Hell, if they actually cared about inheritance or rules, they'd have supported Stannis instead of breaking away from the 7 Kingdoms altogether.

Which is why Robb didn't explicitly argue against supporting Renly on the basis of inheritance laws and they agreed. :rolleyes:

They crowned him with Stannis not having declared himself king yet and not thinking Joffrey was a bastard and so the legitimate king.
 
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The problem is, they're running on this expectations that people in Westeros follow the rules all the time every time, which is actually not true in the slightest. Do I need to quote GRRM again where he outright states that even in real life, people played fast and loose with inheritance laws as well?

If it works for you, cool. I'm not going to get all pissed off because someone disagrees with me about a piece of fiction. Jon as a king is cool and all, but I still think Sansa should have been Queen or at the very least abdicated. A lot of what's going on in the show feels very wish fulfillment rather than what would more than likely happen.
 
If it works for you, cool. I'm not going to get all pissed off because someone disagrees with me about a piece of fiction. Jon as a king is cool and all, but I still think Sansa should have been Queen or at the very least abdicated. A lot of what's going on in the show feels very wish fulfillment rather than what would more than likely happen.
I have zero doubt that Jon will be named KITN in the books as well.
 
Jon won't remain KITN for long. The show has been telegraphing Dany x Jon like crazy ever since the R+L=J cut. He can't be KITN and Prince-Consort of the Seven Kingdoms simultaneously.

I'm actually hoping HBO goes for Dany/Jon/Sansa, and there's actually a chance because this is the same network that produced Big Love, but I doubt it'll happen.
 
I have zero doubt that Jon will be named KITN in the books as well.

But things are set up much better in the books.

1. Robb had a letter written where Jon was legitimized as a Stark and his heir.
2. All the other Starks are thought to be dead with the soon to be exposed exception of Jeyne Poole being an Arya pretender.
3. It's much more emphasized the Northerners HATE the Boltons. Only the Karstarks genuinely support them, and a large chunk of the North went for Stannis just to kill the traitors.

The situation in the books is MUCH different and more in line to support Jon becoming king both legally and practically, even if it is a stretch of the customs.
 
Jon won't remain KITN for long. The show has been telegraphing Dany x Jon like crazy ever since the R+L=J cut. He can't be KITN and Prince-Consort of the Seven Kingdoms simultaneously.
Technically by the inheritance laws, Jon would have more right to the IT then Dany does. But again, since when do people care about those, amiright? XD
 
See, the thing is I much prefer how the show does it then how you propose it. It makes a more powerful and meaningful crowning that the people CHOOSE him to be KITN, not just because some scrap of paper says he is.

I get that, but it's unlikely with Sansa around. And just because you wear a crown doesn't mean you're the most powerful and trusted person in the kingdom.
 
And that's what we've been arguing, just give it the sense of legitimacy that the people living in this world would want. Internal consistency.
What sense of legitimacy would you even WANT? Why is it so unbeliebable that the North would willingly choose Jon to be KITN on their own instead of believing a scrap of paper, which by the way, anyone could just claim is false or just tear it up like Cersei did.
 
What sense of legitimacy would you even WANT? Why is it so unbeliebable that the North would willingly choose Jon to be KITN on their own instead of believing a scrap of paper, which by the way, anyone could just claim is false or just tear it up like Cersei did.

Well the answer to that lies with your own personal sense of what you find plausible in regards to the customs and personalities of this world. Some find what happen acceptable by their understanding of GoT's plausibility, others do not. We're probably never going to come to an accord other than agreeing to disagree, especially since this is fiction and has no bearing on our ability to live quality lives.
 
Did you vote for Trump too just because he sounded good without actually questioning the fact that he has zero experience?
Considering I'm Canadian, even if I wanted to, I couldn't :V

If you have to make ridiculous comparisions bordering on attacks on my character, how about making them remotely slightly accurate?
You know, when you blatently make one side out to be reduced to an absurd exaggeration, it doesn't make an argument for you, it just makes your argument that much weaker because you have to rely on exaggerations instead of facts.
Yeah, it's not like I put words and sentences expanding on my perspective before putting up the meme, or anything. Nope, all style, no substance :eyeroll:

More seriously,
You have yet to give any reason WHY Sansa should be queen when in both books AND show, she has little to no actual skills that make her a good one.
Funnily enough, I wrote "the one who could have been the Queen in the North", and not should, for a reason. I also said:
Sure, but I would have loved a better shitty excuse, like, I dunno, Bran and Sansa officially relinquishing their right of inheritance and legitimazing Jon in their capacity as the last Starks or whatever.
Which @Wi'se also pointed out to you: Sansa could have been made queen because she was the eldest surviving Stark and then abdicated in favor of her half-brother, Jon being King is not the problem, but how it was done was. I also refuse to believe you can't see any problem with a female character being denied characterization and accomplishment of goals in favor of a male character, but that's neither there nor there.

