Gunsmith Katsumi - Akitsukuni Arms Design Quest

[Eukie]

Tachibana Katsumi

Stress: 5/10

Accomplishments
Mechanical Engineering degree
Got a job in your field
Type 37 Special Purpose Rifle
Type 38 Self-Loading Pistol

Friends
Maeda Rumi: Your roommate.
Sanders Clara Rose: A colleague who works for Naylor, Sons & Daughters.

Coworkers
Mr. Watanabe: Your superior.
Mr. Akutagawa: The boss of the company.

Workshop 3
Ms. Ikeda Nioh: Chemist. She also seems to be Mr Watanabe's personal secretary, but you're not sure if that's an official position.
Mr. Yakade Yasuo: Physicist, specialized in ballistics. A living, breathing Technical Appendix C.
Mx. Kusonoki Mayumi: Has a degree in materials science. Gets a look on their face when they say they know more about wood than anyone.
Mr. Shiragiku Hideyoshi: Metalworker. Having met him, you've learned why metalworking is a craft and the meaning of the phrase "thinks himself heaven's gift to women".
Mr. Kashiwa Ichiro: An apprentice gunsmith with a background in carpentry and actually using guns on people.

Technologies

Spoiler: Technologies

Rifles (Familiar)
Shotguns (Familiar)
Pistols (Familiar)

Rotate-and-pull bolts (Practical)
Straight-pull bolts (Practical)
Aperture sights (Practical)
Stripper clips (Practical)
Lever-delayed blowback operation (Practical)
Double-stack magazines (Practical)
Single-action handguns (Practical)
En bloc clips (Conceptual)
Simple blowback operation (Conceptual)
Short recoil operation (Conceptual)
Toggle-delayed blowback operation (Conceptual)
Blow forward operation (Conceptual)
Simple blowback operation (Conceptual)
Double-action pistols (Conceptual)
Automatic revolvers (Conceptual)

 

[King50000]

[X] Pistol must use ammunition currently in widespread international service.
[X] (No mandatory stipulation on action type)
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥200
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 1000g unloaded
[X] Pistol must hold at least 8 rounds

 

[Artificial Girl]

[X] Pistol must use ammunition currently in widespread international service.
[X] (No mandatory stipulation on action type)
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥200
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 1000g unloaded
[X] Pistol must hold at least 8 rounds

 

[andrewopk]

[X] Pistol must use a revolver action
to spite watanabe

 

[Rat King]

[X] Pistol must use current Imperial service 9mm Type 33 ammunition.
[X] (No mandatory stipulation on action type)
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥200
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 650g unloaded
[X] Pistol must hold at least 8 rounds

What if we did a seven-cylinder like the Nagant with a shotgun barrel like on the LeMat? That's 8 rounds right there.

 

[googlyeyesultra]

[X] (No mandatory stipulation on action type)

[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥200

[X] Pistol must weigh less than 1000g unloaded

[X] Pistol must hold at least 8 rounds

I don't really have an opinion on the ammo type, but I'd like some freedom on weight/cost to make something interesting.

 

[xthetenth]

As a heads up, Imperial 9mm Type 33 is a rimmed round, don't stick it in an autoloader.

[X] Pistol must use current Imperial service 9mm Type 33 ammunition.
[X] Pistol must use a revolver action
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥100
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 650g unloaded
[X] Pistol must hold at least 6 rounds

Yes, this is specifying a small handgun laser focused on cost. You can always make an elegant gun well and coat the sucker in gilding and engraving to make the top rankers happy (which lets us get our margins where we specialize), and this is just a way to give people the ability to make gunfire noises and light without getting in their way. An inexpensive revolver does that ideally. I mean sure we could revolutionize handgun design and count on the civilian market, but the military seems to have a natural affinity for cheap jank.

 

[Rockeye]

[X] Pistol must use current Imperial service 9mm Type 33 ammunition.
[X] (No mandatory stipulation on action type)

 

[notgreat]

We're not very good at making cheap guns since we lack mass production, but aside from that we should be pretty good.

[X] Pistol must use current Imperial service 9mm Type 33 ammunition.
[X] (No mandatory stipulation on action type)
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥200
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 650g unloaded
[X] Pistol must hold at least 8 rounds

 

[Davin Valkri]

Let's take each of these in turn, and consider what the brass would be thinking as the specs were written up:

[ ] Pistol must use current Imperial service 9mm Type 33 ammunition.
[ ] Pistol must use ammunition currently in widespread international service.
[ ] Pistol must use ammunition with a calibre of at least .4 inches and a weight of at least 200 grains.

Click to shrink...

