Not really an argument you want to make; arguably half the Servants in the entire War weren't allowed to win because of Plot rather than power. Lancer lost his Grade A Master Bazett, and then spent almost every single battle being unable to fight to his full potential. Herk is kept braindead without ME stat boosts because Ilya is spiteful. Saber is kept crippled because Shirou sucks as a Master. Caster's original Master was a fucking moron and wasted all of her Command Seals. The Plot works against a lot of people.
Well, yeah, that is the argument I wanted to make, because I'm fine with all those people being quite dangerous, too. I'm not sure what argument you think I'm trying to make but that's certainly not something I have a problem with. "Archer's powers are dangerous and not really weak at all" isn't "Archer is better than everyone forever" so I'm going to be kind of insulted if that's what you thought I was saying.

All the Heroic Spirits could have potentially won the war, if various things hadn't screwed them over (although I agree Gilgamesh would have been a frontrunner, all else being equal).
 
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Like what happened with F/Z Lancer. I saw a... not sure what to call it. It basically laid out what would have likely happened with everyone had Arturia been Arthur instead... Lancer won. I'm inclined to agree. At least if his master didn't fuck him over somehow as well. *Shrug*

Yeah, apparently F/Z Lancer had a strong chance of winning the entire War. He just got shafted hard on Master compatibility.

Which kinda goes to show that for as OP as Servants are, their abilities are not the beginning and end of the fight. How a Master uses their Command Seals can upset the entire table.

It really would take A+ luck to pull of the impossibility of him losing so much.
That being said isn't there like 100 ends that involve Shiro dying before the end right?

There's a bunch of Bad and Dead ends, yeah. Nowhere near a 100, but plenty of them. So require some kinda OOC actions or Shirou being an even bigger moron than usual though.

Well, yeah, that is the argument I wanted to make, because I'm fine with all those people being quite dangerous, too. I'm not sure what argument you think I'm trying to make but that's certainly not something I have a problem with.

It seemed to me that you're trying to argue that Archer would be beating people more people if Plot didn't keep him from winning, so UBW is more powerful than its canon performance indicates. Except we don't really know what would happen then, and if everyone else is also supposed to be at their best, then why should we assume 100% Archer does any better against the other 100% Servants?


Also, it occurs to me that this is after you stated you preferred to go with what's shown in the text, and now you seem to be favoring the speculation. Unsure how to respond to this.
 
It seemed to me that you're trying to argue that Archer would be beating people more people if Plot didn't keep him from winning, so UBW is more powerful than its canon performance indicates. Except we don't really know what would happen then, and if everyone else is also supposed to be at their best, then why should we assume 100% Archer does any better against the other 100% Servants?
What? Who's arguing about a death match with 100% servants? I think you really don't get what I'm saying, now.

Hm... Okay. What I'm saying is usefulness and power are not predicated on success and success does not equal either of those. If it did, "Farts" would be canonically more useful and powerful than Kiba's beast transformation jutsu.

Canon shows that Archer's powers can be very dangerous (see Herakles) and "Flandre Scarlet" is not protected by plot armor, so we should be treat him as dangerous.
 
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What? Who's arguing about a death match with 100% servants? I think you really don't get what I'm saying, now.

To be honest, and I'm sincerely not trying to be rude, I kinda wonder if you do because you seem to be shifting the goalposts a lot. Here's where you seem to have started:

Well, it's "Word of God" anyway. Canon is another thing. I take the text when presented with any conflict between Word of God and text and the Text is that Archer is pretty effective with that power.

Then this:

EDIT: Hah, this time I was the one ninja'd by the author, as I was going to point out that he lost (because of course he did, Archer's not allowed to win by the Plot rather than power) but he did really well against Herakles with Unlimited Blade Works.

And Berserker's got his limitations, but he's no pushover.

And now:

Hm... Okay. What I'm saying is usefulness and power are not predicated on success and success does not equal either of those. If it did, "Farts" would be canonically more useful than Kiba's beast transformation jutsu.