But alright, you know why Sansa could (not should) have made a good queen? She survived King's Landing, notably because she used her refined manners to power through her abuses and came out of them looking better than her tormentors. She was also a political animal, able to pick out the most little of details, even before Littlefinger takes her under his wing. Example:
ASoS Tyrion VIII said:
She is good at this, he thought, as he watched her tell Lord Gyles that his cough was sounding better, compliment Elinor Tyrell on her gown, and question Jalabhar Xho about wedding customs in the Summer Isles. His cousin Ser Lancel had been brought down by Ser Kevan, the first time he'd left his sickbed since the battle. He looks ghastly. Lancel's hair had turned white and brittle, and he was thin as a stick. Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed. She would have made Joffrey a good queen and a better wife if he'd had the sense to love her.
So no, she doesn't just act like a typical princess waif".

By contrast, as @Hykal94 pointed out, Jon's lack of political acumen and disregard of old customs (the Night's Watch being supposed to take no part in the wars of the realm) got him stabbed. Furthermore, your argument as for why Jon should be KITN was "he's been in battle and was a leader". Okay. Let's think and speculate, or rather, let's ask the rest of the class:

What recent ruler was a great leader and fighter in war and was made King as a result? Furthermore, how did his reign go?

See, this is a problem with the recent seasons after stopping following the books: they abandoned thematic sense in favor of what's cooler. Throughout ASOIAF and the first seasons of GOT, the theme of power comes back incessantly: what is power? What is its purpose? Who has it? And what do they do with it? Do they even deserve it? Through Ned, any of the Five "Kings", Joffrey, Daenerys, Cersei, etc., you see people in position of power either due to birth or violence, and what results or consequences it brings.

So when the show has violent psychopaths like Ramsay or Euron going "power comes from being crazy!", it diminishes, nay, trample on that theme. All the Twenty Good Men, the teleporting fleets, the blowing up the equivalent of St. Peter's Basilica (or would it be Westminster Abbey?) without consequences, they just further and further prove the showrunners no longer care anymore.

Jon as King is not as bad as those examples, but when you make him King basically the same way Robert Baratheon was and that wasn't a good thing, you need to take a step back. I can only hope, if they go through with this completely, that they show Jon's capability doesn't solely rests on martial prowess.

Oh, I forgot, why am I even arguing this? "Themes are for eighth grade book reports" after all.
 
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ut alright, you know why Sansa could (not should) have made a good queen? She survived King's Landing, notably because she used her refined manners to power through her abuses and came out of them looking better than her tormentors. She was also a political animal, able to pick out the most little of details, even before Littlefinger takes her under his wing. Example:

So no, she doesn't just act like a typical princess waif".
That's not being a political animal, that's shutting up and acting like a good little pawn just so that she could survive. And in the end did she choose to leave King's Landing on her own? Did she arrange a plan for her to escape or some measure to gain enough power to get better? No. She got caught up in someone else's plan, partially blamed for Joffrey's death despite doing nothing and got rescued just because Littlefinger has a fucked up crush on her. That entire aspect is the same in the books AND the show.

So basically, you're claiming that she could be a good queen because she did nothing and let other people do all the important stuff for her.

So when the show has violent psychopaths like Ramsay or Euron going "power comes from being crazy!", it diminishes, nay, trample on that theme. All the Twenty Good Men, the teleporting fleets, the blowing up the equivalent of St. Peter's Basilica (or would it be Westminster Abbey?) without consequences, they just further and further prove the showrunners no longer care anymore.
Ramsey and Euron have always been violent psychopaths in the books too. And both of them have been doing quite well in getting what they both want without consequence. Blame GRRM for this, not double D.

As for Cersei? Have you even read the books at all? Since the first time we see her and read about her, we know full well she's just that petty and short-sighted to get what she wants. Even when we finally get a chapter for her perspective, we might assume we'd get some genuine sympathy for her. But no! We're just affirmed even further that she's just that much of a cunt. All of this put together paints a picture that yes, Cersei WOULD just outright kill all the people she sees her enemies without mercy or regard for the consequences.

Really, the only real problem that people seem to have that I agree with is in the books, it's maintained that the Wildfire cache under the Sept was found and deposed off. But really, all that has to happen is Cersei just commissions the Alchemist's guild to make more of the stuff just like she did before the Battle of Blackwater and have the stuff placed back under the sept. There, we still get the big sept boom.
 
That's not being a political animal, that's shutting up and acting like a good little pawn just so that she could survive. And in the end did she choose to leave King's Landing on her own? Did she arrange a plan for her to escape or some measure to gain enough power to get better? No. She got caught up in someone else's plan, partially blamed for Joffrey's death despite doing nothing and got rescued just because Littlefinger has a fucked up crush on her. That entire aspect is the same in the books AND the show.

So basically, you're claiming that she could be a good queen because she did nothing and let other people do all the important stuff for her.
Sansa is not solely a pawn. She is a 12 year old girl, and yes, she was manipulated by the schemers in the realm. That said, she makes do with what she is given--courtesy, empathy, self-control--and develops into a resilient character with only that. She demonstrated tremendous ability to bear pressure, to close herself off and guard herself from a world of people looking to hurt her, and for it, she's still alive.

It's hard to realize that at first since she seems kind of passive (and she is pretty much hateable), but she was the one surrounded by enemies... and survived despite it all, which is no small feat compared to Ned.

