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Hell is other angels
- Thread starter Hiver
- Start date
esotericist
A Weary Hand
- Location
- Lacey, WA
Timetable is important. Lasciel's Shadow was in Harry's head for a lot longer than it's been in this story before he decided Lash was her name.
There's also a lot of parallels: Similar grades of obstinance, similar tendencies to pick a plan and run with it without stopping to ask if there's a path that involves breaking fewer walls with his forehead...
Difference is, even with the Doomslayer, this Hiver is a lot more helpless than Harry ever was in canon. I think that distinction is very critical: He genuinely needs Taziel in a way Harry only once needed Lash.
I have to figure the frustration of Hiver's repeated insistence on nearly-dying has to have been weighing on Taziel... and remember, she's running on human meat right now. She can have a subconscious.
On some level, she probably knows that a faux-redemption is available to her, even if she isn't thinking about it.
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shadowace2400
Planeswalker Extraordinaire
- Location
- Texas
oh dear lord he's gonna have a brain baby someday isn't he.
- Location
- Adelaide, Australia
Technically it doesn't really matter how much influence she gains, as long as he never touches the coin again. After all what's in his head isn't a fallen angel, just an image of one.
Admittedly one with a lot of tricks up its sleeves.
Having said that I'm kinda surprised that he hasn't come to the conclusion that whoever stuck him in this situation just might have had the power to make Taziel exactly what she claimed to be.
But then again I'm constantly surprised how few SI's realise they only have their one asshole selves to blame for what's happening to them. Literally.
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I have seen this mention of "Corrupting Taziel's shadow" a few times but cannot understand what it is based on. What actions does the protagonist take that could in any way be interpreted as encouraging this "corruption". When I look at how the protagonist of this story is interacting with Taziel I see a generally adversarial relationship in which he treats her terribly while she gradually wears down his dislike of her by maintaining a pattern of consistently useful assistance and pleasant conversation. Why would this "corrupt" Taziel?
esotericist
A Weary Hand
- Location
- Lacey, WA
In Dresden Files canon, we're given the impression the Shadow of a fallen is very, very seldom working without 'refreshes' from the coin for very long. So what we have here is a single, one-time snapshot of Taziel who is running on human brain matter, which implies a lot of funny little side effects.
The availability of free will. The capacity to form social bonds, particularly with the one being they can directly communicate with.
Stockholm Syndrome is a thing, even if you know you're at risk of it.
And even with Hiver's continued treatment of Taziel as a 'thing', he has been adjusting her perspective of her slightly over time. Yes, he's still holding to the terms of his ultimatum, but there's signs of a small amount of fondness for the obedient slave. That matters.
- Location
- hell
The thing that gets me is why do we all assume that the Taz in his head is anything like the Taz in the coin? It's a construct. I don't see why it would need to be anything like the real Taziel. We know for a fact that Lash deviated from the original Lasciel from the moment of implantation, and then continued to deviate further until she died. We only have teh constructs word that it is a reflection of the fallen that created it. Which could just be pre-programmed knowledge with no basis in fact. It just has to be able to convince someone to take up the coin. It's one of the many, many reasons that his complete obstinacy against taking the coin is a good idea.
No brain baby unless Taz heroically sacrifices herself, leaving behind remnants to grow into a spiritual entity. Or suicides out of frustration.
No brain baby unless Taz heroically sacrifices herself, leaving behind remnants to grow into a spiritual entity. Or suicides out of frustration.
..... Why must there be only a single like per chapter? Have this instead!
shadowace2400
Planeswalker Extraordinaire
- Location
- Texas
oh thank god, he seems way too young for a kid. also would probably screw up story progression and stuff maybe I don't know
I don't think it matters enough to change the long term goals of Taziel or encourage her to adopt a moral code that would be acceptable to Hiver. I also cannot help but think that the demonstrated "Fondness" is much more likely to be a part of her plan to influence the protagonist rather than an actual indication of genuine emotions. I also believe that the logical consequence of repeatedly treating someone to inspire feeling of dislike and contempt.
A key piece of information that we should remember is that in addition to his unidentified power of "Naming" Dresden also treated Lash much better than the protagonist of this fanfic treats Taziel's shadow. I cannot help but compare the nicknames of "Hell Bitch" and 'Lash" when I imagine how each of these shadows views their respective hosts.
