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Holding the Line (Changing Destiny Spinoff)

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The Ises if they are brought in, well they'll be slightly more problematic than the Kongou class because they have thicker armor. They are proper battleships and they have twelve goddamned 14in guns. But you're right, they'll likely use the Kongous since they are faster and probably have better crews.
 
Thorthemighty said:
The Ises if they are brought in, well they'll be slightly more problematic than the Kongou class because they have thicker armor. They are proper battleships and they have twelve goddamned 14in guns. But you're right, they'll likely use the Kongous since they are faster and probably have better crews.
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also the Ise's were only slightly better Fuso's and had a number of design problems themselves.
 
I'll probably write something up on Force Z (and Repulse specifically) when I get home. Maybe. Depending on how much I want to relax and play Zelda.

Also, maybe some more background or something.

For now, have cute CC:
 
CompassJimbo said:
Yes. There was no chance old Walker and Mahan would've been saved from their fates and assigned to the Asiatic Fleet.
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But how do the Butterflies affect the Interwar years, we don't know if they do or not. But something like this should cause some slight ripples going in either direction of the Space-Time continuum. But then again, I could be blowing smoke out of my ass, I am not a philosopher or whatever the term would be for theorizing on stuff like this.
 
Thorthemighty said:
But how do the Butterflies affect the Interwar years, we don't know if they do or not. But something like this should cause some slight ripples going in either direction of the Space-Time continuum. But then again, I could be blowing smoke out of my ass, I am not a philosopher or whatever the term would be for theorizing on stuff like this.
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The butterflies started flapping in 1940. You're blowing so much smoke out of your ass that your guts are probably on fire.
 
Righto...Force Z.

Now, assuming, that they end up in ABDA's area...well. Let's look at things this way.

1. Repulse and her effectiveness or lack thereof.

Repulse is plenty effective, to be quite honest, in this situation. Yes her armor is crap. But, honestly, so is the armor of anyone she is likely to fight here. If she's bullying cruisers, she's bullying cruisers. If she's bullying Kongou, she's bullying Kongou. Differences in layout and plate quality aside, Kongou-class ships and Repulse have basically the same armor. Repulse is slightly faster, but not by much. Repulse has better guns, but fewer of them.

The difference here comes down mostly to fire control systems. Repulse has, at bare minimum, radar FC fitted. It's an open question what that radar is tied into...there's a chance it's the old (and very crap) Dreyer Table. There's a chance it's a more modern system, but not the most modern she could have- we can say for sure she doesn't have the best. We can't say for sure that she doesn't have something better than a Dreyer. The thing is, though, that even if she has a Dreyer she's still got radar getting the range (the hardest part) pretty much right away. Maneuvering will play merry havoc, but she's still pretty well off for the age of the ship and the lack of Renown-style refit.

Against a Kongou, she may well be shooting better. I'm not familiar enough with Japanese ships to say for sure on that one. I'm sure someone else can correct me if I'm wrong :V

Regardless, Repulse is at least not totally blind and stumbling around when shooting. Maybe better, maybe worse, but not as bad as it could be. Her guns can certainly get through even Nagato's belt. A Kongou is mincemeat. And, frankly, it is highly unlikely Japan uses anything other than a Kongou or maybe an Ise here. They're not going to use Nagato or Mutsu. Those two are needed for the KANTAI KESSEN.

And for bullying cruisers or Kongous, Repulse is perfectly sufficient. She's fast enough, strong enough, and actually armored enough to do it. Planes are a problem though. As is her deck armor.

But...it's not like she'll ever be alone.


2. PoW

Yeah, what's already been said doesn't need repeating here. She's superior to anything in-theater unless the Japanese toss Yamato at the problem (which they won't). Even then she could give a good fight of it. Unlike Repulse, we can say that PoW has modern fire control. People tend towards underestimating her guns because they're relatively small caliber for a battleship. But those guns have very good penetration values, and will mulch anything the Japanese are liable to send at her. Her own armor is probably second only to Italian plate in actual quality, and ludicrously thick. Unlike Repulse, she's also got quite good deck armor.

PoW, if not sunk by aircraft, is the best BB in the area until American fast BBs show up. Torps are the real threat here.


3. Cruisers

Looking at 'number of guns' or 'thickness of armor' isn't a good measure here. American cruisers have very good guns, very good shells, and very good fire control. Houston, in particular, just came off a fairly major refit. She probably has modern fire control and is getting radar. She'll outshoot most anything, given the chance. Exeter has already proven herself against Graf Spee.