Canon shows that Archer's powers can be very dangerous (see Herakles) and "Flandre Scarlet" is not protected by plot armor, so we should be treat him as dangerous.

If you really just want to establish Archer as dangerous, then sure, I agree. I'm pretty sure this is the only time in this discussion you've brought up Archer's danger in relation to Flan, but okay. There's plenty of anti-healing NPs that Flan would blithely block with her face because she relies on her regeneration to keep her alive.

He was just using his secret Noble Phantasm. Don't rag on him too much.

It's impossible to hate AUO CAST OFF.

Hey, I'm a Gilgamesh fan. I like Goldie, and like to imagine his real fighting style is good old fashioned fisticuffs and wrasslin'.

He'd still have won the fight if he just put on his armor and punched Shirou in the face until Shirou stopped moving.
 
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TIf you really just want to establish Archer as dangerous, then sure, I agree. I'm pretty sure this is the only time in this discussion you've brought up Archer's danger in relation to Flan, but okay. There's plenty of anti-healing NPs that Flan would blithely block with her face because she relies on her regeneration to keep her alive.
Hm... I think I just took as a given that if I was bringing up his abilities were dangerous in the quest thread I meant in relation to us, I suppose I didn't spell that out.

But yes, "Archer is dangerous" is pretty much the entirety of what I was trying to convey with an emphasis on Eye of the Mind and Unlimited Bladeworks as being two of the reasons. Also, I found " a little troublesome" and "killed Herakles six times offscreen" as somewhat contradictory.

EDIT: Also you're claiming the conversation starts way too late. This digression didn't start with the post you've indicated, it started Here:
Hahaha. HaHaHa! HAHAHAHAHAAAAAHHHHhhhhh...
Oh Flandre, as long as he doesn't figure out something that'd one-shot you, he'll probably be one of the most enjoyable fights you'll have here.

It's kind of weird; if you look at Archer's stats, he's kind of a chump as far as Servants go. I mean, he's got Luck E. *gunshots*

But seriously, he's got basically the weakest statline of all the Servants barring his Noble Phantasm. Only thing I can think of to really explain it is that Eye of the Mind (True) is ridiculous.
And so is his Noble Phantasm. And the two combined have horrifying synergy.

Which, as you'll notice is with a post about Flan fighting Archer.
 
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Hm... I think I just took as a given that if I was bringing up his abilities were dangerous in the quest thread I meant in relation to us, I suppose I didn't spell that out.

Fair.

But yes, "Archer is dangerous" is pretty much the entirety of what I was trying to convey with an emphasis on Eye of the Mind and Unlimited Bladeworks as being two of the reasons. Also, I found " a little troublesome" and "killed Herakles six times offscreen" as somewhat contradictory.

Herk's fight is kinda extenuating circumstances on account of his madness, relying on his God Hand, and Archer's versatility letting him beat God Hood more often than most heroes can manage. And again, off-screen fight where we don't get to see what he actually did, just the results.


EDIT: Also you're claiming the conversation starts way too late. This digression didn't start with the post you've indicated, it started Here:





Which, as you'll notice is with a post about Flan fighting Archer.

I didn't count those as part of the discussion; my bad.

Let bygones be bygones?
 
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Hey, I'm a Gilgamesh fan. I like Goldie, and like to imagine his real fighting style is good old fashioned fisticuffs and wrasslin'.

He'd still have won the fight if he just put on his armor and punched Shirou in the face until Shirou stopped moving.
Reminds me of Tonks Quest. He had the equivalent of the Unified Language for Martial Arts apparently. And then there's that potion he can drink to go all out, the one that makes those red lines on his body. Apparently he brawls when he's like that.
Yeah, probably. Least it ended amicably; seen more than enough cases where it doesn't.
All of us have done that a few times.
 
