 'jacks are ugly as fuck)

If I wasnt stuck on a phone I'd post examples.
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Well they are a reintroduction of these units from the EPIC line in 1988

 
Anyway, I can imagine what the best possible social organization for defeating chaos would look like.

Basically, just do the exact opposite of the Imperium of Man in almost every regard. Create a just and free state that tries to maximize the happiness and contentment of all citizens. Encourage the welcoming of the different and alien. Eliminate want to the best of your ability.

Chaos is invited and empowered by conflict and desperation. Produce less of those emotional energies, and the chaos gods will have fewer opportunities to exploit, their power will weaken, and some new and more benign gods are likely to form eventually. The Imperium is constantly at war with everyone else and itself (feeding rivers and rivers of blood to Khorne), and forcing quadrillions of sentient beings to become desperate (feeding Tzeench), give in to despair and apathy (feeding Nurgle), or decide to drown their misery in catharsis (feeding Slaanesh). The Imperium of Man is the foundation on which Chaos is built. The soil from which it draws nutrients. Smaller societies are probably only getting overrun by chaos BECAUSE of the Imperium's emotional pollution of the warp making chaos stronger.

It's probably too late for the Imperium of Man to turn itself around. But that's not what the OP is asking. The Imperium isn't humanity's one reprieve from chaos corruption, it is one of the two MAIN SOURCES of chaos corruption along with the Eldar Empire and its Drukhari survivors.
 
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You cant overdo it with the freedom etc. or you might invite other forms of corruption, maybe like stuff that got at the eldar etc.
Sure, freedom and happiness etc. is a very good start, but something like inquisition (as its supposed to be, not as it actually is in the imperium) might still be necessary, at least at first.

A free and just and happy society may make it much harder for chaos to get a grip, but we dont want a situation where it can far easier stay hidden or be unopposed. Chaos is very much one of these things where intolerance is very justified.
 
Leila Hann said:
Anyway, I can imagine what the best possible social organization for defeating chaos would look like.

Basically, just do the exact opposite of the Imperium of Man in almost every regard. Create a just and free state that tries to maximize the happiness and contentment of all citizens. Encourage the welcoming of the different and alien. Eliminate want to the best of your ability.

Chaos is invited and empowered by conflict and desperation. Produce less of those emotional energies, and the chaos gods will have fewer opportunities to exploit, their power will weaken, and some new and more benign gods are likely to form eventually. The Imperium is constantly at war with everyone else and itself (feeding rivers and rivers of blood to Khorne), and forcing quadrillions of sentient beings to become desperate (feeding Tzeench), give in to despair and apathy (feeding Nurgle), or decide to drown their misery in catharsis (feeding Slaanesh). The Imperium of Man is the foundation on which Chaos is built. The soil from which it draws nutrients. Smaller societies are probably only getting overrun by chaos BECAUSE of the Imperium's emotional pollution of the warp making chaos stronger.

It's probably too late for the Imperium of Man to turn itself around. But that's not what the OP is asking. The Imperium isn't humanity's one reprieve from chaos corruption, it is one of the two MAIN SOURCES of chaos corruption along with the Eldar Empire and its Drukhari survivors.
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Except that did exist during the Dark Age of Technology. However, two key things happened:

1) Men of Iron going full Skynet causing technology to regress by millennia.

2) The Eldar partying Slaanesh into existence that was heralded by Millennia of Warp Storms rendering FTL travel impossible. By the time Slaanesh emerged, the galaxy was too far gone. And if theories are correct, Slaanesh was another step on the countdown to the end of everything (Sacred number is 6)

It's easy to advocate liberal democracy when don't have to deal with a species that came back from the brink after a 5 Millennia long Bronze Age Collapse, tried to reclaim the remnants and then got shafted by a galaxy wide civil war that almost ruined everything. A modern liberal democracy would get torn apart by chaos of M30, let lone M41.
 
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Mithras said:
Except that did exist during the Dark Age of Technology. However, two key things happened:

1) Men of Iron going full Skynet causing technology to regress by millennia.

2) The Eldar partying Slaanesh into existence that was heralded by Millennia of Warp Storms rendering FTL travel impossible. By the time Slaanesh emerged, the galaxy was too far gone. And if theories are correct, Slaanesh was another step on the countdown to the end of everything (Sacred number is 6)

It's easy to advocate liberal democracy when don't have to deal with a species that came back from the brink after a 5 Millennia long Bronze Age Collapse, tried to reclaim the remnants and then got shafted by a galaxy wide civil war that almost ruined everything. A modern liberal democracy would get torn apart by chaos of M30, let lone M41.
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I'm aware. There are reasons the Imperium became what it became. But regardless of those reasons, and whether anything better could have happened under those circumstances, the form that it took does much more to feed chaos than hinder it. And it certainly isn't more resistant to chaos than other alternatives, both existing within the setting and merely hypothetical, would be, and that's what OP was asking.