It's certainly not a case of the Japanese having a major edge.

And since I don't have time to do more, I'll leave it off there. I can answer questions tomorrow when I get out of the teaching if needed. Unless something major comes up before I sleep for the night.

Also:


People are still forgetting a rather large butterfly.
 
Oh yeah, Glorious survived here. I thought you were talking about Langley for a couple seconds, Sky. My bad.
 
Thorthemighty said:
Oh damn, we are forgetting about HMS Glorious but the question is, how long will she last before the Japanese bomb her into scrap? The Japanese Zero and Oscar fighters are superior to anything that the British have for carrier based fighters right now.
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Thor, have you forgotten the fustercluck that was Pearl Harbor? The IJNAS has been mostly gutted like a Thanksgiving turkey at this point. Japan is barely going to have enough skilled pilots as is, let/leave (pick one) alone for Zeros.
 
Thorthemighty said:
Oh damn, we are forgetting about HMS Glorious but the question is, how long will she last before the Japanese bomb her into scrap? The Japanese Zero and Oscar fighters are superior to anything that the British have for carrier based fighters right now.
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May not be Glorious herself. Just as likely is one of the armored carriers, with Glorious freeing one up to go east.
 
Couldn't repulse just piggy back off PoW admiral table like hood did at Denmark straight in OTL?
 
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Sir_Braazmiir said:
Thor, have you forgotten the fustercluck that was Pearl Harbor? The IJNAS has been mostly gutted like a Thanksgiving turkey at this point. Japan is barely going to have enough skilled pilots as is, let/leave (pick one) alone for Zeros.
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What about the Imperial Japanese Army Air Service? They sank Force Z after all OTL, so while they don't fly Zeroes, the Ki-43 and Ki-61 is a very lethal plane. Plus they have various bombers that can carry lethal torpedoes and unlike the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service, they still have a lot of their top notch pilots.
 
Thorthemighty said:
What about the Imperial Japanese Army Air Service? They sank Force Z after all OTL, so while they don't fly Zeroes, the Ki-43 and Ki-61 is a very lethal plane. Plus they have various bombers that can carry lethal torpedoes and unlike the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service, they still have a lot of their top notch pilots.
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Land-based bombers they may have been, but those G3M and G4M were Navy planes. And good luck getting those Army fighters to cooperate with the Navy on an antishipping strike.

Furthermore, the Ki-61 hasn't been introduced yet and the Ki-43 is basically the Zero, just with more maneuverability and less armament. Which means that if the pilots can get the hang of its characteristics its going to be just as outmatched as the Zero itself was.
 
I didn't know that the G3M and G4M were Navy Planes, I thought they were also used by the IJAAS. As for the Ki-43 I will grant that, but there are still a number of experienced pilots flying those things, but then again what about the AVG aka The Flying Tigers, are those active right now? Because if they are, then they can just ask for information on the Ki-43.
 
Thorthemighty said:
I didn't know that the G3M and G4M were Navy Planes, I thought they were also used by the IJAAS. As for the Ki-43 I will grant that, but there are still a number of experienced pilots flying those things, but then again what about the AVG aka The Flying Tigers, are those active right now? Because if they are, then they can just ask for information on the Ki-43.
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They haven't seen combat yet, though at this point it's only a matter of time before they do.
 
The IJA and IJN were so dysfunctional towards and held such animus against the other it was insane. For example, the IJN came up with their own nightfighter rather than order planes that the Army used. They barely if at all even tried to coordinate air defense grids once the bombing of the main islands became regular.
 
Short term the phyrric victory at Pearl just means that the carrier force is going to be on the defensive until they can rebuild their wings, but they won't have any effect on the units already in theater, at least until they start removing pilots from the ground based naval squadrons (many of the naval pilots were carrier certified). Even after a serious personnel shift air raids will be a serious threat, regardless of the model the japanese dive and torpedo bombers are operating with better doctrine that the british and they can launch more fighters per attack than Glorious full wing.

Frankly the best tactic I can see for the ABDACOM is to lure the japanese ships outside the range of their ground based planes with a Taranto style night attack aimed at a airfield (even if it don't cripple the japanese ability to retaliate it will rattle them) and then ambush the pursuing force with the surface fleet, of course that is easier said than done, especially since they lack the time to plan, any facility to train and they ignore just how long legged are japanese planes so their security margin for escaping under the cover of darkness will be quite reduced, not to mention the fact that the IJN are the best at nightfighting at this point of the war and the allies are ignorant of this little fact.
 
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