It's kind of weird; if you look at Archer's stats, he's kind of a chump as far as Servants go. I mean, he's got Luck E. *gunshots*

But seriously, he's got basically the weakest statline of all the Servants barring his Noble Phantasm. Only thing I can think of to really explain it is that Eye of the Mind (True) is ridiculous.
Not complicated at all. He doesn't have the power to win ANY fight head on.

What he DOES have is:
-UBW - Analysis - The ability to discern the true identity of every Servant via their weapon, as well as major parts of their legend
-UBW - Projection - The ability to create a tool suitable to every situation.
-Eye of Mind - The ability to figure out how to exploit every bit of knowledge he has to win.
-Being Emiya Shirou of every route - The knowledge of how this Grail War goes in all possible routes where Shirou survives to become a Hero.
-However, much like Gilgamesh, Tokiomi, and Rin he doesn't actually have a goal which requires him to win the War. He's not really fighting to win
--His goals are then to:
---Try not to kill Rin
---Try not to kill Taiga
---Try not to kill Sakura
---Try not to kill Issei
---Try not to kill Ilya
---Try not to kill Saber
---Not kill too many innocents in the process
---Shirou no become Hero. This incidentally, also requires that Shirou survives, his objective is to break his dream, killing him is pointless.

Which means essentially, he's the guy who's SUPPOSED to bring out the specific bane, weakness or counter of every opponent he intends to fight seriously. So compatibility:
-Cu Chulann - Medium, the Hound has a large number of banes, of which include a weapon destined to kill him. But he's resistant to ranged attacks, so he can force an engagement.

-Medusa - High, Medusa has a weapon which has specifically killed her.

-Heracles - Poor, Heracles' weaknesses(Ilya, or getting him to put on poison from a fooled loved one) are not something he is willing or able to exploit, and he simply doesn't have the stats to do the Gilgamesh thing.

-Sasaki Kojiro - Medium, No specific weaknesses, though being stuck on the Gate means he never has to engage up close instead of with arrows.

-Hassan - Medium, Kotomine revealed that Hassan counts as an evil spirit, which exorcising and holy weapons work on, and he is able to target that. But resistant to ranged attacks.

-Arthuria - High, Specific vulnerabilities to spear type weapons and dragonslayer weapons. If only he was willing to kill her huh?

-Medea - Medium, no specific vulnerabilities, though she's physically weak enough to take out the normal way outside of Ryudou Temple. However, he cannot actually just blow up the temple because that'd kill Issei. A threat in a different manner, since she's the only one likely to figure out how UBW works.

-Gilgamesh - Poor, major fatal vulnerability in the form of his pride, and ability to manipulate that. However, he lacks the power to win even so, and is ironically too strong to actually win like Shirou did.

Summary: Archer's best suited to killing the Servants he has no intentions of killing. Emiya intensifies.
 
-UBW - Analysis - The ability to discern the true identity of every Servant via their weapon, as well as major parts of their legend

I don't think he ever actually does this, or shows he can take out select knowledge like that. Although maybe Shirou identified some weapons like when he fought Gilgamesh in Fate? I'd have to reread.

-Being Emiya Shirou of every route - The knowledge of how this Grail War goes in all possible routes where Shirou survives to become a Hero.

Definitely not, actually. His memory actually is shot to hell when he's summoned, and after this incarnations memories are sent back to the Throne they're pretty much forgotten as soon as the next set hits. That's the tragedy of Archer's fate in UBW; he gets a moment's reprieve on the Throne, but then he's back to his self-hating, suicidal self. I don't think he knows what's up with Heaven's Feel route either.

Most likely, once he starts getting his memories back throughout the route (he mentions starting to remember his past life in UBW I believe), it's probably just his first life. The life Rin sees through the Servant dreams.

---Shirou no become Hero. This incidentally, also requires that Shirou survives, his objective is to break his dream, killing him is pointless.

