Hades is moral compared to the rest of the Greek Gods

Hades is still complicit in the unjust system that is the greek afterlife and greater divinity and thus evil by inaction. If he did more to stop Zeus from being a huge cunt maybe he'd have a leg to stand on but as it is he just stood around and watched.
 
Anyone know any times Hephaestus was a bastard?

I don't know all that many stories about him, so the worst I know off the top of my head is the time he was being cheated on so he made a trap that grabbed those involved, then had the family come around to look and laugh before letting them go.
Stories about him I know:

-He had no biological father
-His mother was appalled at his ugliness/crippleness and threw him off Mt. Olympus at birth.
-He was a mama's boy, and once intervened in one of Zeus and Hera's fights, resulting in his being thrown off Mt. Olympus and becoming ugly and crippled.
-Hera order Aphrodite to marry him, because she was worried if she didn't get married quickly, Zeus would sleep with her.
-He made Aphrodite magic jewellery that enhanced her existing seductive wiles to full-on irresistible mind control levels.
-He built a bunch of beautiful women out of gold and silver to serve as assistants in his forge in Olympus.
-He also had another forge where he worked with the Cyclopes.
-He cracked open Zeus' head, allowing Athena to be born.
-He tried to rape Athena, but she did...something so that instead he impregnated his great-grandmother Gaea.
-The story you mention.
 
Hades is still complicit in the unjust system that is the greek afterlife and greater divinity and thus evil by inaction. If he did more to stop Zeus from being a huge cunt maybe he'd have a leg to stand on but as it is he just stood around and watched.

While I agree, especially in regards to his own domain, there's that one story where in the Gods basically try to emotionally support Hera as a family because Zeus won't stop and all of them together cannot stop him and they all know it. I don't remember if Hades was there but I think there was something in there like if every single God tried to fight him at once he'd casually toss them all like nothing. Even the Gods as a whole think he's a monster in some ways and they can't meaningfully act on that in their view.

Hades should do more lowkey though to actually be moral even if he can't act outright. Distract his brothers Zeus and Poseidon from their would be victims, protect the victims from further torment by Hera, etc.
 
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I don't remember if Hades was there but I think there was something in there like if every single God tried to fight him at once he'd casually toss them all like nothing
Hear me, all you gods and all goddesses too,
as I proclaim what the heart inside me urges.
Let no lovely goddess—and no god either—
try to fight against my strict decree.
All submit to it now, so all the more quickly
I can bring this violent business to an end.
And any god I catch, breaking ranks with us,
eager to go and help the Trojans or Achaeans—
back he comes to Olympus, whipped by the lightning,
eternally disgraced. Or I will snatch and hurl him
down to the murk of Tartarus half the world away,
the deepest gulf that yawns beneath the ground,
there where the iron gates and brazen threshold loom,
as far below the House of Death as the sky rides over earth—
then he will know how far my power tops all other gods'

Come, try me, immortals, so all of you can learn.
Hang a great golden cable down from the heavens,
lay hold of it, all you gods, all goddesses too:
you can never drag me down from sky to earth,
not Zeus, the highest, mightiest king of kings,
not even if you worked yourselves to death.
But whenever I'd set my mind to drag you up,
in deadly earnest, I'd hoist you all with ease,
you and the earth, you and the sea, all together,
then loop that golden cable round a horn of Olympus,
bind it fast and leave the whole world dangling in mid-air—

That is how far I tower over the gods, I tower over men.
The Iliad book 8, Fagles translation.
 
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In a way questions like these are the reason people get smote.
 
I would still trust Athena as far as she can throw me. I can't be caught doing a hubris if I have no self-esteem, and Diomedes did pretty well for himself by being one of her champions/mortal besties/whatever the proper term is.
 
... Wait, isn't Hestia the nicest of the Greek Gods?
Probably, the only story I know of about her is the one where she let Dionysus have her throne, cuz she was content to sit by the fire. But AIUI, that's not an actual myth ever recounted by any Classical source, it's basically a scholarly fanon to explain the confusion over whether or not she or Dionysus are counted among the Twelve Olympians.

Though, I'm sure the Romans had stories about Vesta inflicting horrible punishments on people who messed with her Vestals and/or when one of her Virgins violated their oaths, but I don't know any specifics, and I don't think that really counts. Cuz while Roman Mythology eventually morphed into Greek Mythology with different names, there are some things that stuck around, and they aren't quite the same.
 
