See, this nonsense is what I'm talking about.
Hades is moral compared to the rest of the Greek Gods
- Thread starter killer565
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Nyarlathotep
So the world might be mended
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- The Nexus
Hestia was bestia, yes. Very nice goddess, wanted everyone to get along.
Hephaestus wass a pretty cool dude, too. As mentioned above, he was spurned for his ugliness and awkwardness, and was kind of a loner. However, he was rather smart, extremely hardworking, and loyal. Also relatively patient with Aphrodite's infidelity, which if I remember certain stories, endeared him to her, though their marriage was obviously not the most serene.
Apollo was a nice fellow, particularly towards children. Athena was quite good for a war deity, but she was pretty cruel to Medusa and Arachne (admittedly, those events were Roman additions to their stories).
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OK, but them...Why are they such dicks to EACH OTHER?
Zeus was raised by a goat and his insanely-aggro grandmother to be a weapon against his father, while his siblings grew up in their father's stomach. It's not surprising they're a dysfunctional bunch.
Also, y'know, families bicker.
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Vindictus
XENO
- Location
- Texas
> It's not surprising that a person who was raised by his crazy grandma and a goat would be dysfunctional
> Gods aren't people, and shouldn't be treated as if they were
Hestia turned out just fine. And both Demeter and Hades were fairly stable. Hestia has no major myths, and Demeter only has two black marks.
Its all a creation of superstitious men. They did not create us.
This isn't really a useful perspective save for the purpose of dunking on religion and revealing a lack of personal understanding.
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- Athens, Greece
I love Athena.
I'm not sure I have quite the words to explain it, but far more than any other Greek god or goddess, she feels to me to be a goddess of and for humanity.
Apollo by contrast had oracular wisdom, but the wisdom that Athena is shown of having and providing is not the 'divine insight' style of prophecy, it's the insight of simple human reasoning. She tells Telemachus, "Look, the suitors of Penelope clearly want you dead, they want Odysseus to have no heir. So they're likely to have set up an ambush for you, and you know the geography, they'll have probably set it up in these particular straits. You should make sure to pass it in the middle of the night, far from either shore, so that they don't see you."
Hephaestus creates robotic tables that bring drink and food to the gods -- yes he also occasionally makes weapons for human heroes (at the request of the gods, e.g Thetis for her son Achilles), but he has no real use for humanity, he'd be just as happy smithing for the gods alone. But it's Athena that creates the bridle and the yoke, so that humans can tame animals (gods don't need bridles). It's she who invents the plow so that humans can farm the earth (gods don't need plows).
Other gods spawn human-eating monsters, like Poseidon's son Polyphemus, and yeah occasionally slay them as well (though usually only when they oppose the gods in some way). Athena is repeatedly the patron of human heroes that slay monsters. Perseus, Bellerophon, Hercules, Odysseus, they all have her assistance. No other god or goddess has been so active in this respect of going out of her way to assist human heroes.
I'm not sure I have quite the words to explain it, but far more than any other Greek god or goddess, she feels to me to be a goddess of and for humanity.
Apollo by contrast had oracular wisdom, but the wisdom that Athena is shown of having and providing is not the 'divine insight' style of prophecy, it's the insight of simple human reasoning. She tells Telemachus, "Look, the suitors of Penelope clearly want you dead, they want Odysseus to have no heir. So they're likely to have set up an ambush for you, and you know the geography, they'll have probably set it up in these particular straits. You should make sure to pass it in the middle of the night, far from either shore, so that they don't see you."
Hephaestus creates robotic tables that bring drink and food to the gods -- yes he also occasionally makes weapons for human heroes (at the request of the gods, e.g Thetis for her son Achilles), but he has no real use for humanity, he'd be just as happy smithing for the gods alone. But it's Athena that creates the bridle and the yoke, so that humans can tame animals (gods don't need bridles). It's she who invents the plow so that humans can farm the earth (gods don't need plows).