I disagree with your assertion that liberal democracy would be destroyed in M41, or at least that it would be destroyed faster than the Imperium is being destroyed. Now, M30 is different of course; any society would have fallen apart in the wake of the Men of Iron and the opening of the Eye. There's not much that could have been done about that, at least in terms of social organization and government. And it's very hard for such a society to form in the wake of such a massive collapse, which is presumably why we got the Imperium instead of something better.

Xexilf said:
You cant overdo it with the freedom etc. or you might invite other forms of corruption, maybe like stuff that got at the eldar etc.
Sure, freedom and happiness etc. is a very good start, but something like inquisition (as its supposed to be, not as it actually is in the imperium) might still be necessary, at least at first.

A free and just and happy society may make it much harder for chaos to get a grip, but we dont want a situation where it can far easier stay hidden or be unopposed. Chaos is very much one of these things where intolerance is very justified.
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Yes, a free and democratic society inevitably leads to people having torture orgies on an interplanetary scale. Obviously. There's no possible way that it could fail to lead to that. :rolleyes:
 
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Eldar managed to get so bad by abusing their reincarnation system iirc. Humans haven'tt had a reliable reincarnation system since the war in heavan.
 
Carrnage said:
Eldar managed to get so bad by abusing their reincarnation system iirc. Humans haven'tt had a reliable reincarnation system since the war in heavan.
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The fall of the eldar wasn't due to their reincarnation system, both the dark eldar and craftworld eldar's methods were made after the fall so they would not get consumed by Slannesh. Their society fell because they slowly fell into horrible debauchery that eventually birthed Slannesh. Also humans have were not involved in the war in heaven, that was the old ones vs the Ctan and Necrons/necrontyr.
 
I don't know if I made this pithy point in this thread before but:

Imperium: *Fights a massive civil war between a full half of their empire corrupted to chaos including half of the Primarchs turning chaos from a metaphysical threat to one of the most militarily powerful factions in the galaxy*

Imperium: Truly it is non-Imperial societies are doomed to fall to Chaos!
 
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Alex said:
The fall of the eldar wasn't due to their reincarnation system, both the dark eldar and craftworld eldar's methods were made after the fall so they would not get consumed by Slannesh. Their society fell because they slowly fell into horrible debauchery that eventually birthed Slannesh. Also humans have were not involved in the war in heaven, that was the old ones vs the Ctan and Necrons/necrontyr.
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Modern Eldar don't reincarnate, craft world eldar go into soul gems which are then plugged into their craftworld's infinity circuit (and use the caste system to evade slaanesh's soul drain on their race while alive) and dark eldar stave off death by feeding on suffering.

before slaanesh Eldar could reincarnate freely and without any loss of memory this lead to eldar abusing it by treating their lives as cheap and even the lives of other eldar.

Humanity wasn't involved in the war in heavan however they were effected by it when the Immaterium turned into a hellscape populated by soul devouring daemons.
 
Carrnage said:
Modern Eldar don't reincarnate, craft world eldar go into soul gems which are then plugged into their craftworld's infinity circuit (and use the caste system to evade slaanesh's soul drain on their race while alive) and dark eldar stave off death by feeding on suffering.

before slaanesh Eldar could reincarnate freely and without any loss of memory this lead to eldar abusing it by treating their lives as cheap and even the lives of other eldar.

Humanity wasn't involved in the war in heavan however they were effected by it when the Immaterium turned into a hellscape populated by soul devouring daemons.
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Dark eldar can most definitely reincarnate, they just bring bits of the dead person back to a hommunculus and he can grab their soul and put it in a new body, this is why the covens are so prized and allowed such a long leash by greater Drukhari society.

do you have a quote on the pre fall eldar having that tech? It doesnt seem impossible but I havenever heard it before.

the stuff about the shamans is really really really old lore and should be taken with a mountain of salt, especially with the newer horus heresy books implying a very different idea of the emperor. As for the war in heaven messing with humanity... the war in heaven ended millions of years before humanity was even a thing, we were not around to feel its effects on the warp.
 
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