And did Artemis ever do anybody wrong? Athena? And the worst Aphrodite did was cheat once. A lot of female gods weren't rapists like their male counterparts.

IIRC Artemis arranged for Aura to be raped by Dionysus as punishment for insulting her and saying she wasn't a virgin like she was. And don't some versions of the myth have Aphrodite forcing Helen to go with Paris and have sex with him?
 
IIRC Artemis arranged for Aura to be raped by Dionysus as punishment for insulting her and saying she wasn't a virgin like she was. And don't some versions of the myth have Aphrodite forcing Helen to go with Paris and have sex with him?
Not heard of the former, but it wouldn't surprise me. And yeah, in some versions, Aphrodite had Eros arrow Helen. Side note: there's also the whole thing with poor Pysche to add against Aphrodite. Also poor Hipolytus.

(I grant that I have a harder time arguing that Aphrodite was justified in her bad actions, mostly because I think we are supposed to read them AS bad actions, again because AIUI the Ancient Greeks thought romantic love was actually a form of madness, and thus something to be avoided rather than sought*)

WRT Artemis, there are some versions where she kills Orion because he boasts of being a better hunter than her, but that's only one version** and as I've argued before that sorta thing is way more justified than you'd think.

*Which, TBF, it does routinely cause people to do really stupid and/or horrible things and create a great deal of suffering, so is an understandable view.

**Others include her killing him by accident, because Apollo tricked her, because he tried to rape her, or because he raped one of her huntresses. Of course, in quite a few takes she either has only a tangential or no part in his death.
 
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In a way questions like these are the reason people get smote.
Sorry, I missed you before.

It's important to also keep in mind that, while we all love the stories, they don't tell the whole, uh, story. Like, keep in mind, Zeus isn't just a womanizing creep, he's the reason order and justice exist. And while it can suck for the people directly involved*, even his womanizing has a positive benefit in creating heroes.

And apropos of your comment, Zeus is sometimes noted as being really reluctant to smite people. And he has plenty of "pet the dog" moments; he allowes Kronos to dwell in the Elysian Fields**, Hercules was permitted to free Prometheus, and he even forgave Ixion the Kin-Slayer (of course Ixion repaid him by trying to rape Hera).

*Including Zeus; indications are he does actually care about the women he seduces and the offspring thus produced on some level, which is why Hera torments them, because it's the only way she can hurt him.

**Which make all those stories where he's the Big Bad just itching to revenge himself on his children kinda silly.
 
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Sorry, I missed you before.

It's important to also keep in mind that, while we all love the stories, they don't tell the whole story. Like, keep in mind, Zeus isn't just a womanizing creep, he's the reason order and justice exist. And while it can suck for the people directly involved*, even his womanizing has a positive benefit in creating heroes.

And apropos of your comment, Zeus is sometimes noted as being really reluctant to smite people. And he has plenty of "pet the dog" moments; he allowes Kronos to dwell in the Elysian Fields**, Hercules was permitted to free Prometheus, and he even forgave Ixion the Kin-Slayer (of course Ixion repaid him by trying to rape Hera).

*Including Zeus; indications are he does actually care about the women he seduces and the offspring thus produced on some level, which is why Hera torments them, because it's the only way she can hurt him.

**Which make all those stories where he's the Big Bad just itching to revenge himself on his children kinda silly.
Dunno why they qre judged by human standards, from a sideways view to them people are no different than a turnip.
 
Contemporary writers of the time( the "time" here being incredibly broad) such as Ovid would disagree. His writing depicted various gods as not only bastards, but extremely idiotic bastards. Something to be dealt with rather than actually respected.

What is missed is that the general attitude of the Classical Greeks and Romans and Hellenistic Greeks and Late Republican/Imperial Romans to the Gods is entirely different. Classical Greece and Early Rome, for one thing, are generally far more devout and treat that devoutness as a public spectacle, and the Gods are far less personable and far more beyond reproach.

Anyways, most of our information is from Athens and some of it is deliberate distortion. So I don't know if it's possible to make a judgment on "Hades" as if he was a single entity.
 
I just posted a rant about this on my tumblr earlier today, fortuitous!