Other gods spawn human-eating monsters, like Poseidon's son Polyphemus, and yeah occasionally slay them as well (though usually only when they oppose the gods in some way). Athena is repeatedly the patron of human heroes that slay monsters. Perseus, Bellerophon, Hercules, Odysseus, they all have her assistance. No other god or goddess has been so active in this respect of going out of her way to assist human heroes.
Vyslanté
The self is a prison
- Location
- European Union
Except, of course, the whole Medusa thing...
Medusa wasn't a hero, tho. She doesn't disprove that example at all
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- Athens, Greece
That's really an annoying intrusion by a much later *Roman* author, Ovid. There was no hint Athena caused Medusa to exist before Ovid's version. That version also isn't compatible with other versions of the story, since Medusa's sisters (her fellow Gorgons) were also snake-haired.
There are a lot of versions.
The Greek Gods are not morale. They are imperfect as we are.
- Location
- Athens, Greece
The point I'm making isn't whether Athena is more moral than the other gods, and certainly it's not to present her as morally perfect. My point (which the Medusa thing distracted from) is that she seems far more invested in humanity than the other gods.
Demeter, Poseidon, Apollo, Hepheastus, everyone would be pretty much fine without humanity around. Athena would not be: Her domain is humanity. She wouldn't be fine without humanity, same way that Poseidon wouldn't be fine without the sea, or Hepheastus without his forge.
Not all of them are immoral. Hades and a few others are alright.
This repeated refrain throughout the thread that Hades was the sole exclusively moral Olympian is incredibly weird. Hades has fairly few surviving myths, I'm partial to him as a character too insomuch as he has any characterization, and he's not the literal Christian devil, but it's pretty damn absurd to just paper over how the one well known myth he features in has him as a kidnapper and rapist who is personally responsible for the existence of Winter. Is he better than his brothers in a strictly relative sense? Sure, but that isn't exactly a high bar to clear. Is he, as depicted in surviving classical Greek texts, 'moral' by anything resembling a modern Western standard? Depends on where you fall on the morality of rape, starvation and frostbite, I guess. Alternate interpretations where Persephone went willingly are all well and good - though the specific argument for it in this thread is pretty damn problematic - but at that point you're creating your own headcanon and we aren't discussing the same character at all. I can interpret every sexual encounter Zeus had as either consensual or pro-cthonic propaganda but that doesn't change that in the source material we have, he's a serial rapist whose sister married him because he held her downa and penetrated her by force and she was obligated to in order to preserve her honor.
As for the smaller argument about the legitimacy of Ovid and Romans as a whole as sources about how contemporaries actually viewed the gods and how the classical Greeks were different...has anyone making that claim actually read much classical Greek literature? Euripides seemed to view the Olympians pretty similarly to the way we do today. "The gods are self-absorbed, monstrous children" was a minority view then, but it was one people were evidently comfortable expressing in public twenty four hundred years ago.
As for the smaller argument about the legitimacy of Ovid and Romans as a whole as sources about how contemporaries actually viewed the gods and how the classical Greeks were different...has anyone making that claim actually read much classical Greek literature? Euripides seemed to view the Olympians pretty similarly to the way we do today. "The gods are self-absorbed, monstrous children" was a minority view then, but it was one people were evidently comfortable expressing in public twenty four hundred years ago.
Toss in- 1) Hades asked her dad, Zeus, first, and this was entirely in custom of the time, 2) she did willingly eat the seeds, and 3) all further reports of the relationship put it as remarkably functional- and I'm not even tagging in 'by greek god standards' because that's way too low a bar. Hades listens to her, they get along, heck, sometimes Persephone was the more prominent of the two.
The story of the initial taking was pretty much entirely from Demeter's POV and was basically a story made for 'ok, mothers, you know how your daughter moves out when she gets married and it sucks? Your emotions are valid and justified, here's a god feeling it too only bigger with the actual underworld because GOD, but at the same time the story's about how we still need your role in society and that's important too.'
Of some note, often Hades wasn't actually god of death so much as 'god of where the dead are', with Thanatos being the god who does the actual 'bring the spirits down,' thing. Though that can vary.
