In 40K, is Chaos corruption of Non-Imperial human society inevitable?

This had a pretty vigourous discussion more than once in the RPG politics thread.

It's fair to bring up on multiple levels that the Imperium is actually the author of a lot of its own problems. Chaos is part of this. The Imperium's incompetence and repression severely wastes its resources and actually helps promote the spread of Chaos. Plus its militarised society and overreliance on protection by Space Marines simultaneously leaves it hugely open to political instability.

I can't find the original post, but someone made the point that Chaos could be argued to be a reflection of what it draws off of. The reason Chaos is so awful and unspeakable in 40K is because it draws off of an awful and unspeakable society. One wonders what shape Chaos would take if the Imperium were replaced by a democratic, federalised instellar government that practised religious tolerance and civil society over military dominance rather than... the Imperium as we have it now.

There was that, but then the Eldar started to worship excess and party Slaanesh into existence. As a result, liberal/Roddenberry values espoused by the DAoT came crashing down. The Imperial Truth was a Cargo Cult version of the DAoT and that came crashing down as well.

tl;dr blame the Eldar.
 
There was that, but then the Eldar started to worship excess and party Slaanesh into existence. As a result, liberal/Roddenberry values espoused by the DAoT came crashing down. The Imperial Truth was a Cargo Cult version of the DAoT and that came crashing down as well.

tl;dr blame the Eldar.

Would that imply that Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle were relatively harmless until the birth of Slaanesh somehow made them not harmless?
 
"What I want to know is whether this is a purely narrative conceit in order to keep the Imperium of Man the only relevant human faction in the setting, or if there are actual in-universe reasons as to why non-Imperial, interstellar human civilizations cannot exist without falling to Chaos."

I'm not sure exactly what's being asked here. That is, surely 'in-universe reasons' are a narrative conceit if used as such?

I think if you start going into 'in a simulationist sense' with something as deeply silly as 40k you are kind of playing calvinball. Like, you could maintain that only unflinching Imperial Hard Men Making Hard Choices can defeat insidious corruption, and find sources for that. Or you could say that the opposite is totally possible and the stable of authors don't elect to tell those stories, and prove that point.

Like, there are too many authors writing too much 40k for it to have a coherent answer to ANYTHING, much less such a sweeping question. It feels like ultimately it is as possible as you, the content creator, want it to be?
 
And if we're going back to "authorial intent" then we can and should also go back to the authorial intent from first purposes, and you can absolutely do a wargame where every faction has a reason to go to war against every other faction, that you play on a tabletop with small groups of miniatures, without making the setting absurdly
Sure, but will it last or be successful? Warhammer came out in 1987. Can you honestly name another tabletop wargame from the late 80's? Even if you can, can you honestly say it has the same lifespan and cultural relevancy of 40k? 40k is liked and successful because it's grimdark, because that is the most defining thing setting it apart from it's competition.
Except this assumes that 'mind controlling daemons' and 'world eating bugs' are strictly speaking necessary to the setting. 40k has rewritten its background again and again and in fact has often rewritten it to make the Imperium less unsympathetic, so this doesn't really follow. The Tyranids (well, Genestealers, back in the day) could just as easily have been written as a functional polity which wasn't genocidal and happened to have buggy aesthetics, Chaos could have been retconned to be more benign, with the positive aspects of the Chaos Gods emphasized, they literally rewrote the Necrons entirely to make them sympathetic and capable of things like 'diplomacy' and 'having actual characters,' and it's not hard to say "the galaxy is constantly full of skirmishes because communications is slow, everyone borders everyone else, and no faction is actually particularly united."
And then it'll be like every other late 80's tabletop setting apeing the current political climate with space!cold war. 40k is grimdark because GW wants it grimdark, and the Imperium being an awful necessity's a large part of that grimdark formula.

The Necron rewrite was just good world design: you already have one mindless tide of death in the Tyranids, why not make the unloved machine faction unique with dynasties and politics and characters with unique, limited time models?
Except that infamous 40k blurb that coined the very term "grimdark" made it clear that the Imperium is the worst regime to ever rule humanity. That is part of what you dub the "grimderp". It isn't that the Imperium is necessary. It's that the Imperium, just like every other faction, makes the setting even worse, even more dystopian. Humanity is preyed upon by orcs and literal daemons and world eating bugs and in addition it slaves under the most cruel, most wasteful, hilariously inefficient regime history has ever known.

Because grimdark.
Yeah, thats my point. GW wrote the Imperium as is to add to the grimdark, the only disconnect is that I'm further arguing that because of this, GW would never allow a viable alternative, and if pressed would justify this as the Imperium being necessary.
It's always fascinating how people in the 40k fandom have a tendency to get all outraged about the (admittedly existent) Tau atrocities, while at the same time that is stuff the Imperium is doing on a regular and daily base on far larger scales.
The Joke

Your head.

