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Glory to the machines! (Empire Builder)

Should I switch this Quest to Single Transferrable Vote?

  • Total voters
    15
  • Poll closed .
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Isaacssv558 said:
1. Not very many players. 2. Not much disagreement on what we should do, simply what order we should do it in.
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3. Not a clue about how sci-fi works.

I can rack my memory about all the magitech I've read about or encountered in games, but when it comes to research fields, how am I even going to formulate the direction without knowing at least something about it?

To suggest an idea of a device that could, say, diffuse lasers, or warp them, I have to have at least a basic idea of a wave/particle mechanics, or at least of what a laser is. That's the easy example everyone has heard about. Core mining, space elevator and other sci-fi cliches are the first that come to mind. However, once those examples are exhausted, how are we going to make proposals? Say, you want better boomsticks than your anti-matter weaponry... but what would the principle behind it? What are you supposed to be researching towards?

To give a direction one must at least know a part of the answer.

This problem could be partially solved by the author if he provides possible directions appropriate for our current level, if only to serve as guidelines.

Say, we have made a push towards FTL, because that's what we saw our attackers possess. They gave us an idea. But what if instead of FTL there would be an option to build something like Warpgate network that would allow us to freely concentrate forces around any such gate, but wouldn't allow us to move ships between the systems that aren't connected to the network? It's a genuine alternative for transportation between the stars that would have affected the very principles of our expansion and combat doctrine.

No one came up with it, though, so there wasn't any discussion about it. Suggesting these ideas that aren't immediately inferior to their better-known sci-fi counterparts is not exactly easy. And it's not like I came up with it on my own, it's another one I've read about, though it occurs less often.

TL;DR - this game either needs some hardcore sci-fi geeks to get off the ground, or the author giving hints to the possible developments.
 
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Nevill said:
3. Not a clue about how sci-fi works.

I can rack my memory about all the magitech I've read about or encountered in games, but when it comes to research fields, how am I even going to formulate the direction without knowing at least something about it?

To suggest an idea of a device that could, say, diffuse lasers, or warp them, I have to have at least a basic idea of a wave/particle mechanics, or at least of what a laser is. That's the easy example everyone has heard about. Core mining, space elevator and other sci-fi cliches are the first that come to mind. However, once those examples are exhausted, how are we going to make proposals? Say, you want better boomsticks than your anti-matter weaponry... but what would the principle behind it? What are you supposed to be researching towards?

To give a direction one must at least know a part of the answer.

This problem could be partially solved by the author if he provides possible directions appropriate for our current level, if only to serve as guidelines.

Say, we have made a push towards FTL, because that's what we saw our attackers possess. They gave us an idea. But what if instead of FTL there would be an option to build something like Warpgate network that would allow us to freely concentrate forces around any such gate, but wouldn't allow us to move ships between the systems that aren't connected to the network? It's a genuine alternative for transportation between the stars that would have affected the very principles of our expansion and combat doctrine.

No one came up with it, though, so there wasn't any discussion about it. Suggesting these ideas that aren't immediately inferior to their better-known sci-fi counterparts is not exactly easy. And it's not like I came up with it on my own, it's another one I've read about, though it occurs less often.

TL;DR - this game either needs some hardcore sci-fi geeks to get off the ground, or the author giving hints to the possible developments.
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I figure we'll just start researching less specific thing, instead of researching antimatter+ we'll research high energy particle physics, instead of researching shields we'll research gravitational or electromagnetic physics, etc. Our research actions so far have been somewhat closer to development than normal, mostly because we were in desperate need for immediate benefits, future research can focus more on theory and let development figure out how to apply the new knowledge.

In the end it all depends how things are set up. The "softer" the sci-fi the less you need knowledge of actual physics. For example, the Shepherd quest runs off normal physics + element zero so calculating (or at least guessing, physics is still far from any sort of completion) things like what wavelengths of laser is best in atmosphere or how changing the speed of light screws with the rules is important. A Star Wars quest, let alone something like SBY or Gunbuster, would have much less need for actual physics, you just propose something that seems to fit with the rest of the tech, e.g. "ultralasers" for Star Wars.
 