The Gods don't entirely decide how things work, they often just run it, Hades didn't make Hades nor can he magically make death work different- and hades (location) is not exactly the worst of places to begin with, though how much varies with depictions. In some versions, it's not all that hard to get into Elysium, which is downright nice.
The Gods are vital in keeping the world running and what we've seen is when they don't/can't, things get very bad- Sisyphus imprisoning Thanatos or Hades (depending on version) got rid of death and it was Not GoodTM (imagine being fatally stabbed, only you just need to lie there where you fall forever). So they are important and much better than the alternative, but Hades can't wave his hand and change how things are.
Hestia doesn't have as clear characterization in general or show up in many myths in an active role. She may be the nicest major goddess by default but it's more because we don't know a ton about her comparatively, unlike Hades who's in a lot of stories and is pretty chill. It is in her favor that she apparently kept out of most of the god family squabbles.
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She's mostly pretty cool but has been known to get her murder on.
Like if her mom, Leto, wants someone dead/is slighted, Artemis will totally arrow them:
Also, it's best not to catch her naked, on purpose or by accident.
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Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
Well, yeah. If you gotta treat your momma right. If she wants you to kill someone for you you do it.
That was totally baller.
...
Oh, I'm sorry. Am I supposed to believe that was the one man in all of Greek Mythology who totally has the best of intentions when it comes to women?
Some might argue there are non-murder solutions.
On at least one occasion, Artemis didn't think so. So she just turned him into a girl, which is... not great.
- Location
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I think its worth pointing out that the other gods are either much broader or much more specific in their primary aspect.
You have the gods of natural phenomena like the sun, forests, etc (fittingly, the three head honchos of the pantheon govern the sky, the earth, and the sea, between them encompassing the entire world as the ancient Greeks knew it). Then you have the gods of specific activities, like smithing, housekeeping, war, etc. They're either much bigger than us, or much smaller than us.
Athena is wisdom. Wisdom is important to every aspect of human life, but she's also not tied to any natural phenomenon. She's always relevant to us, and we're always relevant to her.
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What cracks me up about that myth is one version that only has the Queen's sons being killed, only for her to cry out that at least she still has seven daughters, all of whom were totally pretty and more awesome than Artemis. There are far worse mothers in mythology, but not quite so many who pulled such a bone-headed move.
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- La Ballena City Raft
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- He/Him
Because no one makes films about Zeus being a dick
I just came across this thread, so I figured I'd try and comment a bit on some of the things here that haven't come up.
One version of the tale of Tiresias has him be blinded by accidentally walking in on his mother and Athena bathing in a spring (in this version, poor Tiresias was just a child walking the family dogs when it happened). Athena blinds him, gets chewed out by Tiresias' mother Chariclo, and then says that she can't restore his vision, but she can give him some blessings, like a staff that allows him to walk as easily as if he still had his vision, and the ability to interpret the omens spoken of in birdsong.
But I do not recall any tellings of Greek myths where Hephaestus and Aphrodite were happy with the marriage (Aphrodite flat-out didn't like Hephaestus, and Hephaestus was understandably upset with her cheating on him).
... and the semen-soaked cotton landing on the ground below and managing to impregnate Gaea, who was not happy with the situation (the gods of Olympus keep bringing ruin onto every child she births that she gets attached to, so she refuses to raise, bond with, and then be forced to mourn another one once the gods ruin this one's life too. So since it was Athena's littering that got Gaea pregnant, Athena is going to take responsibility and tend to the baby, dammit!
And so begins the story of King Erechthonius of Athens.
And I've seen some versions of the whole legend that have it be that Poseidon tricked Athena and Hephaestus to set the whole thing off in the first place: Hephaestus was making some new armaments for Athena, and Poseidon lead Athena to believe that her thanks and gratitude was all Hephaestus wanted in payment, while telling Hephaestus that Athena was willing to pay him 'with her love'.
Hestia made an arrangement that any sacrifice to the gods had to have an initial share of the offering be devoted to her before the others.
She swore an oath of virginity to avoid a fight when Poseidon and Apollo were both trying get her to marry one of them.
