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From Stone to the Stars

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The way I see it, we can continue powering up our martial and population, then shove out anyone who moves in there in the interim.
 
[X] [Victory] Adopt them into the People.
[X] [Memory] Establish competitions (Promote Folk Wrestling)
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Ghostdevil on Feb 19, 2018 at 11:41 PM, finished with 452 posts and 19 votes.
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[X] [Victory] Adopt them into the People.
[X] [Memory] Establish competitions(Promote Folk Wrestling)
 
Redium said:
Tymon suggests that the Fingers is an extremely valuable trade node. The Fingersmen supported themselves primarily off the strength that gave them; trading their spirit food for slaves to manufacture it. Five major rivers intersect there, controlling the region is extremely significant in controlling trade through the known world. The area demonstrates high levels of fertility (more so than anywhere else the People can compare to or remember) and has abundant fish stocks.

If you don't try to take and hold the Fingers, someone else will, Tymon promises
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Taking all of this into account, this is one of the main reasons I think we should settle on the Fingers. As people have already stated this area is an extremely important trade node, controlling it now and maintaining control of it could be extremely advantageous for us both in terms with of economics as well as martial. If we take into account the stones we can get from the Crystal Lake, the Blackstone, as well as whatever the Fingers tribe was mining here we could use that to our advantage in the future when we come down the rivers not as raiders but as traders, and in doing so we can enrich ourselves while also creating potential allies and buffer states along our periphery. The fact that we have the ability to potentially trade during winter as well due to our wolf sleds is only a bonus.

Martially, while settling here would of course tie us down to the great river, the fact that we are at the confluence of many other rivers could allow us to more easily respond and patrol our territory as the rivers would expedite travel for us far more than would be possible to without them.

The fact that this area is abundantly fertile in land and fish stocks makes it a great area for us to settle down into. History has shown us that many a great civilization have arisen from areas just like this, a fertile river valley, whether they be the Indus River Valley civilization to Mesopotamia, to China, to Egypt, and so on and so forth. The fact that we could also potentially absorb the River Bend tribe as well as the remnants of the Fingers tribes gives us a great start.

If we are risk averse and allow this opportunity to slip away due to fear, then Tymon will likely be correct in the fact that someone else will stumble upon this site and take it for themselves. At that point whether they are peaceful or not we will have lost an opportunity and gained another problem. Frankly speaking I think we should strike while the iron is hot and use this victory, and the stability it brings to enact the change needed for us to not only survive this age but prosper. I would rather not have us waste an opportunity and make a mistake here only to pay for it down the line, whether that be dealing with another tribe of raiders, or the moral problem of having to oust whoever takes the Fingers in the future if they are peaceful. At the moment our cause was just, in the future if we let this slip by, it may not be.

Redium said:
Tymon also thinks that settling the Fingers will dangerously stretch the People and tie you completely to the great river. Crystal Lake is located 2 weeks downriver/6 weeks upriver from the Fingers. He feels that settling both could dangerously stretch the People's attention. (If you had made different choices up to this point, or not got your ridiculous 96 on Study Travel this turn, it would be flat out impossible.)

Things aren't impossible considering that you could easily absorb the remains of the Fingersmen and River-Bend Tribe, though. Assuming you abandon the River-Bend waystation next turn, you could manage to settle both Crystal Lake and the Fingers enough that you're unlikely to be immediately dislodged. You would be extremely vulnerable to having the great river blocked and your two settlements cut off, however.

Settling the Fingers would be a major gain, but Tymon is worried about tribal cohesion over time and being displaced by opposing tribes. He sees the strategy as high risk and high reward. In order to avert this potential catastrophe, you would have to come up with a way to maintain cultural unity and start immediately increasing your population.

(If you Settle the Fingers, you would lose your nomadic status and become semi-nomads. You're also taking on a lot of additional risk, spreading your numbers thin and exposing you to more unfriendly tribes. It's not impossible, but as soon as Tymon dies, you would be in deep if you can't figure out a solution quickly.
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Taking all of this into account I think it would be worth it to settle them now rather than let them someone else take it in the future, a future where we may not enjoy the advantage on terms of heroes or technology. For many of us who didn't care for being nomads in the first place, changing our status to semi-nomadic is a boon. The fact that this opportunity was considered impossible before without the large number of good rolls that have come our way suggests to me that we should take this chance. The risk is there, however the same could have been said for our decision last time to attack and raid the Fingers in the first place.

This is likely one of the few and only times we will be able to both be able to enact great cultural change as well as be in a good position to do so. With the advantage of both our massive martial victory this turn uniting our tribe culturally and granting us stability, as well as the fact that we still have multiple heroes to call on makes this chance much less dicey to me than it would otherwise.