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Isaacssv558 said:
I figure we'll just start researching less specific thing, instead of researching antimatter+ we'll research high energy particle physics, instead of researching shields we'll research gravitational or electromagnetic physics, etc. Our research actions so far have been somewhat closer to development than normal, mostly because we were in desperate need for immediate benefits, future research can focus more on theory and let development figure out how to apply the new knowledge.

In the end it all depends how things are set up. The "softer" the sci-fi the less you need knowledge of actual physics. For example, the Shepherd quest runs off normal physics + element zero so calculating (or at least guessing, physics is still far from any sort of completion) things like what wavelengths of laser is best in atmosphere or how changing the speed of light screws with the rules is important. A Star Wars quest, let alone something like SBY or Gunbuster, would have much less need for actual physics, you just propose something that seems to fit with the rest of the tech, e.g. "ultralasers" for Star Wars.
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I'm going primarily for hard science, but with some minor allowances for how Quantum Entanglement and distorting spacetime works. VERY minor allowances. Oh just so you know, in the late game you're likely to run face first into the limits on your technology imposed by the local physics. There's also plenty of looseness in Materials Science, as that's one of the fields I have no idea how it works.
 
I just write said:
I'm going primarily for hard science, but with some minor allowances for how Quantum Entanglement and distorting spacetime works. VERY minor allowances. Oh just so you know, in the late game you're likely to run face first into the limits on your technology imposed by the local physics. There's also plenty of looseness in Materials Science, as that's one of the fields I have no idea how it works.
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The issue with hard and fast limits because of "physics" in any sort of sci-fi is that we still have many holes in our understanding of physics. For example, you'd think it would be impossible to make lasers with negative diffusion over range but apparently there is research suggesting that sufficiently strong lasers will actually self-focus. (See Phys. Rev. A 75, 043807 (2007) - Vacuum self-focusing of very intense laser beams, unfortunately the article itself needs a subscription.) Then you have things like dark matter/energy, which are pretty much purely theoretical and of unknown nature. See xkcd: Fixion for a humorous take on some of the issues. (1621: Fixion - explain xkcd explains what they refer to.)

EDIT: Found the full text of the paper. http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1147&context=physastro_pubs

Basically, pretty much any field has looseness if you go far enough, especially when you involve situations we have have no or limited exposure too, such as we will almost certainly encounter in our expansion. Basically, you can justify any model of physics as long as our physics exists as a special case for our little corner of the universe. It's sorta like what happened with Newtonian gravitational physics. They worked fine for the levels of gravity encountered in everyday life on Earth, but ceased to operate correctly when applied to solar phenomenon operating a different scale.
 
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Isaacssv558 said:
The issue with hard and fast limits because of "physics" in any sort of sci-fi is that we still have many holes in our understanding of physics. For example, you'd think it would be impossible to make lasers with negative diffusion over range but apparently there is research suggesting that sufficiently strong lasers will actually self-focus. (See Phys. Rev. A 75, 043807 (2007) - Vacuum self-focusing of very intense laser beams, unfortunately the article itself needs a subscription.) Then you have things like dark matter/energy, which are pretty much purely theoretical and of unknown nature. See xkcd: Fixion for a humorous take on some of the issues. (1621: Fixion - explain xkcd explains what they refer to.)

Basically, pretty much any field has looseness if you go far enough, especially when you involve situations we have have no or limited exposure too, such as we will almost certainly encounter in our expansion. Basically, you can justify any model of physics as long as our physics exists as a special case for our little corner of the universe. It's sorta like what happened with Newtonian gravitational physics. They worked fine for the levels of gravity encountered in everyday life on Earth, but ceased to operate correctly when applied to solar phenomenon operating a different scale.
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You've got a point. Fine. It'll still be staying hard science for the most part until the real late game.
 
[X] Plan Colonise


So I see we are literally going down the Progenitor Commander route for resources and warfare... I approve whole heartedly!
 
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It might be a wise idea to have a material science project to make useful materials out of the materials left behind in our crust (mostly silicates). I think the best direction for this would be advanced ceramics.

I just copied plan colonize for everything else, since people liked it.

[X] Plan Ceramics

Expansion
-- Colonize planet 1.
-- Colonize first belt.