And she was almost raped by Priapus, but the attempt was foiled when another deity's donkey steed started braying and woke her up before Priapus could get his oversized prick into place (there's another version of the story where Priapus was targeting a nymph, Lotis, but it ends more-or-less the same way).
Of course, Ixion was foolish enough to boast of having banged Hera, so that is when Zeus brings down divine punishment on him.
Eh, Hephaestus had his personality flaws too. Overall, to my knowledge, he was probably about a shade worse than Hades by modern morals, but still well above Zeus or Poseidon.
There's a thing that's mentioned in one myth regarding not just this incident, but also some others similar to it. Apparently when Cronos was the Big God on Olympus, he put into place a divine law that punishment will befall any mortal who looks upon a deity naked without permission, and set the Furies to enforce it.
One version of the tale of Tiresias has him be blinded by accidentally walking in on his mother and Athena bathing in a spring (in this version, poor Tiresias was just a child walking the family dogs when it happened). Athena blinds him, gets chewed out by Tiresias' mother Chariclo, and then says that she can't restore his vision, but she can give him some blessings, like a staff that allows him to walk as easily as if he still had his vision, and the ability to interpret the omens spoken of in birdsong.
To my awareness, the family laughing instead of being justly angered was not the intended reaction (incidentally, IIRC, Aphrodite took the whole thing in stride, Ares was ashamed of the situation).
Not that it stopped Zeus. But then again...
... There's one tale where he eventually gets divorced from her and marries one of the Graces.
But I do not recall any tellings of Greek myths where Hephaestus and Aphrodite were happy with the marriage (Aphrodite flat-out didn't like Hephaestus, and Hephaestus was understandably upset with her cheating on him).
I've seen discussion on the subject that suggests that the 'magic girdle' may have been a misinterpretation, given some texts about it describe it as being removed 'from Aphrodite's breasts' when she loans it to Hera, it may have been more of a golden breast-band. And that Hera wanted it because it would emphasize her boobs better to draw Zeus' attention away from his other lovers, rather than because it had magic seduction powers.
During the struggle, all the writhing and twisting against one another while Hephaestus was trying to get into position lead to him ejaculating before he could get it in. Cue Athena managing to push Hephaestus away, wiping the mess he left on her legs up with some cotton, and chucking it off of Olympus...
... and the semen-soaked cotton landing on the ground below and managing to impregnate Gaea, who was not happy with the situation (the gods of Olympus keep bringing ruin onto every child she births that she gets attached to, so she refuses to raise, bond with, and then be forced to mourn another one once the gods ruin this one's life too. So since it was Athena's littering that got Gaea pregnant, Athena is going to take responsibility and tend to the baby, dammit!
And so begins the story of King Erechthonius of Athens.
And I've seen some versions of the whole legend that have it be that Poseidon tricked Athena and Hephaestus to set the whole thing off in the first place: Hephaestus was making some new armaments for Athena, and Poseidon lead Athena to believe that her thanks and gratitude was all Hephaestus wanted in payment, while telling Hephaestus that Athena was willing to pay him 'with her love'.
To my knowledge...
Hestia made an arrangement that any sacrifice to the gods had to have an initial share of the offering be devoted to her before the others.
She swore an oath of virginity to avoid a fight when Poseidon and Apollo were both trying get her to marry one of them.
And she was almost raped by Priapus, but the attempt was foiled when another deity's donkey steed started braying and woke her up before Priapus could get his oversized prick into place (there's another version of the story where Priapus was targeting a nymph, Lotis, but it ends more-or-less the same way).
A bit of context: Zeus had previously seduced Ixion's wife (Zeus' form of the day: a stallion), and may or may not have impregnated her in the process. And even then, after Zeus and Hera trick Ixion into sleeping with a cloud nymph disguised as Hera instead, Zeus is initially willing to let Ixion go with the false belief that they were now even, but Hera was worried that Ixion would horribly tarnish her reputation if he went boasting about his "success".
Of course, Ixion was foolish enough to boast of having banged Hera, so that is when Zeus brings down divine punishment on him.
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