This is what is meant by "9mm Type 33 ammunition". Rimmed and not particularly powerful (note that it's a little less powerful than .38 S&W). I think we can do a bit better. But I also think Thompson-Lagarde is crap.
[X] Pistol must use ammunition currently in widespread international service.

[ ] Pistol must use a revolver action
[ ] Pistol must use an automatic action
[ ] (No mandatory stipulation on action type)

Click to shrink...

Webleys and 1911s, S&W Hand Ejector 1899s and FN Model 1910s are both here, so I don't see them picking one over the other.
[X] (No mandatory stipulation on action type)

[ ] Pistol must cost less than ¥200
[ ] Pistol must cost less than ¥100

Click to shrink...

In the real world, the Yen was at this time pegged to the dollar, ¥2 : $1. I think we can get the price of a decent pistol down to under $50 period money, don't you? Iver Johnson revolvers were going for $5 each!
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥100

[ ] Pistol must weigh less than 1000g unloaded
[ ] Pistol must weigh less than 650g unloaded

Click to shrink...

Whoever posted about the S&W Model 10, you convinced me.
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 1000g unloaded

[ ] Pistol must hold at least 8 rounds
[ ] Pistol must hold at least 6 rounds

Click to shrink...

I can totally see Akitsukuni commanders going "we must make up any physical difference between our soldiers and theirs with MORE BULLETS!"
[X] Pistol must hold at least 8 rounds

 

[ancusohm]

"As I'm sure you know, I've been very pleased with your work over the last few months"

Click to shrink...

Sigh. Is there a word for when someone is super shitty in an incredibly predictable way? Until I learn it, I'll just have to settle for calling him an asshole.

"I thought we could open it together, but I've already had some ideas for our new gun."

Click to shrink...

Silly old me, here I am thinking it would be best to read the requirements before making a plan.

 

[andrewopk]

In the real world, the Yen was at this time pegged to the dollar, ¥2 : $1. I think we can get the price of a decent pistol down to under $50 period money, don't you? Iver Johnson revolvers were going for $5 each!

Click to shrink...

"Hey Kibe, about how much is a thousand pounds?"

"Something like seventy thousand yen, I think. Why?"

Click to shrink...

I'll note that aircraft design quest is set at around the same time in this verse, and has yen to pounds at 70:1
e: (which kinda pegs the rifle at about half a pound each, which seems maybe low, i guess, probably)

 

[coyote16able]

[X] Pistol must use ammunition currently in widespread international service.
[X] (No mandatory stipulation on action type)
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥200
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 1000g unloaded
[X] Pistol must hold at least 6 rounds

 

[Stabbtmcstabstab]

[X] Pistol must use ammunition currently in widespread international service.
[X] Pistol must use an automatic action
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥200
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 1000g unloaded
[X] Pistol must hold at least 8 rounds

 

[Vebyast]

But it's also hella complicated mechanically speaking.

Click to shrink...

Not a gun person here. What makes bottom-cylinder revolvers mechanically complex? The hammer has to go in a spot that affords it much less room than when you put it behind the top cylinder? The mechanism for rotating the cylinder gets in the way? You have to put large portions of the mechanism off to the side where it reaches around the back? Nowhere to put the spring? Or is it some subtlety with the necessary geometry that I'm missing, like the way you have to make rotary engines with odd cylinder counts to get the timings right

(edit: I googled around, but most of the answers I could find were along the lines of "They aren't more complicated, just nontraditional", "They look ugly", and "They actually add less complication than making your revolver double-action", none of which explain the why.)

 

[hcvquizibo]

[X] Pistol must use current Imperial service 9mm Type 33 ammunition.
[X] (No mandatory stipulation on action type)
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥200
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 1000g unloaded
[X] Pistol must hold at least 8 rounds

 

[coyote16able]

Not a gun person here. What makes bottom-cylinder revolvers mechanically complex? The hammer has to go in a spot that affords it much less room than when you put it behind the top cylinder? The mechanism for rotating the cylinder gets in the way? You have to put large portions of the mechanism off to the side where it reaches around the back? Nowhere to put the spring? Or is it some subtlety with the necessary geometry that I'm missing, like the way you have to make rotary engines with odd cylinder counts to get the timings right?

Click to shrink...

well in RL there are only three revolvers with a six O'Clock barrel that I have been able to find the RSh-12 which is chambered in 12.7x55mm, the Chippa Rhino and the Mateba Autorevolver. Of the three the Rhino is the least insane.

