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Holding the Line (Changing Destiny Spinoff)

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The best thing that can happen to ABDA is for it to not be in a situation where the Admiral in charge doesn't speak English. Or for someone to pass Admiral Doormann the memo about shipgirls and use them to handle the interfleet communications.
 
Where do people get that Doorman did not speak English? He was a well educated Dutch and those times that means he spoke German, French, English, Malay and of course Dutch.

If there are no capital ships around, then Doorman takes command of the cruisers under Hart. The DEI are Dutch and Dutch ships make up the largest proportion of the fleet.
 
Gosu said:
Where do people get that Doorman did not speak English? He was a well educated Dutch and those times that means he spoke German, French, English, Malay and of course Dutch.

If there are no capital ships around, then Doorman takes command of the cruisers under Hart. The DEI are Dutch and Dutch ships make up the largest proportion of the fleet.
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1. its less that more him being a shitty surface commander.
2. He only took over because Hart had a major heart attack in OTL, which might not happen this time around.
 
Actually, what was the Japanese idea about moving personnel around? I know that air groups were assigned to a carrier and were not transferred, but what about land based naval forces?
 
Spectre said:
1. its less that more him being a shitty surface commander.
2. He only took over because Hart had a major heart attack in OTL, which might not happen this time around.
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Him being a shitty commander is a given even if only because he didn't detach a sailor who knew english at least for the flagship of every other division to quickly traslate orders (and one in his flagship to understand what the hell the other ships were doing, that said at this poing of the war he was a highly succesful naval officer whose greatest virtue was a willingness to use his command agressively and a diplomatic disposition which had a lot of impact in the establishment of the ABDA.

The Hart part on the other hand is going to be tricky since he should still have all maladies he suffered in the OTL since having a surprise attack earlier does little about anything that happened before, including chronic diseases.
 
Thorthemighty said:
I didn't know that the G3M and G4M were Navy Planes, I thought they were also used by the IJAAS.
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The IJN's main land-based bombers were the Mitsubishi G3M and G4M. The IJA used the Mitsubishi Ki-21, the Kawasaki Ki-48, the Nakajima Ki-49, and - later - the Mitsubishi Ki-67.
 
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Spectre said:
1. its less that more him being a shitty surface commander.
2. He only took over because Hart had a major heart attack in OTL, which might not happen this time around.
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He was IMO also allowed to take over because there was nothing that could be done and everyone could see it. Prior to Java Sea he asked permission to withdraw and save his command, but received orders to attack the Japanese anyway, everyone knowing it was suicide.

BF110C4 said:
Him being a shitty commander is a given even if only because he didn't detach a sailor who knew english at least for the flagship of every other division to quickly traslate orders (and one in his flagship to understand what the hell the other ships were doing,
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They did detach signalling crew. Two of the USN and RN signallers on board during Java Sea went down with the flagship.

Issue was the ships were from three different fleets without being given the time to work things out. If the squadron comes under air attack and signals for anti-air dispositions, you can't have the British and Australians maneuvering for the required British style positions, the US ships for the equivalent US positions, and the same for the Dutch. You have to have all that worked out in advance, and then drill in it. Otherwise 'line ahead' is pretty much the only viable option.

This is a major part of what NATO does: standardize, make sure everyone can understand what the other wants, and drill together. ABDA did not get this luxury.

BF110C4 said:
The Hart part on the other hand is going to be tricky since he should still have all maladies he suffered in the OTL since having a surprise attack earlier does little about anything that happened before, including chronic diseases.
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Nobody wanted that particular command at that particular time, unless it was with orders to go to Australia. But Singapore had fallen, and the Australians weren't senior enough. That left the Dutch to hold the bag.
 
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That's... kinda sad to be honest. He casically got handed a giant catch-22 and no time to turn off the fan before the fecal matter hit it.
 
As an aside, Hart was not succeeded by Doorman. He was succeeded by Helfrich, who was Doorman's boss in the Dutch Navy.

Doorman commanded the Dutch surface forces, which as time went on had more and more other units attached to them and formed the 'ABDA strike force' until they were the only remaining strike force in the DEI/Malaya.
 
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Found this thread recently, procrastinated on reading it, finally got to the end.
...Sees no necro warning...

Dirtnap said:
IJN intelligence was pretty terrible.
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I fixed your statement to be more appropriate for the guys who decided to take every other major naval power on at once.

Thorthemighty said:
Not sure about mistaking a Fletcher class for a Light Cruiser though, how do you succeed in doing that? They are vastly different!
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In World of Warships, a Mahan can do a pretty good impression of a discount Atlanta, at the same tier, with the same guns (but far fewer of course) in being a flamethrower from behind an island. Obviously not the best use of them, but without magically reloading torpedoes, well, firing all the guns as fast as you can will make a USN DD do a good light cruiser impression by Japanese standards anyhow.
 