The Imperium's atrocities are old news, but I'm not seeing how fans are sleeping on them when you literally can't bring up 40k without several someones' mentioning them. Contrast to the Tau who are often presented in a better light than the Imperium, when, as you say, they're qualitatively just as awful.
Have you heard of a thing called a 'joke'?

I'm not saying, to be clear, 'it's just a joke' is a valid defense of anything, but you literally pulled out a humorous footnote that is debatable in whether it even seemed to be intended to be read plainly and then went on a rant seemingly assuming Susano is some manner of communist apologist or whatever for... a silly footnote that was intentionally made missable, positioned to be disconnected from his actual main point etc.
Maybe re-examine that quote and consider wether it was fully serious? Because I cannot civilly tell you quite how frustrating it is for someone to take your joking response to a joke, interpret it as serious, and then go off on a rant about it.

Especially when the poster before them had already recognized and responded to the joke with another one.
 
Sure, but will it last or be successful? Warhammer came out in 1987. Can you honestly name another tabletop wargame from the late 80's? Even if you can, can you honestly say it has the same lifespan and cultural relevancy of 40k? 40k is liked and successful because it's grimdark, because that is the most defining thing setting it apart from it's competition.

Mostly just wanted to reply to this bit, with "BattleTech" and "yes"
 
BattleTech has nowhere near the cultural relevance of 40k tho. I've literally never heard of Battletech until I heard the Shadowrun fellas was going to make a game based on it. 40k however, I've heard at least partially by osmosis, since I was a teenager.
 
I figured the sheer number of mechwarrior video games over the years, and the novel series it'd count, but it did die off a fair bit after 4 and the late 2000s, and I may have just been paying attention more due to getting in through the novels in the late 90s.
 
That's fair. Mech Warrior is a fascinating universe I'd like to get into more, but a) I prefer bloody infantry, tanks, and giant robots over just giant robots and b) I don't know where to start.

I know Mech Warrior is more than just giant robots, but giant robots to Mech Warrior are what Space Marines are to 40k.
 
The Imperium's atrocities are old news, but I'm not seeing how fans are sleeping on them when you literally can't bring up 40k without several someones' mentioning them. Contrast to the Tau who are often presented in a better light than the Imperium, when, as you say, they're qualitatively just as awful.

What people often forget, is that the Tau when they first appeared, were supposed to be a "shining light in a dark universe" (I am paraphrasing loosly from promotional material I had in hand for the race at the time), but then fans threw a tantrum and well, we got space-fish communists now.
 
I honestly don't buy "GW made Tau not so great anymore because fans mad", because to me, they're a bit more experienced. They know they're a small fish in an ocean and they got smarter about it. With the exception of isolated planets or Ultramar's 500 worlds, the Tau likely still are the nicest place to live in (save the odd Nids nom noms).

Basically, the Tau got character development. No longer naive, but hardended and more experienced.
 
What's the MechWarrior equivalent of Primaris Lieutenants?

I think a good bit of the problems simply come from the fact that the Black Library has to deal with the suspension of disbelief and protagonists that draw the reader in and therefore have some like ability, while GW everywhere else is able to go full ham and embrace all the cheesiness and memes that they can and that the setting is about.
 
Yeah but that's not really the Interex's fault, being super careful about this dude who calls himself 'Warmaster' decked in power armor with a big fuckoff mace, and thinking "are these the servants of Khorne?"
Not to mention the armour covered in eyes, Horus oozing with warpstuff and his bodyguards barely restraining themselves from killing Interex diplomats.
 
I honestly don't buy "GW made Tau not so great anymore because fans mad", because to me, they're a bit more experienced. They know they're a small fish in an ocean and they got smarter about it. With the exception of isolated planets or Ultramar's 500 worlds, the Tau likely still are the nicest place to live in (save the odd Nids nom noms).

Basically, the Tau got character development. No longer naive, but hardended and more experienced.

Could the Imperium have an epiphany and have character development, but in the other direction? I mean the original grimdark setting was the product of its time (from what I've read), so perhaps the setting could evolve, again in response to the current situation.

while GW everywhere else is able to go full ham and embrace all the cheesiness and memes that they can and that the setting is about.

From the only Black Library books I've read (Gotrek&Felix, Ciaphas Cain and 1 Gaunt's Ghosts), there are some Black Library books that embrace the ham.
 
The eyes on Horus' armor is probably an artefact of the early days of 40k where Primarchs were named because of how cool/funny they are. Horus of course, being an Egyptian god whose symbol is called the Eye of Horus.