 

[Always Late]

Not a gun person here. What makes bottom-cylinder revolvers mechanically complex? The hammer has to go in a spot that affords it much less room than when you put it behind the top cylinder? The mechanism for rotating the cylinder gets in the way? You have to put large portions of the mechanism off to the side where it reaches around the back? Nowhere to put the spring? Or is it some subtlety with the necessary geometry that I'm missing, like the way you have to make rotary engines with odd cylinder counts to get the timings right

Click to shrink...

well in RL there are only three revolvers with a six O'Clock barrel that I have been able to find the RSh-12 which is chambered in 12.7x55mm, the Chippa Rhino and the Mateba Autorevolver. Of the three the Rhino is the least insane.

Click to shrink...

The Mateba is pretty much what I'm most familiar with, and the one I usually see brought up for why the benefits of a bottom-cylinder aren't worth the cost. There's two things going on with the Mateba that make it a slight pain in the ass. One, the O-G revolver design has been basically solved by this point in history. The only differences between a revolver from the late 1800s, WWI, and today are small quality, durability, size, and safety tweaks. Everything still works on the same principles and general mechanisms. When you go bottom-cylinder, the mechanisms that exist in a normal revolver now have to be shuffled around to be in new locations, but still connected in the way the gun's supposed to work. That's all it is, in two words: Connecting parts. And with more parts in a system, it's just generally understood the more care and checks you have to put in to avoid a breakdown in a single part that screws the whole thing up. It's as much a problem on the design board as it is with the user. The other is the Mateba wants to be a gas-pressure semi-automatic, hence the large slide at the top. When everyone else does double-action and gets the same thing with just a trigger pull.

It's a question of how much complexity you're willing to accept as a consequence of improving a system meant to be simple.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

[X] Pistol must use ammunition currently in widespread international service.
[X] (No mandatory stipulation on action type)
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥100
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 1000g unloaded
[X] Pistol must hold at least 8 rounds

 

[Ramble]

What's the most common international round?

 

[Sir_Travelsalot]

What's the most common international round?

Click to shrink...

9x19 Parabellum, I think?

 

[Ramble]

9x19 Parabellum, I think?

Click to shrink...

That's a good round.

And absolutely perfect for when we start designing SMGs or pistol carbines.

[X] Pistol must use ammunition currently in widespread international service.
[X] Pistol must use a revolver action
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥100
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 650g unloaded
[X] Pistol must hold at least 6 rounds

 

[7734]

[X] Pistol must use ammunition currently in widespread international service.
[X] (No mandatory stipulation on action type)
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥200
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 650g unloaded
[X] Pistol must hold at least 8 rounds

"Hey, if it's worth doing it's worth doing right."

Click to shrink...

WHAT ARE YOU?!




Let me remind the thread that full screw lock has not been a common artillery action outside of rifles of six inches and greater caliber for the last forty to sixty years. de Bange has done his thing by now. Wellin has done his thing by now. Nordenfelt is rolling in piles of money from all his different breeches. Armstrong, the original mad arms dealer of the world, is sitting there throwing two-step screws around like bloody candy.

This kid just wants to design some Special Issue 40cm guns and if you are handing those to people then you may have goofed. Severely.

 

[Crazycryodude]

[X] Pistol must use ammunition currently in widespread international service.
[X] Pistol must use an automatic action
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥200
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 1000g unloaded
[X] Pistol must hold at least 8 rounds

Ironically I don't think we want our gun to be wildly popular, we're a tiny company that doesn't have a hundredth of the capital necessary to produce the most popular handgun of the century. Make a good, fancy, pricey gun instead until we play catch up enough to support mass production.

 

[brmj]

[X] Pistol must use ammunition currently in widespread international service.
[X] (No mandatory stipulation on action type)
[X] Pistol must cost less than ¥200
[X] Pistol must weigh less than 650g unloaded
[X] Pistol must hold at least 8 rounds

 

[Vebyast]

The other is the Mateba wants to be a gas-pressure semi-automatic, hence the large slide at the top.

Click to shrink...

I feel like that means you can't use anything about it as evidence relating to the feasibility of bottom-cylinder revolvers, lol. It'd be like using the maxim gun's water jacket to argue against the portability of SMGs.

One, the O-G revolver design has been basically solved by this point in history.

Click to shrink...

If there have only ever been three attempts at bottom-cylinder revolvers, only one of which wasn't chambered in a rifle cartridge or gas-operated, I wouldn't say that that avenue has been anything like sufficiently well-explored to say that the design has been "solved". It's like people who said circa 1910 that railway transportation had been solved - yeah, except for the whole "diesel locomotive" thing that was going to blow the industry up as soon as someone tried it for real. Maybe the argument is that automatic pistols were good enough that there wasn't any reason to improve on the revolver and if people started using revolvers seriously again we'd see advancements, but isn't that just the situation our protagonist is in right now?