Speaking merely from what the QM has posted this also seems to be the best way to incorporate the Fingers tribe as well as the River Bend tribe as settling here would shift us from nomadic to semi-nomadic. From what we know of the two both seem to be mostly stationary tribes rather than nomads like us. I doubt we could incorporate both of them into our tribe if we remained fully nomadic. With the Fingers tribe seeming to be mostly woodsmen and the River Bend tribe as mostly agricultural gatherers I think we would be a good fit if we chose to settle.

I admit there is risk in choosing this path, however I believe the long term benefits to outweigh those risks due to the fact that we know what our immediate path forward should be as well as the fact that we are uniquely positioned to do so right now. As the QM said we are unlikely to be dislodged immediately if we pursue this, and with Feodor still around I think we stand a good chance of defending ourselves.

Knowing what we do I would rather we take the risk now that we are in an ample position to do so and with a known path forward than to attempt it in the uncertain future.
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Feb 20, 2018 at 5:20 AM, finished with 464 posts and 26 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Feb 20, 2018 at 9:54 AM, finished with 474 posts and 32 votes.
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Also one thing to consider, there are also semi-nomadic ways of life, where people change where they live according to the season. We could have fortified winter quarters and a more transient summer quarter or both a winter and a summer quarter.
 
[X] [Victory] Let them die.
[X] [Memory] This was a tragedy, no memory will be made.
 
[X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
[X] [Memory] Celebrate! (Create Annual Festival)
 
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[X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
[X] [Memory] Celebrate! (Create Annual Festival)
 
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[X] [Memory] Establish competitions (Promote Folk Wrestling)

I don't really care what we'd do with them but I think wrestling would be a grand tradition to keep up. Mongol mimic, I guess, but all the cool folks are up to it.
 
[X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
[X] [Memory] Establish competitions (Promote Folk Wrestling)

I think this would be best, the tribes in this whole region are weaken by the fingers, there is no competition that can hurt us without hurting themselves. An with this trade node we could establish connections with them all and bring them under our wings as being the most stabilizing influence in the region. If we were to not do this we may end up letting them gain strength and suddenly we have competition an they may even mistaken us as the fingers as it almost happened with the other tribe.
 
[X] [Victory] Adopt them into the People.
[X] [Victory] Support them with food so that they don't perish.

[X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
[X] [Memory] Thank the Spirits (Found Holy Site)
[X] [Memory] This was a tragedy, no memory will be made.
 
[X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
[X] [Memory] Establish competitions(Promote Folk Wrestling)
 
[X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
[X] [Memory] Establish competitions(Promote Folk Wrestling)
 
[X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
[X] [Memory] Celebrate! (Create Annual Festival)

You know, I'm seeing a very familiar argument:
-We need to raise culture to make settling this site viable
-Therefore we will take the martial raising action. It will surely raise culture.
-While ignoring the "have a culture at all" action.

SV really doesn't like Festivals...
 
I do not believe we have enough manpower to hold onto the site, nor do I want to tie ourselves to a single location forever. The Fingers had five times the number of our people, and were still defeated piecemeal.

Worse yet, it's two separate locations which we will have to defend, one of them a trouble magnet of epic proportions.

[X] [Victory] Adopt them into the People.
[X] [Memory] Establish competitions (Promote Folk Wrestling)

I think that we should incorporate the River-Bend people, and move away again.
 
veekie said:
[X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
[X] [Memory] Celebrate! (Create Annual Festival)

You know, I'm seeing a very familiar argument:
-We need to raise culture to make settling this site viable
-Therefore we will take the martial raising action. It will surely raise culture.
-While ignoring the "have a culture at all" action.

SV really doesn't like Festivals...
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Redium said:
He feels that both would be equally good culturally. This is going to form some type of long-term cultural memory and celebration, the question is what becomes more dominant over time: the celebration or the competition. The difference would be in what they exalt: wrestling would exalt Excellence while festival would exalt Victory. Found Holy Place, by contrast, would exalt Spiritual Favour.
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I'll just leave this here for you to look at.
 
[X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
[X] [Memory] Establish competitions (Promote Folk Wrestling)
 
Did I vote yet?....

[X] [Victory] Adopt them into the People.
[X] [Memory] Establish competitions (Promote Folk Wrestling)
 

Looking at the map, assimilating the river-bend group will go a long way towards strengthening our hold on the Fingers. :evil:

Edit: for some reason the map isn't showing up o_O...all well, look at the front page.
 
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That's because you are trying to post imgur link as an image when it isn't one. These links can be pasted directly (and converted to MEDIA by the forum engine).

Pasted as link:


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Huh, I kinda want to see what lies to the south of Fingers' settlement. Probably some other tribe they raided. Maybe we should try to find out?
 
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Yea! Settling is winning right now
Adhoc vote count started by Ghostdevil on Feb 20, 2018 at 11:12 AM, finished with 474 posts and 32 votes.
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