Research
-- Research ftl.
-- Research exotic Matter Containment
-- Research ftl communications.
-- Research material science, with a focus on creating stronger ceramics using the silicates combined with carbon nanotubes.
-- Research thermodynamics, with a focus on anything that might help us cool our spacecraft.
Development
-- Develop improved manufacturing techniques.
-- Develop core mining.
-- Develop core mining.
-- Develop particle beam weaponry.
-- Develop colony ships.
Industry
-- Build Colony Ships
-- Build Space Elevator
Economics
-- Expand XCarb manufacturing.
-- Build additional citizen factories.
-- Do Preliminary work for core mining.
-- Do Preliminary work for core mining.

Espionage
-- Set up early warning satellites throughout the system.
 
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Doomsough said:
It might be a wise idea to have a material science project to make useful materials out of the materials left behind in our crust (mostly silicates). I think the best direction for this would be advanced ceramics.

I just copied plan colonize for everything else, since people liked it.

[X] Plan Ceramics

Expansion
-- Colonize planet 1.
-- Colonize first belt.

Research
-- Research ftl.
-- Research ftl communications.
-- Research material science, with a focus on creating stronger ceramics using the silicates combined with carbon nanotubes.
-- Research material science, try to find other uses for silicates.
-- Research thermodynamics, with a focus on anything that might help us cool our spacecraft.
Development
-- Develop improved manufacturing techniques.
-- Develop core mining.
-- Develop core mining.
-- Develop particle beam weaponry.
-- Develop colony ships.
Industry
-- Build Colony Ships
-- Build Space Elevator
Economics
-- Expand XCarb manufacturing.
-- Build additional citizen factories.
-- Do Preliminary work for core mining.
-- Do Preliminary work for core mining.

Espionage
-- Set up early warning satellites throughout the system.
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I like the idea of finding ways to use our silicates but I don't agree with removing antimatter and exotic materials to do so. It seems like a good thing to research next turn but doesn't seem as important as jumping to the next power tier and gaining FTL.
 
Still in favor of plan Colonize, with further research projects designed around the needs and problems of our colonists.

If silicates can be used there in any capacity - then by all means.
 
Exotic materials seemed a bit vague and thus a bad vote to me.

I however have removed the second Silicate research project for exotic matter containment, which is hinted at to be a separate problem to breach by the previous update.

I think antimatter is a bit too soon though. There is plenty of places we can go with fusion yet, such as multi stage reactors and CNO reactors. I think we should wait until we at least have artificial gravity for our containment vessels before we go after antimatter.
 
Doomsough said:
Exotic materials seemed a bit vague and thus a bad vote to me.

I however have removed the second Silicate research project for exotic matter containment, which is hinted at to be a separate problem to breach by the previous update.

I think antimatter is a bit too soon though. There is plenty of places we can go with fusion yet, such as multi stage reactors and CNO reactors. I think we should wait until we at least have artificial gravity for our containment vessels before we go after antimatter.
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I've changed exotic materials to exotic matter to make it clearer. (I was using them interchangeably) Researching Antimatter would let us do a development action for antimatter missiles next turn. Actual Antimatter reactors are a longer term goal, and improved fusion would be developed in the meantime. Basically, I feel that while having the additional resources from silicate based ceramics would be useful having a better theoretical understanding of antimatter (which we can use to make antimatter missiles) would be moreso. (Admittedly this is somewhat subjective, I'm concerned that we'll run into potential hostiles sometime soon and want to ensure we can defend ourselves. If I was sure we'd have a few decades before running into some sort of potential conflict I'd probably support the ceramics.)

Also, fusion reactors are important regardless of wether we can make antimatter as while antimatter is excellent for high density energy storage it's not really a great way to actually generate power. (Basically only useful in spaceships and other things that need lots of power density.) We'd still be using fusion to generate power both for civilian needs and to actually make the antimatter. Naturally, this could change if we somehow find a nebula made out of antimatter or something (Which I really doubt we will).

EDIT: Figured it might be good to note that I don't think your plan is horrible or anything, I just like debating/discussing. (I've had problems in the past with people misinterpreting my trying to have a discussion.)
 
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Advanced ceramics aren't just good because they can use the silicates we have lying around, ceramics can also help with heat management by acting as insulators and eventually we can graduate to use them as light weight but strong structural composites like bone.
 