At the minimum we know that the Fallen are extremely intelligent magical beings possessing unfathomable power and would be heavily incentivized to create constructs that behave in a manner that aids their long term. Given this information it seems more than reasonable to assume that the constructs would behave in a manner that serves the interests of the Fallen who created them in all but the most unusual situations. I believe that this is supported by the Canon scene where Nicodemus acts on the assumption that the construct possessing Dresden would paralyze Dresden even though this would almost certainly lead to its destruction when Dresden is subsequently killed.
A key piece of information that we should remember is that in addition to his unidentified power of "Naming" Dresden also treated Lash much better than the protagonist of this fanfic treats Taziel's shadow. I cannot help but compare the nicknames of "Hell Bitch" and 'Lash" when I imagine how each of these shadows views their respective hosts.
At the minimum we know that the Fallen are extremely intelligent magical beings possessing unfathomable power and would be heavily incentivized to create constructs that behave in a manner that aids their long term. Given this information it seems more than reasonable to assume that the constructs would behave in a manner that serves the interests of the Fallen who created them in all but the most unusual situations. I believe that this is supported by the Canon scene where Nicodemus acts on the assumption that the construct possessing Dresden would paralyze Dresden even though this would almost certainly lead to its destruction when Dresden is subsequently killed.
Mizu
Software Developer
- Location
- Victoria, Australia
saying something, but
No. No. No.
his demon's arse.
my soul?
some sort of
I would totally use the Final Fantasy words for elemental spells if I ever became a magic caster. The media's so popular I'd be hard-pressed to imagine another name beyond 'fireball' for flame spells.
This is looking more and more like a trap gone wrong (for spike that is). Given that spike has been looking for saint for a while and that the 'oh shit' demons are explicitly noted as intelligent it's likely they were intimidated/hired to hunt our fearless SI. They then kill his co-workers and take him to spike. Cue things going completely of the rails when spike gets dry roasted.
Heaven Canceler
I would like to have a cool title.
- Location
- Austria
Wasn't that pretty stupid actually? Wouldn't his Vampire self-remember the coin and then proceed to pick it up sometime down the road? Even if he doesn't get the coin, Taz would have just teleported her coin to some public place to find a new host.
This is an assumption. One supported by only meta-knowledge from the Dresden Files series. Sure, it is one we have to be careful about, but it isn't a guarantee. Angels fall for all sorts of reasons like for example having kids with humans after falling in Love.
TheLurker
Random Omnipotent Lazy-As-Fuck Being
- Location
- The space beyond the stars
no. As mentioned in the chapter by taz, if he gets his soul nommed, she dies too.
Heaven Canceler
I would like to have a cool title.
- Location
- Austria
The Shadow of Tasziel dies, I meant he would pick up the coin with the original later.
Malbutorius
C'est le bien qui fait mal
Vamp Him would also likely get dominated like a puppet on strings as he's a demon inhabiting a mortal body. Or something. I dunno what happens if Taziel is picked up something without a soul.
- Location
- Vestiges of Yesterday
Yes, yes. Give a benefit of doubt to the ancient soul-stealing monster, sure. I am certain, she will tell you a very interesting tale of tragic circumstances, which had led it to this cursed path. About the best intentions, archaic laws, feelings scorned, misunderstandings and more, much more. It will be a very earnest tale, full of emotion and easily proved facts. After all, the Fallen recited it dozens of times on the course of long millenias.
But here is the thing. You and I are not experienced Wizards, neither is, unfortunately, Hiver. We won't be able to tell the truth from elaborate lies. Include there the proved abilities of the Fallen to create absolutely realistic illusions (not Wizards, remember?), to change our emotional response to certain stimuli, to be plain and simple more ruthless and cold-headed then us - and you have a very unpleasant situation.
If you are willing to risk your one and only soul for the tiny possibility of the Evil Manipulative Monster being completely different from source material... I kind of don't. It's unreasonable.
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Heaven Canceler
I would like to have a cool title.
- Location
- Austria
I think I would believe her unless I had proof otherwise. Maybe I am naive but I would rather try to believe into the good within people.
Also, let's be honest. If she wants to kill Hiver, she could do it anytime. She could just make an illusion that gets him run over by a car, or mistake a vampire for a normal guy. At least with Harry Lash had the excuse of him being really powerful and having a great affinity with him so he was a good price to work towards, but here.... it just seems strange.