No, he's good with killing Shirou. He admits the odds of him actually paradoxing himself out of existence are pretty low, and that fighting Shirou is mostly just raging at himself and his own issues, but Shirou's survival is absolutely not required.
 
I don't think he ever actually does this, or shows he can take out select knowledge like that. Although maybe Shirou identified some weapons like when he fought Gilgamesh in Fate? I'd have to reread.
It's an attribute of UBW. The moment Shirou sees a weapon, it is added to UBW, granting him knowledge of all it's materials, the production process, and the experiences the weapon has been through(which for most Servants, would include most of their adventures).

This has only failed on Ea, which predates reality as we know it and cannot be interpreted by it.
He can understand Excalibur, but is unable to create 'hopes and dreams' in metallic form, so he cannot create it either.
 
It's an attribute of UBW. The moment Shirou sees a weapon, it is added to UBW, granting him knowledge of all it's materials, the production process, and the experiences the weapon has been through(which for most Servants, would include most of their adventures).

This has only failed on Ea, which predates reality as we know it and cannot be interpreted by it.
He can understand Excalibur, but is unable to create 'hopes and dreams' in metallic form, so he cannot create it either.

That's not the same as pulling out its name or what the Servant did with it. I might recall Shirou pulling a few names out of thin air, but he definitely didn't look at Excalibur and automatically know all about her adventures. Don't think he knew Caliburn's name either at first, although again I'd have to check,

As a note, it seems like everyone recognizes Excalibur on sight so it's kind of an exception in a lot of ways.
 
That's not the same as pulling out its name or what the Servant did with it. I might recall Shirou pulling a few names out of thin air, but he definitely didn't look at Excalibur and automatically know all about her adventures. Don't think he knew Caliburn's name either at first, although again I'd have to check,
It's a requirement of Projecting the weapon, the part which makes it more than a fake, with actual powers:
-Understanding the composition
-Excelling the process of creation
-Empathizing with it's experiences <- This is what makes a Traced phantasm instead of an inert copy with no powers.

Thats what UBW pulls out
 
Votes are not locked.
[X] Talk to Caster.
- [X] About the vampire.
- [X] About the other Servants.
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[X] Talk to Caster.
- [X] About the vampire.
[X] Take a nap until evening.
1

[X] Talk to Caster.
- [X] About the vampire.
- [X] About the other Servants.
[X] Take a nap until evening.
2
... I need to stop looking up things that I don't recognize and simply accept the fact that some things are not worth knowing.
 
It's a requirement of Projecting the weapon, the part which makes it more than a fake, with actual powers:
-Understanding the composition
-Excelling the process of creation
-Empathizing with it's experiences <- This is what makes a Traced phantasm instead of an inert copy with no powers.

Thats what UBW pulls out

And Shirou would probably only understand everything from the perspective of the sword, not the person wielding it. I remember his steps too; but what exactly goes on in each isn't clear, because this is the result of Shirou's extremely inhuman thought process when it comes to swords. It's like he operates on a different OS from the rest of humanity, and some stuff doesn't translate well.

And the swords are only imitations; Shirou does make mistakes in his 'assumptions' about them.

Got a canon example of Shirou not knowing an NP by looking at it, at the very least.

"I'm not trying to disturb you. It's about his Noble Phantasm, right?
I saw Dainsleif, Herpe, Durandal, Vajra, and Kaladbolg. Oh, and I saw Gae Bolg.
I couldn't identify the Chinese one, but those are the most famous ones, right?"


Not definitive either way, but yeah. Shirou at the very least doesn't auto-know any NP he sees, and that's pretty much the only basis we have for what goes through Archer's head when he looks at them or reproduces them.
 
Yep.

But that's still a massive amount of information about a given hero just from their weapon's perspective, given that some of them are practically married to those.

Considering the weapon doesn't exactly have senses, I'm not really convinced that Shirou can extract that information.