But I'm not really committed to the idea of Sansa as queen anyway, so eh.
Ramsey and Euron have always been violent psychopaths in the books too. And both of them have been doing quite well in getting what they both want without consequence. Blame GRRM for this, not double D.
Not true actually, at least in regard to Ramsay. Because of his actions and his father's, the Boltons are hated throughout the North, showing that being evil and opportunistic can only take you so far. And, with the Lannister powerbase collapsing practically a certainty at this point, House Bolton (along with House Frey) have to square off alone against Stannis and the Northmen they pissed off (which the show fucked up with their "20 good men" bullshit and character assassination of Stannis).

This is a bit of the same lesson there was with Joffrey, who, without the helps of more clever persons like Varys, Tyrion and Tywin, would have lost the war or been assassinated.

Euron is a bit more difficult case, but at least in the books he doesn't teleport around.
As for Cersei? Have you even read the books at all?
Cersei being what she is isn't what I'm criticizing here (though there is also plenty to talk about there, both in the show and in the books). Cersei blowing up the Great Sept is.

On its own, the scene works, both as a dramatic event and as a character statement - cutting the Gordion Knot on a grand scale, gathering all of her political enemies in one place and murdering them in a gratuitous fashion. I can totally buy it as a desperation play from someone who feels trapped, and the season up until that point did a wonderful job of explaining why Cersei feels both trapped and vengeful.

It just... doesn't seem to have had any of the consequences I would have logically expected. You're telling me none of Cersei's bodyguards are genuinely devout, or had relatives who were? None of her lords and bannermen? Hell, that no one in Westeros is devout enough to spark a wave of popular outrage, which some pragmatic leader could ride all the way to the Iron Throne?

It's to the point you have to ask if people know or care that she blew up their religious center.

Then again, religion not feeling real is a problem in the books as well, so...
 
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It just... doesn't seem to have had any of the consequences I would have logically expected. You're telling me none of Cersei's bodyguards are genuinely devout, or had relatives who were? None of her lords and bannermen? Hell, that no one in Westeros is devout enough to spark a wave of popular outrage, which some pragmatic leader could ride all the way to the Iron Throne?
You could argue that the soldiers/bannermen were feeling more irked towards that the Sparrows were doing.
 
So basically, you're claiming that she could be a good queen because she did nothing and let other people do all the important stuff for her.

I'm not really sure this is the argument you want to make pushing John Snow's claim to the crown.

John "losing to Mance Rayder until Stannis Baratheon showed up with his army and saved me, getting whipped by Ramsey Bolton until Littlefinger showed up with the Knights of the Vale and saved me" Snow.
 
I'm not really sure this is the argument you want to make pushing John Snow's claim to the crown.

John "losing to Mance Rayder until Stannis Baratheon showed up with his army and saved me, getting whipped by Ramsey Bolton until Littlefinger showed up with the Knights of the Vale and saved me" Snow.
At least Jon actually DID shit and risked his life more then once to actually try to get things done.
 
Ramsey and Euron have always been violent psychopaths in the books too. And both of them have been doing quite well in getting what they both want without consequence. Blame GRRM for this, not double D.

You're dead wrong here.

Book Ramsay isn't an omnicompetent, kissed by the universe Villain Sue who always gets away with everything like his show counterpart. All the success that the Boltons have had was down to his father, and its made clear that their stranglehold on the north would disintegrate overnight if Ramsay were ever in charge.

Euron is successful, but his success doesn't come from being crazy. It comes from being a fucking wizard. He'd probably be even more successful if he wasn't also a maniac.
 
And you have a problem with him teleporting ships... why? XD

Because it's not like the show cut that out or anything. If they hadn't there wouldn't be anything to complain about since we know Mel at least is capable of providing good winds for ships so it would be plausible for him to pull it off in the books via magic.
 
BazBattles, a YouTuber who does the whole "savage box armies beating up each other" like Historia Civilis just did a pretty damn good summary of Robert's Rebellion.



If you need a reminder how the rebellion went (or appreciate the cool presentation), I highly encourage you all to watch it. Short, to the point, but highly effective. Showed this to my brother who knows nothing of the series, might want to share it around too.
 
I am not sure how intentional it is but I really really hate Dany this season. Morally she is not as bad as Cersei or Euron obviously but the way that the show cuts has characters heap praises on her then immediately have her fail to live up to said praise is annoying. "Don't judge me based on my father. But my lineage is still absolute and you better bow to me." Her claiming the rule of the Targs was peaceful and prosperous is either flat out untrue or a massive retcon. In that final battle my heart was with Lannisters defending their home from a violent invading army and not the wannabe queen burning people to death by the dozens. I was really hoping that Bronn was going to kill Drogon she has three dragons so losing one would not be a crippling loss but the image of a low-born nobody killing the master races superweapon appeals to me.
There's a lot of problems with the show, some problems this season example people are complaining online about what happened at the end of episode 3 at Highgarden finding it unrealistic that the Lannisters and Tarley army could take Highgarden with an army that look liked it had no siege weapons or ladders.

I think season 7 would have been better recieved by fans so far if it was 10 episodes long like the previous seasons.
 
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