The answer, is, I think, Values Dissonance. It's difficult to grok for someone raised in a modern democracy that believes that all men are equal, sprung off from a Judeo-Christian culture who's idea of Godhood expects the Divine to be perfect and omnipotent, but the Greek Gods are not, in fact, people with superpowers. They are Gods, higher beings to whom the world and everything in it belongs. Mankind exists entirely at their sufferance, and human civilization exists equally entirely because of their mercy and generosity.

Man exists because the Gods allow it. If a Man or Woman is strong or smart or beautiful or charming, it is because the Gods made him or her that way. If a harvest is successful, it's because the Gods of weather and earth and plants allowed it to be. If a hunt is successful it is because the Gods of hunting and animals allowed it to be. If a sea voyage is successful, it is because the Gods of wind and sea allowed it to be.

The land you live on belongs to the Gods, and you are able to live on it because the Gods allow it. The crops you grow and harvest so you can eat belongs to the Gods, and you are able to grow and harvest it it because the Gods allow it. The wood and metal and stone you gather and mine to build homes and tools from belongs to the Gods, and you are able to gather and mine it because the Gods allow it.

The Gods give Man heroes, to lead and protect them. The Gods give Man oracles, to teach and guide them. The Gods give Man justice, bringing punishments to the wicked and rewards to the righteous. Man has language and farming and animal husbandry and metalworking and music and writing and math and laws and all the things that civilization needs to exist and be worthy of the name because the Gods gave them to Man. The sole exception is fire, which Prometheus gave to us after stealing it from the Gods, and which the Gods then allowed us to keep, even after Prometheus taught us to cheat the Gods.

Man owes the Gods everything. The Gods owe Man nothing. So, yeah, the Gods inflicting terrible and horrific punishments on mortals who break their rules and/or offend them is not, in fact, petty or disproportionate, and is often arguably lenient.
...

Not seeing the difference between this take on religion, and the one put forward by christians, actually?
 
Hades is still complicit in the unjust system that is the greek afterlife

It's not really that unjust. Everyone goes to the same place regardless of whether they were good or bad. You can't get more fair than that.


If we're choosing which Greek god is the least objectionable, I'd probably go with Helios. All he does is drive the sun around the earth every day and generally causes no trouble, except for the one time he let his kid borrow the car keys.
 
It's not really that unjust. Everyone goes to the same place regardless of whether they were good or bad. You can't get more fair than that.

Umm. "Fair" is not the same thing as "Just"

It might be "Fair" that everybody goes to the same place (They do not; the Elysian fields exist), but it's not just. Justice would be people getting what they actually deserve.
 
Dunno why they qre judged by human standards, from a sideways view to them people are no different than a turnip.
On the contrary; I think the Greek/Roman gods get judged so often by human standards because they are in most ways just humans writ large. They think like humans and in most ways act like humans; except with super powers. They have understandable motives and emotions, not alien ones.
 
On the contrary; I think the Greek/Roman gods get judged so often by human standards because they are in most ways just humans writ large. They think like humans and in most ways act like humans; except with super powers. They have understandable motives and emotions, not alien ones.
They are more cosmic forces pretending to be human from observation , background events imitating the rabble with their interpretation
 
What is missed is that the general attitude of the Classical Greeks and Romans and Hellenistic Greeks and Late Republican/Imperial Romans to the Gods is entirely different. Classical Greece and Early Rome, for one thing, are generally far more devout and treat that devoutness as a public spectacle, and the Gods are far less personable and far more beyond reproach.

Anyways, most of our information is from Athens and some of it is deliberate distortion. So I don't know if it's possible to make a judgment on "Hades" as if he was a single entity.

This!

People miss the span of time and just smush everything together. Imagine how much christianity has changed from the 1400s to the 21st century. And at least there are standard texts and an organisation trying to maintain orthodoxy! There was none of that in Greek religion.

This video goes through the evolution of Dionysos from the Mycenaean age to hellenism:



Dionysos is more than average in terms of mythological metamorphosis, but it's just a difference in degrees.
 
That's the point.

People see the Greek Gods as humans with superpowers, but they're not, they're gods.

No, the opposite actually. People see gods as gods, when they're really just people with super powers. Greek, hindu, judeo-christian, they're all just fanfic superheroes before comic books codified the imagery.
 
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