Doomsough said:
Advanced ceramics aren't just good because they can use the silicates we have lying around, ceramics can also help with heat management by acting as insulators and eventually we can graduate to use them as light weight but strong structural composites like bone.
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I don't disagree they'll be useful for multiple reasons, I just think we still need to focus on dealing with the problems caused by the monsters attack. (Lack of population, resources, industry, and military) They seem like a good thing to research next turn but I still feel we need to research antimatter so we can pass Antimatter missiles onto development next turn and, hopefully, start producing a military.
 
Isaacssv558 said:
They seem like a good thing to research next turn but I still feel we need to research antimatter so we can pass Antimatter missiles onto development next turn and, hopefully, start producing a military.
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I kind of feel like passing up the military research for a while, banking on the possibility the invaders won't return (they don't expect us to recover) and that there won't be anyone else in our vicinity.

Looks like we were left with bare necessities, and any military we can scrounge now from whatever scraps we have won't be holding up against the overwhelming might the invaders brought down upon us. So I think we would be screwed either way if we are attacked early... which is why we need to make our plans on the assumption that we won't be attacked for a while (a few more turns).

That's why I don't feel it is such a pressing concern compared to enhancing our expansion and industrial rates to have an economical base upon which we would be able to build a serious military force.
 
Nevill said:
I kind of feel like passing up the military research for a while, banking on the possibility the invaders won't return (they don't expect us to recover) and that there won't be anyone else in our vicinity.

Looks like we were left with bare necessities, and any military we can scrounge now from whatever scraps we have won't be holding up against the overwhelming might the invaders brought down upon us. So I think we would be screwed either way if we are attacked early... which is why we need to make our plans on the assumption that we won't be attacked for a while (a few more turns).

That's why I don't feel it is such a pressing concern compared to enhancing our expansion and industrial rates to have an economical base upon which we would be able to build a serious military force.
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I'm not as concerned about the planet looters as I am whoever else we might run into, I'm not saying we should neglect our expansion but putting some research towards the tech for a good military should prevent us from ending up in a bad situation if we do run into something. We'll probably only have a very small fleet but I'm guessing particle beams and antimatter missiles are above average and will give us an advantage in combat. Basically, I don't want to bank too much on not running into trouble; I want to make sure we don't look like easy pickings and can hold off an attack long enough to build a serious military. Either way our primary focus would be expansion and recovery, but we should maintain a secondary focus on our mil tech to avoid getting curb stomped before we can build ourselves up.

(I've never played a game where not having a military when you meet the other players turns out well. [Except for cases where I played a Diplomat focused race/civ/whatever, and that just buys some time.])
 
We're going to need a military to annihilate the Enemy. That simply leaves the question of when we get one, and based on admittedly-limited precedent we'll need to defend ourselves sooner rather than later in the event we run into another starfaring species.
 
Oh, by the way, I've gotten back in touch with my other players now that the break is over. The game should be able to get back into gear soon.
 
Ginger Maniac said:
We're going to need a military to annihilate the Enemy. That simply leaves the question of when we get one, and based on admittedly-limited precedent we'll need to defend ourselves sooner rather than later in the event we run into another starfaring species.
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This. Basically my thought but more in-character and less meta.

I just write said:
Oh, by the way, I've gotten back in touch with my other players now that the break is over. The game should be able to get back into gear soon.
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Great!
 
[X] Plan Colonize

Found this quest a while back but wasn't in a position to post then. I'm always a fan of Robotic nations/races, especially when they are pretty heavily differentiated from us squishy humanoids. Kinda lucky I missed most of the dry spell.
 
Hey, just discovered this game, and it looks just wonderful! Love the premise, love the worldbuilding, everything!

So, I'm diving in! Hope nobody minds. I'd also recommend looking at my Research Tech List in my signature, for possible future research ideas (they're on Page 2, broken into historical periods up to Kardashev 3).