Honestly, I don't really feel like digging through even more scenes of Shirou tracing to deduce what exactly he knows when he looks at an NP. I think what I found already is enough.
 
Yep.

But that's still a massive amount of information about a given hero just from their weapon's perspective, given that some of them are practically married to those.
Yes but everything Shiro can do archer does far far better. And other then assassin Archer knows who every other servant on sight. He knew Sabers Identity, he knew Lancers identity, he knew casters identity, and he easily discovers Bersekers identity.
 
Votes are locked.
[X] Talk to Caster.
- [X] About the vampire.
- [X] About the other Servants.
1

[X] Talk to Caster.
- [X] About the vampire.
[X] Take a nap until evening.
1

[X] Talk to Caster.
- [X] About the vampire.
- [X] About the other Servants.
[X] Take a nap until evening.
2
 
Talking to Caster
[X] Talk to Caster.
- [X] About the vampire.
- [X] About the other Servants.
[X] Take a nap until evening.


You drop from the window and turn to leave the room; Deis is probably trying to work on something magical, and it's apparently something she wants to keep secret from Caster, or at least she wants to keep the mechanics hidden. Your hostess, however, might be free to answer questions, so you leave the room to look for her, finding her in the kitchen, of all places. Still wearing her cloak, although with the hood down, she's looking through the refrigerator and cabinets, taking notes. Perhaps she's planning on going shopping later. You wait for her to notice you, grinning at her surprised jump.

"May I ask you a few questions?" She hesitates, taking a moment to recover her balance, then nods.

"You may. Please follow me." She settles her cloak over her dress and strides out of the kitchen, leading you back to the dining area. She waves her hand, doing something magical, but nothing that seems to affect the room. "What is it you wished to know?"

"I came across a human drained of blood while I was out last night. That means there's a vampire in the city, and if you know where he is, I'd like to go see him." Caster frowns and sits at the table before shaking head.

"A vampire? … There are no Dead Apostles in Fuyuki. Tell me about this human."

"A boy, maybe around that Emiya's age, leaning over the railing at the big bridge over the river. He wasn't quite dead when I passed him, but he'd lost enough blood that he probably died before anyone found him." Caster's frown deepens and she holds her hand in front of her mouth. After a moment, her face clears.

"It was probably Rider, then." You tilt your head in confusion, and Caster waves her hand over the table. A vague map of the city blurs into existence over the surface, becoming sharpened and more defined over a few seconds. One area of the town in the southwest is highlighted in black. "Rider's Master is incompetent and not qualified to handle a Servant, so he has her attack humans and drain their blood to get the mana he cannot provide her." You tuck that away if you ever need it - attacking the Master should affect the Servant. An image of a building shimmers into existence over the black area - it's dark and closed-in, and it looks like a place you wouldn't mind staying in. "Rider's Master lives here; Rider herself is probably there as well." You nod; hunting away from your home is common sense, especially if you're going to leave your target out in the open.

"So unless someone is better at hiding than you are at finding them, it probably wasn't a vampire. Thank you, Caster. I did have some questions about the other Servants as well, actually. I'm probably going to be going out at night, so I may run into them, but also if they attack here and I help, it would make things easier if I knew more about them." Caster smiles and several parts of the map light up - a dull grey far to the south of the temple, red bordering the black, and blue in the northwestern part of the city. More buildings appear over the areas: a castle over the grey; a comfortable-looking home over the red; and an open Japanese house over the blue.

"Lancer's Master I have not been able to identify, and Lancer himself is quick enough to evade my searching, so I cannot tell you where he is likely to be. Assassin considered him a worthy opponent, and while Lancer did not fully engage himself, he still fought well enough to disengage without effort after a short while. He appears to merely be scouting the capabilities of his opponents, and is deliberately holding back some measure of his true strength. Rider, as I said, is a Servant wielded by an incompetent Master, thus weakening her." The red area lights up. "This is Archer's domain; I believe that he is currently unaware that Rider lairs so near to him. If he knew, they would undoubtedly fight. For an archer, he is strangely proficient with swords, so he may be a threat -" She breaks off, glowering, as you shake your head.