In-universe, the eyes on Horus is called the Eye of Terra, bestowed upon him by dad. Source: Horus Rising.

Could the Imperium have an epiphany and have character development, but in the other direction? I mean the original grimdark setting was the product of its time (from what I've read), so perhaps the setting could evolve, again in response to the current situation.

We just gotta wait for Cardboard Gilgamesh to finish writing his book on fixing the Imperium. The concept of him writing a book of laws reminds me of that one episode of TTS.



Despite being a demigod being of Warpstuff, I truly hope they don't fuck Guilliman's character up. There's so much that can be done with the guy, and I speak as someone who doesn't even like the Ultramarines.
 
The eyes on Horus' armor is probably an artefact of the early days of 40k where Primarchs were named because of how cool/funny they are. Horus of course, being an Egyptian god whose symbol is called the Eye of Horus.

In-universe, the eyes on Horus is called the Eye of Terra, bestowed upon him by dad. Source: Horus Rising.



We just gotta wait for Cardboard Gilgamesh to finish writing his book on fixing the Imperium. The concept of him writing a book of laws reminds me of that one episode of TTS.



Despite being a demigod being of Warpstuff, I truly hope they don't fuck Guilliman's character up. There's so much that can be done with the guy, and I speak as someone who doesn't even like the Ultramarines.


TTS Imperium for its many flaws, its still a better place to live than cannon Imperium.
 
BattleTech has nowhere near the cultural relevance of 40k tho. I've literally never heard of Battletech until I heard the Shadowrun fellas was going to make a game based on it. 40k however, I've heard at least partially by osmosis, since I was a teenager.

That's because Battletech crashed and burned in the late 90s-early 00s for various mismanagement-related reasons (FASA was not good at running a game line) and never quite recovered. At its height, Battletech was pretty fucking popular and even had a significant toy line, an animated cartoon everyone laughs at but was kind of cool by 90s standards, and a ton of popular videogames that had a sizable audience.

There's also the core issue that because of how Battletech's fanbase is set up right now, the CGL devs have been extremely leery of doing anything that might, you know, streamline the rules and make them semi-playable without computer assistance. It would be pretty easy to drastically rebalance and streamline Battletech to get MWO and HBS Battletech fans into the game if you weren't afraid of angering the grogs, but the grogs have money and are loud.

And I heard of Battletech a long long time before I heard of 40k, and Battletech's giant robot aesthetics are unconsciously aped in a lot of places...
 
And then it'll be like every other late 80's tabletop setting apeing the current political climate with space!cold war. 40k is grimdark because GW wants it grimdark, and the Imperium being an awful necessity's a large part of that grimdark formula.
What? No it isn't. If anything it dilutes it. The Imperium being vicious idiots in a dire setting that calls for a level head was one of the things that used to make the setting so damn bleak.
 
I'm not an old man like you, MJ. I'm only 19. :V

So your teenage years would have come well after Dawn of War 1 and 2, and Space Marine would have been a thing for a few years, while no Mechwarrior/Mechcommander games would have been released for over a decade. It's not really a wonder that you wouldn't have heard about Battletech while you would have heard of 40k, given that Battletech was mostly dormant then and 40k was undergoing a multimedia-driven resurgence in interest.
 
To be completely serious I'm not 19 (that 94 is a big hint), but I got into 40k via Dawn of War when I was in college. Played it on my friend's computer at 18, and it was quite the experience. The first time I've heard of 40k was actually TotalBiscuit's video on Space Marine. Took a look, went "well this looks fucking dumb". Got into Space Marine later after DoW and went "it IS super dumb" and got on from there.

It's quite a strange predicament when it comes to wargaming. Battletech went super hard into video games, whereas 40k diversified with tons of games but still kept their tabletop stuff alive.

Battletech also has a problem with only having giant robots being the main focus, whereas 40k has the whole combined arms thing. I know this isn't actually true for all Battletech stuff, but giant robots alone does nothing for me.
 
I honestly don't buy "GW made Tau not so great anymore because fans mad", because to me, they're a bit more experienced. They know they're a small fish in an ocean and they got smarter about it. With the exception of isolated planets or Ultramar's 500 worlds, the Tau likely still are the nicest place to live in (save the odd Nids nom noms).

Basically, the Tau got character development. No longer naive, but hardended and more experienced.

Uh, not really. The 8e'd stuff about the Tau retroactively made them into total dipshits and no better than the Imperium from the start of their Empire. I don't like the Tau and I feel that it was unnecessary. Their hope and optimism wasn't ground down from the merciless galaxy and its thirsting gods, it was nothing but a façade for the Tau at the start now.
 
Back
Top