Why keep him? He has very little magic talent by her words, treates her absolutely shitty and now she saved him rather than letting him die and let the Vampire take the coin? For what?
You could argue that she is slowly grindng him down with niceness... but she could do much better with some random guy who has no clue about anything. Even if she got caught by the "Big Good" and they put her into a vault, I expect her to escape pretty quickly.
Also, let's be honest. If she wants to kill Hiver, she could do it anytime. She could just make an illusion that gets him run over by a car, or mistake a vampire for a normal guy. At least with Harry Lash had the excuse of him being really powerful and having a great affinity with him so he was a good price to work towards, but here.... it just seems strange.
Why keep him? He has very little magic talent by her words, treates her absolutely shitty and now she saved him rather than letting him die and let the Vampire take the coin? For what?
You could argue that she is slowly grindng him down with niceness... but she could do much better with some random guy who has no clue about anything. Even if she got caught by the "Big Good" and they put her into a vault, I expect her to escape pretty quickly.
- Location
- Vestiges of Yesterday
And I don't. The good guys aren't obliged to be incompetent morons, you know?
You seem to be under impression that rough treatment can hurt the Fallen's feelings or something. Or that her patience will wear off much earlier than Hiver will prove to be an amusement. Or that you and I can comprehend the intricacies of eternal being's motivation. But I can't blame you for desire to believe in good within the immortal being from beyond space and time. Honestly, I want to do that too. But all evidence is against such notion.
I will poison my soul with distrust for the sake of definitely not eating babies alive in a close future.
Vox De Harlequin
Consequences are for other people
- Location
- Hyalean Theoric World
Pretty much this.
Taziel has no incentive to keep a host like Hiver around, and it would be laughably easy for her to kill him and move on to a better host.
The only advantage he had was his meta-knowledge, and Taziel already has that since the moment he touched the coin.
You (no not you HC) say that she is an EVIL!!! master manipulator that only does things for her own gain, but if that is indeed the case, her actions thus far have been nonsensical.
EDIT:
For the record, I'm probably one of the most distrustful people anybody is likely to meet.
I simply expect competency from any being with that kind of power.
It helps, I guess, that I don't believe in any sort of absolute concept of good and evil beyond the subjective.
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Vox De Harlequin
Consequences are for other people
- Location
- Hyalean Theoric World
The whole discussion about the boxing an AI has always seemed somewhat silly to me.
The only reason the AI would turn out aggressively malevolent is if destructively egomaniacal Stupid!Evil.
Any being which seeks absolute power, as appears to be the general assumption, has to put up at least a veneer of benevolence in order to avoid being worked against effectively.
And honestly all I expect from anyone is that surface level benevolence...
Heaven Canceler
I would like to have a cool title.
- Location
- Austria
The "good guys" also don't need to have the skills to actually contain her for any reasonable amount of time. See, these guys aren't Servants of the White God or the dude himself who have specific counters to her. They are extradimensional Invaders who control earth and don't want anyone else on their turf. By all accounts, they are likely less capable of keeping her under lock than the Church in Dresden Files with all their divine protection. (And from the Wiki, even from there she can flee? Happens in Skin Games from what I found) Basically, unless a big G god pops up and contains her, it is pretty much impossible to keep her under lock for any length of time.
If I am honest, if she is evil he is doomed short of author fiat or plot-twists removing her. She has decades of time to slowly grind him down, (Even if it is stupid and inefficient) is basically impossible to destroy or otherwise deal with. Smarter than him, can read his mind and manipulate his senses at will. It is only a question of time until he gives in. And if he dies before she breaks him down? Well, she just moves on to someone else.
Someone else mentioned that the best way to deal with her would probably to make a deal at the very start when you are still relatively uncorrupted. Try to find out what the Angel wants and make a deal that fulfils their goal with a minimum of collateral damage.
- Location
- Vestiges of Yesterday
You expect competency from an immortal being with knowledge from beyond the human ken.
Yet you believe that, if it's truly evil and enormously competent, you have already found out it's intentions and plans enough to judge it. Unfavorably.
Maybe you should think again.
Edit. Come to think of it, what do we really know of Hiver's situation? What do we know about the circumstances of his arrival, the true goals behind such interruption to the decidedly planned story?
For all we know, Hiver was implanted with some Shounen Power of Friendship deep inside his soul, heh. That would be disappointing but not really uncommon for both universes.
If the narrator is the "real" Hiver, that is.
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