"He uses short swords, right? It's a matter of reach and commitment. Assassin has a long sword, and Lancer has a spear, so if you can get in close with shorter weapons, you have a big advantage. His swords, however, are short, so they're great for defending, but not as good on the attack, because the only way he can use them is by somehow getting past his opponent's weapon without being cut. Unless he's significantly faster, though, they just need to move back. I only saw him a little, but we should have the same engagement range, which favors me more than it does him." Caster stares at you for a moment, then bows her head, smiling.

"As you say. I am no fighter, after all." She straightens and her eyes gleam as the blue area is highlighted. "This is Saber's territory. The boy is an incompetent Master as well, weakening her, but she would be so much more with a better Master. She is quite an exquisite Servant … white, I think. Yes, white, at least to start …." She starts to mutter something to herself, then stiffens as you tilt your head curiously. She shakes her head and clears her throat. "In any case, Saber should be less of a threat than Lancer, even if she is more capable than him; she can't risk herself the same way he can because she receives less support from her Master." The final area of the map is highlighted. "And … Berserker. A nearly unstoppable mountain of a warrior, he is also backed by a top-class Master. If you try to match your strength against his, you will lose." You nod, smiling.

"I know. I've got a few things planned for when I meet him again." You pause, tapping your lips. "Is there anything … special I should know about any of them? When Deis offered to dismantle the seal on Saber's sword, they said something about recognizing who a Servant could be by their weapons. Do you know who anyone else might be apart from Heracles?" Caster frowns and shakes her head.

"This early, revealing a Noble Phantasm could be disastrous. Lancer is a hero from Ireland; his spear, it seems, does not miss the target's heart. Rider, Saber, and Archer have not yet revealed themselves, but as you said, Saber will be known once her sword is revealed. Berserker … he will return to life should you manage to kill him, and as you saw, weak attacks will not affect him at all." She doesn't detail herself or Sasaki, of course - it would be a hugely trusting thing for her to do, and she is merely your hostess, not an ally. And it's not as if you've told her everything about yourself, either. "… If I may ask, Flandre, what were seeking at the libraries?" Her voice is soft and you bow your head before grinning at her.

"Stories and legends; at first I was thinking only to get more information on Heracles, but then I decided grab anything that might be useful, so if I can find out who some of these Servants are, I can maybe find some weaknesses, or things to keep track of. I can share anything I learn with you, of course." She stares at you, almost managing to keep the surprise off her face, then smiles and bows her own head.

"Please do. I hate to be a poor hostess, but there are some things I need to prepare. If it's not too much trouble …?" You giggle.

"No, not a problem at all - I was going to take a nap, actually, so I'll just head back to your room. Ah, or should we move? I don't want to force you out, so …." She shakes her head.

"It's fine. Rest well." You rise and curtsy before withdrawing, curling up in the same corner you did yesterday. You wonder if you should trust Caster as much as she seems to be trusting you, or if you should assume she's just better at putting up protections than you are at seeing them, then shrug to yourself. If she tries anything, you'll just have to kill her. Without knowing what you're capable of, she can't put up real defenses that matter, after all ….


When you wake up, Ershin is gone. Deis left a note saying that she was going to check something out and not to worry, though, so she probably has Caster's permission. But the sun is going down, so now you can do things!


What do you do?

[ ] Explore the city.

[ ] Attack a Master's house.
- [ ] Saber
- [ ] Rider
- [ ] Archer
- [ ] Berserker

[ ] Investigate a Master's house.
- [ ] Saber
- [ ] Rider
- [ ] Archer
- [ ] Berserker

[ ] Curl up with the books.
- [ ] Focus on any Irish stories first.
- [ ] Focus on any Greek stories first.

[ ] Other?
 
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