Thorthemighty said:
Not sure about mistaking a Fletcher class for a Light Cruiser though, how do you succeed in doing that? They are vastly different!
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Besides the gunnery thing, flush decks. Everyone else on the planet built destroyers with a distinctive raised forecastle. The Fletchers and their descendants were an exception, which gave them rather cruiser-like lines.
 
CV12Hornet said:
Besides the gunnery thing, flush decks. Everyone else on the planet built destroyers with a distinctive raised forecastle. The Fletchers and their descendants were an exception, which gave them rather cruiser-like lines.
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Which is part of the reasons they were mistakenly identified as cruisers by the japanese.
 
AlphaDelta said:
In addition, Fletchers only have slightly less firepower than Sendai.
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The Sendai-class had a significantly heavier broadside than a Fletcher, though with rate of fire and the significantly better metallurgy used to construct 5" Special Purpose Common shells compared to the Japanese 14cm Capped Common Mod 2 means that the Fletcher might actually outperform a Sendai in a gun duel. Which is hilarious and sad, since a Sendai displaces two and a half times as much as a Fletcher.

Can't be totally sure, since I can't find AP tables for the 14cm/50, but the Fletcher's 5/38 can punch through the 2.5" belt of a Sendai at about 10,000 yards, going by the table on Navweaps, and a bit of an educated guess.

Obviously, the Sendai has to simply hit the Fletcher, assuming Point Detonating HE is used, but 10,000 yards is an engagement range you could realistically see happening. And the Fletcher is pumping out anywhere between 75 and 110 rounds a minute from its 5/38s, versus the Sendai's 42 to 70 rounds a minute.

Fletcher: 6,069.8 lbs/minute maximum
Sendai: 5,866 lbs/minute maximum

Huh. Go Fletcher. Those numbers don't tell the whole story by any means, but they do show how little of a firepower advantage the Sendai has over the Fletcher, if she has one.

Any rate, this is a fight that probably favors the Sendai, since her size means she can probably take more hits, but it's a testament to just how good the Fletcher is that I'd buy the fight going either way.
 
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PAGDTenno said:
The Sendai-class had a significantly heavier broadside than a Fletcher, though with rate of fire and the significantly better metallurgy used to construct 5" Special Purpose Common shells compared to the Japanese 14cm Capped Common Mod 2 means that the Fletcher might actually outperform a Sendai in a gun duel. Which is hilarious and sad, since a Sendai displaces two and a half times as much as a Fletcher.

Can't be totally sure, since I can't find AP tables for the 14cm/50, but the Fletcher's 5/38 can punch through the 2.5" belt of a Sendai at about 10,000 yards, going by the table on Navweaps, and a bit of an educated guess.

Obviously, the Sendai has to simply hit the Fletcher, assuming Point Detonating HE is used, but 10,000 yards is an engagement range you could realistically see happening. And the Fletcher is pumping out anywhere between 75 and 110 rounds a minute from its 5/38s, versus the Sendai's 42 to 70 rounds a minute.

Fletcher: 6,069.8 lbs/minute maximum
Sendai: 5,866 lbs/minute maximum

Huh. Go Fletcher. Those numbers don't tell the whole story by any means, but they do show how little of a firepower advantage the Sendai has over the Fletcher, if she has one.

Any rate, this is a fight that probably favors the Sendai, since her size means she can probably take more hits, but it's a testament to just how good the Fletcher is that I'd buy the fight going either way.
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add to the fact that the fletcher has a better chance of hitting Sendai first... my money honestly is on the Fletcher.

Though the IJN Destroyer leaders are probably better off comparing themselves to US DD's rather than US DL's.
 
Dirtnap said:
Fletchers were DDs. Gearing and Sumner classes were our DDLs (and later radar pickets after the war)
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I was talking the Atlanta's...

You know the class who's four ships were worth at least two IJN DL's each no matter what class you pick, and whose class as a whole (56 gun broadside) is worth all the Tenryus (8), Sendais(18), and Agano's (24) combined with room left over for a Kuma or Nagara of your choosing.
 
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Slight point of order, Aganos mounted 6" guns and the rest mounted 140mm (roughly 5.5"). Sure its still probably less throw weight per minute than an Atlanta but the larger shells mean they will do more damage when they hit and Atlantas were already pretty overloaded (less reserve buoyancy)
 
Dirtnap said:
Slight point of order, Aganos mounted 6" guns and the rest mounted 140mm (roughly 5.5"). Sure its still probably less throw weight per minute than an Atlanta but the larger shells mean they will do more damage when they hit and Atlantas were already pretty overloaded (less reserve buoyancy)
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yes and no. While the 6 and 5.5 are bigger, the 5/38 actually had a comparable bursting charge.
as for the lack of buoyancy the greater metacentric height gave it a better chance of surviving damage than its IJN counterparts. Plus the fact that it had much better armor (made entirely out of STS, thicker belt and bulkheads than her IJN counterparts, actual turret armor rather than the splinter protection the Sendais and earlier had) means that the effects are a lot more even than shell size leads one to believe.
 
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