***

[X] Plan Dipping Toes

Expansion (N/A)


Research
- Continue research on FTL (Warp Drive).
- Research Exotic Matter Containment
- Research FTL communications.
- Research material science, with a focus on creating heat and electrically-resistant materials to build robot bodies/chassises out of (stronger ceramics utilizing silicates combined with CNT?). (OOC: Primarily to enable easier colonization of Planets 1, 3, and 4)
- Research Industrial Nanotech/Nanoassembly Systems

Development
- Develop improved manufacturing techniques.
- Develop Gen1 Ion Shields (Ion Shield for Interplanetary Spaceships Now a Reality - Universe Today) in conjunction with Colony Ship plans/development.
- Improve existing planetary transportation infrastructure tech (vacuum maglev railroads, better roads, coordinated logistics centers, etc)
- Develop Gen1 particle beam weaponry.
- Develop Gen1 colony ships plans/schematics.

Industry
- Improve/expand existing planetary transportation infrastructure (vacuum maglev railroads, better roads, coordinated logistics centers, etc)
- Continue building Space Elevator

Economics
- Expand XCarb manufacturing (aiming for 8 more, the new total number 20).
- Build additional citizen factories (aiming for 5 more, the new total being 10).
- Do Preliminary work for core mining.
- Do Preliminary work for core mining.

Espionage
- Set up clusters of early warning satellites orbiting all the major planetary bodies and moons throughout the system (and a few satellite clusters orbiting above and below the Belts' main orbital planes).
 
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avatar11792 said:
Hey, just discovered this game, and it looks just wonderful! Love the premise, love the worldbuilding, everything!

So, I'm diving in! Hope nobody minds. I'd also recommend looking at my Research Tech List in my signature, for possible future research ideas (they're on Page 2, broken into historical periods up to Kardashev 3).

***

[X] Plan Dipping Toes

Expansion
- Colonize planet 1.
- Colonize first belt.

Research
- Continue research on FTL (Warp Drive).
- Research Exotic Matter Containment
- Research FTL communications.
- Research material science, with a focus on creating heat and electrically-resistant materials to build robot bodies/chassises out of (stronger ceramics utilizing silicates combined with CNT?). (OOC: Primarily to enable easier colonization of Planets 1, 3, and 4)
- Research Ion Shields (Ion Shield for Interplanetary Spaceships Now a Reality - Universe Today) (OOC: Because machines need all the protection from errant solar and cosmic rads they can get, right? Might also lead to future antimatter containment tech, also.)

Development
- Develop improved manufacturing techniques (possibly investigate nanotech?).
- Continue to develop core mining techniques/systems.
- Improve existing planetary transportation infrastructure tech (vacuum maglev railroads, better roads, coordinated logistics centers, etc)
- Develop Gen1 particle beam weaponry.
- Develop Gen1 colony ships plans.

Industry
- Improve/expand existing planetary transportation infrastructure (vacuum maglev railroads, better roads, coordinated logistics centers, etc)
- Continue building Space Elevator

Economics
- Expand XCarb manufacturing (aiming for 8 more, the new total number 20).
- Build additional citizen factories (aiming for 5 more, the new total being 10).
- Do Preliminary work for core mining.
- Do Preliminary work for core mining.

Espionage
- Set up clusters of early warning satellites orbiting all the major planetary bodies and moons throughout the system (and a few satellite clusters orbiting above and below the Belts' main orbital planes).
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I don't think we can create colonies if we don't spend an industry action to start creating colony ships first. Primary differences seem to be ion shields instead of antimatter and transportation. Since we already have modern level tech I think ion shields are probably a development action, which I intend to replace the second core mining action of Plan Colonize with.
 
Isaacssv558 said:
I don't think we can create colonies if we don't spend an industry action to start creating colony ships first.
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Ah, fair point. Will modify.

Primary differences seem to be ion shields instead of antimatter and transportation. Since we already have modern level tech I think ion shields are probably a development action, which I intend to replace the second core mining action of Plan Colonize with.
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Well, I'm also focusing more on improving transportation systems at home before moving onto other worlds. Improving transportation tech should benefit other worlds' infrastructure as well as ours, once we start building it.

As for the Ion Shields, they're a comparatively new development, and it's up to the GM I suppose whether they have the preliminary tech for it or not. I put in Research just to be on the safe side.
 
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WoG incoming:

Making colony ships is part of the expansion action to establish the colony in the first place.

You've already got ion shields.

The vote will be locked at roughly 3:00 PM.
 
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